Why is the average firearm owner, an unsafe gun owner?

[CLAX1911]

The American Rifleman had gun advertisements from its beginnings. What's that if not giving money to the NRA?

Oh there's this organization where people play on guns we shouldn't advertise guns there.

 

[ataraxia]

Should they have access to a rope? Prescription drugs? Over the counter drugs? Tall buildings? Railroad crossings?

All potentially dangerous equipment is regulated. Do you think that's just because liberals hate freedom?

 

[RF667799]

Here's a detailed history of how it has:

When the NRA Supported Gun Control

The organization changed its stance in the 1970s

time.com

When some of you refer to "gun control" in the context of pro-gun people's support, why are you not specific about that "gun control"? I mean...I've seen people arguing for abolishing the 2nd Amendment by saying "Oh yeah? The majority of even gun owners want gun control!"

I support criminal background checks as a condition of possessing guns and motor vehicles. You don't. I must be a more extreme advocate of gun control than are you.

 

[CLAX1911]

All potentially dangerous equipment is regulated.

Is it I can just walk into a store and buy an angle grinder or to chainsaw or a table saw. I don't have to get a license or training or any of that stuff it's just all up to me to know how to use it so when you say it's regulated I'm calling bullshit

Do you think that's just because liberals hate freedom?

I think you're lying or incompetent.

 

[RF667799]

All potentially dangerous equipment is regulated. Do you think that's just because liberals hate freedom?

Do you think you could stay grounded in the ongoing conversation without flying off into left field?

Under discussion was access to guns in the context of suicidal people. My point must have been concrete, with you jumping into a non sequitur like that.

 

[CLAX1911]

Do you think you could stay grounded in the ongoing conversation without flying off into left field?

No he can't because he's wrong and he knows he is.

Under discussion was access to guns in the context of suicidal people. My point must have been concrete, with you jumping into a non sequitur like that.

But you don't understand dishonesty is good when it's the serving his end.

 

[RF667799]

Is it I can just walk into a store and buy an angle grinder or to chainsaw or a table saw. I don't have to get a license or training or any of that stuff it's just all up to me to know how to use it so when you say it's regulated I'm calling bullshit

I think you're lying or incompetent.

It was just his silly attempt at deflection. I wish he would start a thread about how guns should be regulated like bulldozers...and then post a link to a children's website that features a picture of a backhoe. That clown show was well worth the cost of admission.

 

[RF667799]

Oh there's this organization where people play on guns we shouldn't advertise guns there.

I don't know why he thinks it is such a nuclear bomb of an argument to exclaim "The NRA used to support gun control!"

I guess it's just because the NRA is their bogeyman.

The Democrats used to support chattel slavery. They felt so strongly about that, they took up....arms.

 

[ataraxia]

Is it I can just walk into a store and buy an angle grinder or to chainsaw or a table saw. I don't have to get a license or training or any of that stuff it's just all up to me to know how to use it so when you say it's regulated I'm calling bullshit

I think you're lying or incompetent.

Not sure what you mean. There are numerous safety regulations in place for all those things. These tools are subject to manufacturing standards from organizations like OSHA, ANSI, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). For example, chainsaws must have features like blade guards, chain brakes, and throttle interlocks to reduce risk. Power tools also require UL certification for electrical safety. In workplaces, OSHA mandates training, protective equipment, and proper handling procedures. Even for home users, retailers provide warnings and safety manuals, and there are liability laws encouraging manufacturers to design safer tools. The point here is that while you’re not forced to take a class to buy a chainsaw, there are still systems in place to reduce accidental harm because those tools are inherently dangerous.

But regardless, guns are more dangerous tools than those other things you listed. They are not tools meant for construction or yard work — their primary design purpose is to kill or injure. A person misusing a chainsaw might hurt someone nearby, but it’s nearly impossible to commit a mass killing with a chainsaw or angle grinder (outside of cheesy horror movies). One angry or unstable person with a gun, however, can kill multiple people- in seconds. That’s why it’s more appropriate to compare guns to cars than to power tools. Cars can also be deadly when misused, and as a result we require licenses, registration, insurance, written and driving tests, and regular renewals. Guns, which are far more effective for intentional harm, should logically be regulated even more carefully — not less. But even cars have far more regulations on their manufacture, sale, and use than firearms today.

So the fact that tools are “up to you to use safely” isn't quite accurate, and doesn’t undermine the case for gun control. It just proves that the more dangerous and lethal something is, the more regulation it reasonably deserves.

 

[ataraxia]

I don't know why he thinks it is such a nuclear bomb of an argument to exclaim "The NRA used to support gun control!"

That was just in response to the claim that the NRA hasn't changed. But I am glad you agree now that that's not accurate.

