Why is the average firearm owner, an unsafe gun owner?

[Scatty Kitty]

Yeah. It is obvious that your mind is closed to new experiences and learning things. You are so afraid of the possibility that you might have been wrong. Sad. Just so sad.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I told you for health reasons I can't handle firearms. And you decide that I must be lying. Cool.

 

[JMB1911A1]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I told you for health reasons I can't handle firearms. And you decide that I must be lying. Cool.

Fine. But don't try to force your own insecurities on the rest of us.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

1. I provided an excellent source and abstract.
You want to “ test the internal validity “ but don’t have the research access to download it.
Lmao.
Face it. There is no reason for you to question the abstract.

I can question the abstract if all you can do is cite an abstract. You can't just cite an abstract and be done with it. That's not good reasoning. If anything that's just lazy.

2. How would they change it if they don’t have the original code? And why would they “ change it in the first place?
If I’ve become suicidal they should remove it from my place of residence.
The point being , it’s silly to think storing ammo in a different place than a firearm protects the person who places the firearm and ammo.

Except for the gun locks that are given away that have at least an anecdotal effect on suicide rates.

3. Well except when I change the code back because I am the owner of the safe. Pretty easy when you call the safe company to service your safe.

Means restrictions, doesn't mean they can't be overcome. Not sure what your point is.

4. Except that’s not the reality we live in. We have millions upon millions of gun owners who are not depressed, not suicidal nor will ever be.
But you would rather spend time and effort on them “ being safe “.

Rather spend the resources and time making sure that those rural areas HAVE the mental health available.
You know , mental health that will stop suicide from anyone regardless of owning a gun or not.

“There are stories out there with gun shop owners trying to stop suicides in their area by providing gun locks”

Right because someone suicidal is going to be stopped by a gun lock THEY OWN.

I hate to say this, but there are millions of gun owners who do become depressed. We know, statistically speaking that 50% of Americans will have a major mental illness at least once in their life. If roughly 40% of Americans live in a household with a firearm or own a firearm, then we need to seriously be looking at these safety issues. And yeah. They can work. Because we know they do.

"
Since 2018, Morse has stored roughly 400 firearms, safely keeping them until their owners were ready to reclaim them, potentially saving numerous lives. Louisiana has passed legislation shielding gun store owners who hold onto guns from liability litigation.

Morse and others like him can make a big difference in stopping suicides by firearm because chances are high that owners who don't have easy access to their guns during a moment of crisis won't die, said Rutgers professor Michael Anestis, a clinical psychologist. Over 70% of those who survive a suicide attempt don't try again, he said.

Can gun storage programs stop suicides? This researcher says safeguarding a firearm "until the crisis subsides" can make all the difference.

Advocates for these initiatives say they can save lives through safely storing firearms for people at risk of suicide.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Fine. But don't try to force your own insecurities on the rest of us.

Given how the gun owners on PF have responded, I'm justified in saying what I said. You can pretend otherwise but you do you.

 

[JMB1911A1]

I can question the abstract if all you can do is cite an abstract. You can't just cite an abstract and be done with it. That's not good reasoning. If anything that's just lazy.



Except for the gun locks that are given away that have at least an anecdotal effect on suicide rates.



Means restrictions, doesn't mean they can't be overcome. Not sure what your point is.



I hate to say this, but there are millions of gun owners who do become depressed. We know, statistically speaking that 50% of Americans will have a major mental illness at least once in their life. If roughly 40% of Americans live in a household with a firearm or own a firearm, then we need to seriously be looking at these safety issues. And yeah. They can work. Because we know they do.

"
Since 2018, Morse has stored roughly 400 firearms, safely keeping them until their owners were ready to reclaim them, potentially saving numerous lives. Louisiana has passed legislation shielding gun store owners who hold onto guns from liability litigation.

Morse and others like him can make a big difference in stopping suicides by firearm because chances are high that owners who don't have easy access to their guns during a moment of crisis won't die, said Rutgers professor Michael Anestis, a clinical psychologist. Over 70% of those who survive a suicide attempt don't try again, he said.

Can gun storage programs stop suicides? This researcher says safeguarding a firearm "until the crisis subsides" can make all the difference.

Advocates for these initiatives say they can save lives through safely storing firearms for people at risk of suicide.

www.cbsnews.com

Please provide a cite for the bolded.

 

[jaeger19]

I can question the abstract if all you can do is cite an abstract. You can't just cite an abstract and be done with it. That's not good reasoning. If anything that's just lazy.