 

[iguanaman]

Should they have access to a rope? Prescription drugs? Over the counter drugs? Tall buildings? Railroad crossings?

Any of those things that are less deadly than a gun would be better yes. Over half of all suicides are by gun and 90% those deaths were preventable. So sad. It is interesting that only 35% of Americans own guns yet over 50% of all suicides are by guns don't you think? So it is true that just having a gun available makes you more likely to die by suicide.

 

[ataraxia]

When some of you refer to "gun control" in the context of pro-gun people's support, why are you not specific about that "gun control"?

I specifically support measures which have been proven to work- not just by correlation, but causation:

1. Require individuals to get a license or permit before buying a gun (usually after a background check and sometimes safety training).​

Evidence: States with PTP laws (e.g. Connecticut) have significantly lower gun homicide and suicide rates.

• Connecticut: 40% drop in gun homicides after enacting PTP.
• Missouri: 25% increase after repealing its PTP law.

2. Require background checks for all gun sales, including private and gun show sales.​

• Evidence: Alone, UBCs are more effective when combined with PTP laws—but they still help prevent guns from going to high-risk individuals.

3. Allow temporary removal of firearms from individuals deemed a risk to themselves or others.​

• Evidence: Shown to prevent suicides and may help reduce mass shootings. In some states, hundreds of suicide attempts may have been prevented.

4. Hold gun owners accountable if a child accesses a firearm due to negligent storage.​

• Evidence: Associated with reduced accidental shootings and suicides among children and teens.

5. Restrict the sale or possession of military-style semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines.​

• Evidence: Modest impact on overall gun crime but linked to reduced casualties in mass shootings.

6. Require a delay between purchasing and receiving a firearm.​

• Evidence: Associated with reductions in gun suicides and impulsive shootings. A study estimated waiting periods reduce gun homicides by 17%.

7. Prohibit gun ownership by individuals convicted of domestic violence or under restraining orders.​

• Evidence: Reduces intimate partner homicide rates, especially when enforcement is strong.

 

[JMB1911A1]

The fact the the NRA is completely owned and supported by the gun makers and that it wasn't always that way. That has fundamentally changed the NRA and not in a good way.

Another lie. The NRA is on its way to 5 million members. Are there 5 million gun makers in this country?

I think you are getting confused with the NSSF which is an industry organization.

 

[RF667799]

That was just in response to the claim that the NRA hasn't changed. But I am glad you agree now that that's not accurate.

You should quote my entire post when you respond. It reassures me that you are responding with what you believe is a credible argument.

I don't know why he thinks it is such a nuclear bomb of an argument to exclaim "The NRA used to support gun control!"

I guess it's just because the NRA is their bogeyman.

The Democrats used to support chattel slavery. They felt so strongly about that, they took up....arms.

So both the Democrats and the NRA have made progress in extending previously denied rights and civil liberties to their fellow man.

 

[ataraxia]

You should quote my entire post when you respond. It reassures me that you are responding with what you believe is a credible argument.

I don't know why he thinks it is such a nuclear bomb of an argument to exclaim "The NRA used to support gun control!"

I guess it's just because the NRA is their bogeyman.

The Democrats used to support chattel slavery. They felt so strongly about that, they took up....arms.

So both the Democrats and the NRA have made progress in extending previously denied rights and civil liberties to their fellow man.

Yes- because the right to carry around military weapons of your choice at your local mall is exactly the same thing as civil rights.

 

[RF667799]

I specifically support measures which have been proven to work- not just by correlation, but causation:

1. Require individuals to get a license or permit before buying a gun (usually after a background check and sometimes safety training).​

Evidence: States with PTP laws (e.g. Connecticut) have significantly lower gun homicide and suicide rates.

• Connecticut: 40% drop in gun homicides after enacting PTP.
• Missouri: 25% increase after repealing its PTP law.

Anecdotal evidence given as attempt to support a global claim.

2. Require background checks for all gun sales, including private and gun show sales.​

• Evidence: Alone, UBCs are more effective when combined with PTP laws—but they still help prevent guns from going to high-risk individuals.

I support background checks. You OTOH, seemingly don't think they are very efficacious in preventing criminals from having items useful to their criminal endeavors.

3. Allow temporary removal of firearms from individuals deemed a risk to themselves or others.​

• Evidence: Shown to prevent suicides and may help reduce mass shootings. In some states, hundreds of suicide attempts may have been prevented.

So are they shown to prevent suicides, or is it they may have prevented suicides? You don't sound very sure.

4. Hold gun owners accountable if a child accesses a firearm due to negligent storage.​

• Evidence: Associated with reduced accidental shootings and suicides among children and teens.

Both criminal and civil negligence are already a thing, in every state in the union.

5. Restrict the sale or possession of military-style semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines.​

• Evidence: Modest impact on overall gun crime but linked to reduced casualties in mass shootings.