Except for the gun locks that are given away that have at least an anecdotal effect on suicide rates.



Means restrictions, doesn't mean they can't be overcome. Not sure what your point is.



I hate to say this, but there are millions of gun owners who do become depressed. We know, statistically speaking that 50% of Americans will have a major mental illness at least once in their life. If roughly 40% of Americans live in a household with a firearm or own a firearm, then we need to seriously be looking at these safety issues. And yeah. They can work. Because we know they do.

"
Since 2018, Morse has stored roughly 400 firearms, safely keeping them until their owners were ready to reclaim them, potentially saving numerous lives. Louisiana has passed legislation shielding gun store owners who hold onto guns from liability litigation.

Morse and others like him can make a big difference in stopping suicides by firearm because chances are high that owners who don't have easy access to their guns during a moment of crisis won't die, said Rutgers professor Michael Anestis, a clinical psychologist. Over 70% of those who survive a suicide attempt don't try again, he said.

Can gun storage programs stop suicides? This researcher says safeguarding a firearm "until the crisis subsides" can make all the difference.

Advocates for these initiatives say they can save lives through safely storing firearms for people at risk of suicide.

www.cbsnews.com

1. I most certainly can cite an abstract and expect if someone has questions on validity to get the research . Cripes YOU CITED A SIMPLE ARTICLE of someone’s opinion with no research whatsoever.!!
So spare me your angst because you are too lazy to actually read the research cited. Not to mention I cited ANOTHER study that supported the abstract,

2. What “ anecdotal” effect. There wasn’t even that according to your post. Just that the gun dealer “ thought it would be”,

3. You know exactly my point. You are being purposely obtuse .
The level of means restriction matters in regards to its effectiveness.
Moving a knife from one side of the kitchen to another so that a suicidal person has to take three more steps is NOT meaningful means restriction. Nor is a person placing their firearm in one place and their ammo in another a meaningful means restriction .

4. Yet, there are not millions of those gun owners committing suicide . So no, you don’t need to be looking at firearm safety issues.
Frankly if you want to reduce suicide instead of worrying about firearms, we need to improve mental health access and treatment so that people don’t become suicidal period.

What do you say to a man whose son has just died from hanging himself? “ Gee aren’t you glad your son didn’t use a firearm? Aren’t you glad we spent resources making sure Jaeger separated his firearms from his ammo instead of getting your son access to mental health?

5. Yeah no. Sorry but the research shows , which I cited by the way, that suicide completers don’t have “ impulsive moments of crisis”. Instead they form a plan and choose a lethal method. Which isn’t going to be stopped simply by them placing a firearm in one spot and their ammo in another.

Suicide attempters CHOOSE a less lethal method and in all likelihood given how ubiquitous firearms are in us society, they had ready availability of firearms but again chose a less lethal method.

So this idea that making millions of gun owners put their firearms in one place and their ammo in another is going to reduce suicide is pure bunk.
It’s a fairytale that’s not based on the research.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

1. I most certainly can cite an abstract and expect if someone has questions on validity to get the research . Cripes YOU CITED A SIMPLE ARTICLE of someone’s opinion with no research whatsoever.!!
So spare me your angst because you are too lazy to actually read the research cited. Not to mention I cited ANOTHER study that supported the abstract,

You didn't cite anything that supported what the claim is. I did cite. Multiple times. You still have to cite the article, and show me that the actual article and not the abstract support your 'claim', whatever it is.

2. What “ anecdotal” effect. There wasn’t even that according to your post. Just that the gun dealer “ thought it would be”,

Yes it was. You just didn't read the source.

3. You know exactly my point. You are being purposely obtuse .
The level of means restriction matters in regards to its effectiveness.
Moving a knife from one side of the kitchen to another so that a suicidal person has to take three more steps is NOT meaningful means restriction. Nor is a person placing their firearm in one place and their ammo in another a meaningful means restriction .

Except for the gun locks which have worked according to psychologists. I'm sorry but you don't have anything that supports your claim. You are not talking about means restrictions. You're talking about planning out suicide attempts. Which are not the same things.

4. Yet, there are not millions of those gun owners committing suicide . So no, you don’t need to be looking at firearm safety issues.
Frankly if you want to reduce suicide instead of worrying about firearms, we need to improve mental health access and treatment so that people don’t become suicidal period.

Which is what I was talking about with NRA instructors needing to know resources to support mental health among those who go to them. Which you said it wasn't reasonable or possible for them to do. Which says more about gun instructors than anything else.

What do you say to a man whose son has just died from hanging himself? “ Gee aren’t you glad your son didn’t use a firearm? Aren’t you glad we spent resources making sure Jaeger separated his firearms from his ammo instead of getting your son access to mental health?

I say what I said to the person who told me he needs help because a family member he was close to died. "I'm sorry, my condolences."

How cruel of you.

5. Yeah no. Sorry but the research shows , which I cited by the way, that suicide completers don’t have “ impulsive moments of crisis”. Instead they form a plan and choose a lethal method. Which isn’t going to be stopped simply by them placing a firearm in one spot and their ammo in another.

Suicide attempters CHOOSE a less lethal method and in all likelihood given how ubiquitous firearms are in us society, they had ready availability of firearms but again chose a less lethal method.

So this idea that making millions of gun owners put their firearms in one place and their ammo in another is going to reduce suicide is pure bunk.
It’s a fairytale that’s not based on the research.

So instead of the studies I cited you're going to misinterpret the results of your studies? Planning out suicide attempts is not the same as means restrictions. Here I'll give you studies:

A report in 2023 concluded that there is moderate evidence that laws in the USA preventing child access to firearms (eg, in households) reduced firearm self-injuries (and homicides) among young people and that laws setting the minimum age to purchase firearms at 21 years decreased suicides among young people.30

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468266724001579

 

[jaeger19]

You didn't cite anything that supported what the claim is. I did cite. Multiple times. You still have to cite the article, and show me that the actual article and not the abstract support your 'claim', whatever it is.



Yes it was. You just didn't read the source.



Except for the gun locks which have worked according to psychologists. I'm sorry but you don't have anything that supports your claim. You are not talking about means restrictions. You're talking about planning out suicide attempts. Which are not the same things.



Which is what I was talking about with NRA instructors needing to know resources to support mental health among those who go to them. Which you said it wasn't reasonable or possible for them to do. Which says more about gun instructors than anything else.



I say what I said to the person who told me he needs help because a family member he was close to died. "I'm sorry, my condolences."

How cruel of you.



So instead of the studies I cited you're going to misinterpret the results of your studies? Planning out suicide attempts is not the same as means restrictions. Here I'll give you studies:

A

1. BULLCRAP . Sure I did. I cited an abstract in impulsivity and suicide and a separate study on impusivity and suicide. And I cited a study on the difference between suicides completers ( who choose highly lethal means like firearms) and suicide attempters ( who do not choose highly lethal means like firearms)

These studies show conclusively that suicide by people who choose firearms is not some impulsive act and that merely separating ammo and firearms is not going to change their behavior.

Someone who is going to be a suicide completed and choose a firearm ( according to the citations) is going to formulate a plan, likely leave a note etc. and in no way are they going to be deterred in the less than the minute it takes to retrieve their firearm from the gun safe and ammo from the ammo safe.

You cited opinion articles on what some individuals thought would help stop suicide.
No science nothing but opinion.

Then you cited evidence of suicide ATTEMPTERS. Which as my citation shows differ greatly from those that chose a firearm ( suicide completers). In other words, your evidence is conpletely invalid.

Then you cite evidence of “ means restriction” in people who were suicidal.
First of all, if they were an attempter ? They wouldn’t choose a firearm anyway. Second those tgat would choose a firearm? The means restriction wasn’t merely putting a firearm in one safe and ammo in another.

It was completely removing access to the firearm.
Which YOU ARENT GOING TO DO PROACTIVELY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARENT SUICIDAL .BECAUSE WHY THE HECK WOULD I PURCHASE A FIREARM ONLY TO PUT IT IN A SAFE WHERE I HAD NO ACCESS!!!??!!

2. No it wasn’t even anecdotal.
But ho ahead let’s see it again.

3. That’s right. And that’s because the key to reducing suicide is not making non suicidal people follow your ridiculous regulations It’s getting people access to mental health.

4. Nothing cruel about me. What’s cruel is anti gunners like you spouting about caring about suicide when all your regulations due is distract attention and resources away from getting people actual help.

5. No. I understand what the studies I cite mean. They mean suicide completers differ from suicide attempters and that suicide completers are not impulsive actors.

You instead take data on suicide attempters and assume it applies to suicide completers .
As shown by the research this is completely erroneous.

6. Sweet baby Jesus.!!! Look at you now run around with the goal posts in your arms.

So now you go from the majority of gun owners being “ safer” if THEY keep their firearms and ammo separated.