No link at all. It's just a camel trying to stick his drooling nose under the tent flap.

6. Require a delay between purchasing and receiving a firearm.​

• Evidence: Associated with reductions in gun suicides and impulsive shootings. A study estimated waiting periods reduce gun homicides by 17%.

Estimates and associations. How's that working for Illinois? Were 17% of Illinois murderers actually attempting to buy a gun immediately before murdering someone, and were they proven to give up when they found out they would have to wait three days?

7. Prohibit gun ownership by individuals convicted of domestic violence or under restraining orders.​

• Evidence: Reduces intimate partner homicide rates, especially when enforcement is strong.

Already a thing. Why should stalkers and spouse beaters be able to own and possess the means to access their victims more readily, though?

 

[RF667799]

Yes- because the right to carry around military weapons of your choice at your local mall is exactly the same thing as civil rights.

Your local mall is probably private property. You have no right to carry even a ball point pen there, if they say "No".

BTW, I said "civil liberties". Don't think your subtle change of what I said went unnoticed.

 

[CLAX1911]

Not sure what you mean. There are numerous safety regulations in place for all those things. These tools are subject to manufacturing standards from organizations like OSHA, ANSI, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). For example, chainsaws must have features like blade guards, chain brakes, and throttle interlocks to reduce risk. Power tools also require UL certification for electrical safety. In workplaces, OSHA mandates training, protective equipment, and proper handling procedures. Even for home users, retailers provide warnings and safety manuals, and there are liability laws encouraging manufacturers to design safer tools. The point here is that while you’re not forced to take a class to buy a chainsaw, there are still systems in place to reduce accidental harm because those tools are inherently dangerous.

But regardless, guns are more dangerous tools than those other things you listed. They are not tools meant for construction or yard work — their primary design purpose is to kill or injure. A person misusing a chainsaw might hurt someone nearby, but it’s nearly impossible to commit a mass killing with a chainsaw or angle grinder (outside of cheesy horror movies). One angry or unstable person with a gun, however, can kill multiple people- in seconds. That’s why it’s more appropriate to compare guns to cars than to power tools. Cars can also be deadly when misused, and as a result we require licenses, registration, insurance, written and driving tests, and regular renewals. Guns, which are far more effective for intentional harm, should logically be regulated even more carefully — not less. But even cars have far more regulations on their manufacture, sale, and use than firearms today.

So the fact that tools are “up to you to use safely” isn't quite accurate, and doesn’t undermine the case for gun control. It just proves that the more dangerous and lethal something is, the more regulation it reasonably deserves.

Actually power tools are an example of a dangerous item and they're not regulated in the slightest I can be a felon the suspended license and walk into home Depot in by a chainsaw without even showing my ID as long as I pay cash.

I can do the same thing with the car I could walk up to somebody selling their car pay them cash I don't need to prove that I have insurance or driver's license or that I'm a certain age I can just buy it it's mine.

The things you want to compare it to (when you got shown how ridiculous you are for doing it and move the goal posts) aren't regulated at all.

I have a friend that just bought 200 cars on one day he's a felon he has a suspended license he went to the courthouse and they approved every single title transfer so there's no regulations on owning cars.

And yes the safety regarding operating power tools is 100% on you and nobody else can be in charge of your safety.

 

[CLAX1911]

Yes- because the right to carry around military weapons of your choice at your local mall is exactly the same thing as civil rights.

Yes it is.

If someone tried to attack you and you have no way of defending yourself then you don't have any civil rights or rights at all.

The existence of Rights necessarily requires ownership and carry of weaponry. And yes that includes military weaponry.

If you're going to claim someone has civil rights they must have a need to use Force to ensure them if not then they don't have any and you should quit appealing to it just say you're against rights because that's what you are. At least to be honest.

 

[CLAX1911]

Anecdotal evidence given as attempt to support a global claim.



I support background checks. You OTOH, seemingly don't think they are very efficacious in preventing criminals from having items useful to their criminal endeavors.



So are they shown to prevent suicides, or is it they may have prevented suicides? You don't sound very sure.




Both criminal and civil negligence are already a thing, in every state in the union.



No link at all. It's just a camel trying to stick his drooling nose under the tent flap.



Estimates and associations. How's that working for Illinois? Were 17% of Illinois murderers actually attempting to buy a gun immediately before murdering someone, and were they proven to give up when they found out they would have to wait three days?



Already a thing. Why should stalkers and spouse beaters be able to own and possess the means to access their victims more readily, though?

You don't have to really go piece by piece on this all of this entirely can be summed up by he wants to repeal All Rights.

Even if you take the second amendment out of the Constitution you still must be able to keep and bear arms and order for you to have any rights at all.