To now all of a suddenly “ but but children”
A completely different discussion.

But yeah, duh IF you have young children or older teen children that can’t be trusted you should restrict their access.
Duh. And the vast vast majority of gun owners know this as the number of gun accidents/ suicides compared to gun prevalence is extremely low. . And in these cases it’s certainly NOT safer to store ammunition and firearms separately. It’s safer to store them together where kids simply don’t have access . Like a gun safe.

And what about the majority of gun owners that dontt have a child at home?
Huh. How does having them store a firearm in one location and ammo in another location , both of which they of course have access to reduce self harm .?? How is it safer?

Stop with the silliness.

 

[SMTA]

Please provide a cite for the bolded.

Bullshit can be cited?

 

[Bum]

That would be sources 1 and 2 from the OP. Do you need me to cite it for you?

Nearly 83 million firearms owners in the US and you quote a sample size of 1,444?
You know that simply will not fly.

 

[RF667799]

Made up criteria anyway.

"To be safe, firearms must be stored disassembled. Disassembly must be accomplished while the owner hops on one foot. Studies show very few firearm owners comply with this standard. Our conclusion is most firearm owners are unsafe."

 

[hecatmoggie]

Since 2018, Morse has stored roughly 400 firearms, safely keeping them until their owners were ready to reclaim them, potentially saving numerous lives.

why not do that with knives, car keys, ropes ... you know, really save a bunch of lives ?


c'mon, the problem isn't guns, its people being suicidal ..... the CORE problem again is not the guns, it never is, is it ?

 

[JMB1911A1]

Made up criteria anyway.

"To be safe, firearms must be stored disassembled. Disassembly must be accomplished while the owner hops on one foot. Studies show very few firearm owners comply with this standard. Our conclusion is most firearm owners are unsafe."

I believe that was the DC standard until Dick Heller kicked them in the nuts.

 

[Rich2018]

Nearly 83 million firearms owners in the US and you quote a sample size of 1,444?
You know that simply will not fly.

What size sample do you consider to be representative ?

 

[Scatty Kitty]

why not do that with knives, car keys, ropes ... you know, really save a bunch of lives ?


c'mon, the problem isn't guns, its people being suicidal ..... the CORE problem again is not the guns, it never is, is it ?

Correct. The core problem is deaths by despair. However knives aren't the cause of 40% of all suicides in the US.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Nearly 83 million firearms owners in the US and you quote a sample size of 1,444?
You know that simply will not fly.

Welcome to statistics.

 

[RF667799]

Correct. The core problem is deaths by despair. However knives aren't the cause of 40% of all suicides in the US.

Neither are guns. You'll never grasp reality until you abandon baby talk.

 

[RF667799]

Welcome to statistics.

Tell him.

Tell him how 700 or so out of the sample don't stand on one leg whistling Twinkle Twinkle while storing their guns (which we've decided must happen for safety), and so it is apparent that the average gun owner is unsafe. (We'll save defining "average gun owner" for later.)

 

[Scatty Kitty]

1. BULLCRAP . Sure I did. I cited an abstract in impulsivity and suicide and a separate study on impusivity and suicide. And I cited a study on the difference between suicides completers ( who choose highly lethal means like firearms) and suicide attempters ( who do not choose highly lethal means like firearms)


These studies show conclusively that suicide by people who choose firearms is not some impulsive act and that merely separating ammo and firearms is not going to change their behavior.


Someone who is going to be a suicide completed and choose a firearm ( according to the citations) is going to formulate a plan, likely leave a note etc. and in no way are they going to be deterred in the less than the minute it takes to retrieve their firearm from the gun safe and ammo from the ammo safe.


You cited opinion articles on what some individuals thought would help stop suicide.

No science nothing but opinion.

Which is not the same thing as what you're saying. As a medical professional who at one point in time wrote a lit review, I'm sure a professor told you "you need to be more specific. What does the experts say about the specific issue?". You're not citing the specific issue.

Then you cited evidence of suicide ATTEMPTERS. Which as my citation shows differ greatly from those that chose a firearm ( suicide completers). In other words, your evidence is conpletely invalid.

Then you cite evidence of “ means restriction” in people who were suicidal.
First of all, if they were an attempter ? They wouldn’t choose a firearm anyway. Second those tgat would choose a firearm? The means restriction wasn’t merely putting a firearm in one safe and ammo in another.
It was completely removing access to the firearm.
Which YOU ARENT GOING TO DO PROACTIVELY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARENT SUICIDAL .BECAUSE WHY THE HECK WOULD I PURCHASE A FIREARM ONLY TO PUT IT IN A SAFE WHERE I HAD NO ACCESS!!!??!!

So you're relying on a quantitative analysis by citing a quantitative study, by selecting on the dependent variable. It's the only way you can make your claims. That is a big no no. You as a medical professional should know that.

2. No it wasn’t even anecdotal.
But ho ahead let’s see it again.

You mean the articles I've cited that say it isn't anecdotal?

3. That’s right. And that’s because the key to reducing suicide is not making non suicidal people follow your ridiculous regulations It’s getting people access to mental health.

Which includes community agencies and community groups to do so by proactively providing the resources.

4. Nothing cruel about me. What’s cruel is anti gunners like you spouting about caring about suicide when all your regulations due is distract attention and resources away from getting people actual help.

Honestly it just comes across like you're saying we need mental health care without actually doing anything about it.

5. No. I understand what the studies I cite mean. They mean suicide completers differ from suicide attempters and that suicide completers are not impulsive actors.

You instead take data on suicide attempters and assume it applies to suicide completers .
As shown by the research this is completely erroneous.

Yes it's called a indirect relationship. As means restrictions increase, suicide rates decrease. Like do you realize when you do a regression analysis, when X is not present, then it implies Y will not happen is important information as well right?

 

[Scatty Kitty]

6. Sweet baby Jesus.!!! Look at you now run around with the goal posts in your arms.

So now you go from the majority of gun owners being “ safer” if THEY keep their firearms and ammo separated.

To now all of a suddenly “ but but children”
A completely different discussion.

But yeah, duh IF you have young children or older teen children that can’t be trusted you should restrict their access.
Duh. And the vast vast majority of gun owners know this as the number of gun accidents/ suicides compared to gun prevalence is extremely low. . And in these cases it’s certainly NOT safer to store ammunition and firearms separately. It’s safer to store them together where kids simply don’t have access . Like a gun safe.

And what about the majority of gun owners that dontt have a child at home?
Huh. How does having them store a firearm in one location and ammo in another location , both of which they of course have access to reduce self harm .?? How is it safer?

Stop with the silliness.

Honestly I would have cited more with the last study but DP doesn't let me cite over 5000 words in a single post. It just shows you didn't read what I posted.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Tell him.

Tell him how 700 or so out of the sample don't stand on one leg whistling Twinkle Twinkle while storing their guns (which we've decided must happen for safety), and so it is apparent that the average gun owner is unsafe. (We'll save defining "average gun owner" for later.)

Honestly at this point in time you don't really know what you're talking about. At this point in time you've been wrong so many times about things you just haven't read or paid attention to. How many times did I tell you that it's not safe for me to use a firearm due to health reasons and you kept telling me to use firearms? I want to say like 3 separate occasions. I mean it's clear you don't the read the studies or posts so either show me you're actually reading the posts or don't respond.

 

[RF667799]

Honestly at this point in time you don't really know what you're talking about. At this point in time you've been wrong so many times about things you just haven't read or paid attention to. How many times did I tell you that it's not safe for me to use a firearm due to health reasons and you kept telling me to use firearms? I want to say like 3 separate occasions.

Really? Can you point out those three separate occasions where I've told you to use firearms? I can't believe I would do that after you telling me you are handicapped to the extent you can't safely use firearms. It would be like if I told a paraplegic to go ride a motorcycle.

So let's see your evidence.

I mean it's clear you don't the read the studies or posts so either show me you're actually reading the posts or don't respond.

I think my last post perfectly illustrated the malfunctions in your argument. I'm not surprised that you don't understand, or pretend not to.

 

[rahl]

Correct. The core problem is deaths by despair. However knives aren't the cause of 40% of all suicides in the US.

Firearms are irrelevant to homicide and suicide rates.

 

[rahl]

Welcome to statistics.

Very poor statistical analysis lol. 1,400 is not even remotely close to an acceptable sample size out of 100,000,000

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Really? Can you point out those three separate occasions where I've told you to use firearms? I can't believe I would do that after you telling me you are handicapped to the extent you can't safely use firearms. It would be like if I told a paraplegic to go ride a motorcycle.

So let's see your evidence.

Ah my mistake I thought you were JMB. My bad.

I think my last post perfectly illustrated the malfunctions in your argument. I'm not surprised that you don't understand, or pretend not to.

No not really. I don't think you've done any indication you read my OP at all.