And I'll explain so in 5 minutes situation where someone wants to search my car without a warrant or without my consent and I say no and he says well I'm just going to do it anyway do I have my Fourth amendment right? The answer is no if I have a firearm and I point it at somebody and say you need to get a warrant before you can search my property then I have my rights.

The claim that you don't deserve any rights is just a claim for your responsibility and I noticed he said that you don't really need to think about your own safety when you're using power tools because the manufacturer did that for you no they didn't. They do half measures and stick pamphlets in the box so that you can't sue them when you do something stupid and injure yourself and you can just say that wasn't proper use of the tool.

He doesn't understand this or does it want to accept this because it breaks his argument entirely.

 

[CLAX1911]

Numbers arent really your THANG eh Edwin? LOL.

That's a bit of a straw man and not a surprise at all from you.

It's not that the numbers are BS it's that the numbers being used as an excuse to take away people's rights is BS.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Total Gun Deaths: In 2022, there were 48,204 firearm deaths in the U.S., an average of one death every 11 minutes.

This isn't because of firearms it's because of suicides mostly. So making any laws regarding firearms won't change these numbers I bet an actuality they'll increase.

And then you have the smaller percentage of this number which are murders. Murder is already against the law so if someone does it they obviously don't care what the law says they won't be controlled by it.

So this is both a mental health issue and an enforcement issue.

You intentionally misunderstanding that too suspend All Rights is nefarious.

• 
  
  
• Firearm Suicide: 27,032 people died by firearm suicide in 2022.

There's no such thing as firearms suicide it's just suicide and someone bent on doing this is going to do it whether it's legal to have the firearm or not.

• 
  
  
• Firearm Homicide: 19,651 people died by firearm homicide in 2022, which was the second-highest number of gun homicide deaths ever recorded.

This is an enforcement issue not a firearm issue.

Maybe call out the morons on your side of the fence that are growing about defunding the police.

If you were citizens are able to have firearms more people will be murdered.

• 
  
  
• Non-fatal firearm injuries: There are approximately 115,000 non-fatal firearm injuries in the U.S. each year.
• 115,000 gun injuries, plus thousands of deaths. Thats a lot of people shot!
• Now: THANK ME.

For misinterpreting enforcement issues and suicide issues as an issue with a firearm? Why would I think it was thank you for advocating the loss of All Rights we really needed dictator I would so wish I lived and Auschwitz during the Holocaust that's what I have to thank you for no thanks.

 

[CLAX1911]

I specifically support measures which have been proven to work- not just by correlation, but causation:

1. Require individuals to get a license or permit before buying a gun (usually after a background check and sometimes safety training).​

Evidence: States with PTP laws (e.g. Connecticut) have significantly lower gun homicide and suicide rates.

• Connecticut: 40% drop in gun homicides after enacting PTP.
• Missouri: 25% increase after repealing its PTP law.

2. Require background checks for all gun sales, including private and gun show sales.​

• Evidence: Alone, UBCs are more effective when combined with PTP laws—but they still help prevent guns from going to high-risk individuals.

3. Allow temporary removal of firearms from individuals deemed a risk to themselves or others.​

• Evidence: Shown to prevent suicides and may help reduce mass shootings. In some states, hundreds of suicide attempts may have been prevented.

4. Hold gun owners accountable if a child accesses a firearm due to negligent storage.​

• Evidence: Associated with reduced accidental shootings and suicides among children and teens.

5. Restrict the sale or possession of military-style semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines.​

• Evidence: Modest impact on overall gun crime but linked to reduced casualties in mass shootings.

6. Require a delay between purchasing and receiving a firearm.​

• Evidence: Associated with reductions in gun suicides and impulsive shootings. A study estimated waiting periods reduce gun homicides by 17%.

7. Prohibit gun ownership by individuals convicted of domestic violence or under restraining orders.​

• Evidence: Reduces intimate partner homicide rates, especially when enforcement is strong.

100% of this entirely ignores criminals focuses on lawful owners which are more law abiding than police.

What all of this does is create the framework for a police state.

You might as well just be advocating that everybody be locked up in jail.

 

[rahl]

Any of those things that are less deadly than a gun would be better yes. Over half of all suicides are by gun and 90% those deaths were preventable. So sad. It is interesting that only 35% of Americans own guns yet over 50% of all suicides are by guns don't you think? So it is true that just having a gun available makes you more likely to die by suicide.

Guns have no relevance to suicide rates.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

It's not that the numbers are BS it's that the numbers being used as an excuse to take away people's rights is BS.

Oh. We call those numbers "statistics".

 

[RF667799]

Oh. We call those numbers "statistics".

Statistics aren't politically prescriptive.

Almost every argument the gun control zealots have, amounts to little more than a whine that people sometimes shoot other people with guns.