Why is government necessary?

[ataraxia]

I've explained precisely how it's different, and you folks continue to ignore it. Government/nations are not voluntary.

Sure they are. No one is keeping you here. Not sure why you feel like someone is forcing you to stay here. If you can move your kid to a different elementary school, you can move yourself to a different country. If you can move your kid to a different elementary school, you can move yourself to a different country. We’d all miss you on this forum, but I guess we would manage knowing you are happier elsewhere.


Re nudism:

If the guy is doing it on school property, and the school wishes to keep my business, they'll get rid of him. If not, I'd take my kid to a competing school that doesn't have the same problem.

This guy likes to visit all the schools in town. And he stays outside the school property. He just likes to lean on the fence at recess and watch the kiddies play.

 

[ataraxia]

You're wrong about that. If I own the land, I know it and my neighbor knows it, and I plant. If I don't, I know it and my neighbor knows it, and I don't.

Let’s say your neighbor is a thief. And he is much bigger than you. Now what?

Hey, could happen.

 

[Anarchon]

Let’s say your neighbor is a thief. And he is much bigger than you. Now what?

Hey, could happen.

It's true that no matter how big you are, there's usually someone bigger. I defend myself from thieves if I can. If there's a disparity of force in his favor, I'll try to remedy that with guile and force multipliers. In the rare case that I'm outmatched in every regard, I'm no worse off than I am now with a large government looming over my every move.

Also, that thief, no longer protected by the government, will earn himself a reputation in a now empowered society of individuals that know they are responsible for themselves. Eventually, it will not work out well for him, discouraging him and others from being thieves.

 

[Anarchon]

No no. I pull up your claims stake and replace it with mine. I also declare that your cow and your chickens are mine. You will have to leave. Who says I can't do that?

Me, when I defend myself from your thieving.

 

[Fledermaus]

It seems that most debates here begin with the axiom that government is necessary. Is it legitimate to do so? If so, why? Let's see every reason why (or why not) anyone believes that government is necessary, so we can all consider them. Thanks in advance for your participation.

Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint.
Alexander Hamilton

 

[Anarchon]

Sure they are. No one is keeping you here. Not sure why you feel like someone is forcing you to stay here. If you can move your kid to a different elementary school, you can move yourself to a different country. If you can move your kid to a different elementary school, you can move yourself to a different country. We’d all miss you on this forum, but I guess we would manage knowing you are happier elsewhere.

I've explained ad nauseum that 1) we're not free to leave, 2) I shouldn't have to leave, and 3) even if I wanted to leave, there is no viable place without government to leave to.

Re nudism:


This guy likes to visit all the schools in town. And he stays outside the school property. He just likes to lean on the fence at recess and watch the kiddies play.

The school could put up a better fence. Society might shun the individual. You could continue to move goalposts ad infinitum, but that's not productive. There are voluntary solutions, and they are better than being forced. Do you prefer being forced over voluntary interactions? Regardless if you are a masochist or not, do you believe you have some authority to impose it on me?

 

[Anarchon]

Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint.
Alexander Hamilton

Hamilton was a power-monger. That was snake-oil he was selling, and he actually knew it. He is a fine example of why you should not give power to one with such "passions of men."

 

[Fledermaus]

Hamilton was a power-monger. That was snake-oil he was selling, and he actually knew it. He is a fine example of why you should not give power to one with such "passions of men."

You asked... And I think his words have value.

Have you ever seen anarchy up close and personal? I have.

 

[Anarchon]

You asked... And I think his words have value.

Have you ever seen anarchy up close and personal? I have.

I think we've all experienced anarchy in fleeting moments. But, I'd bet that what you think you saw was not it. Feel free to describe it.

 

[ataraxia]

I've explained ad nauseum that 1) we're not free to leave, 2) I shouldn't have to leave, and 3) even if I wanted to leave, there is no viable place without government to leave to.

1) I don’t understand why we are not free to leave. Just repeating it doesn’t make it true.

2) why not? If you have to leave your kids elementary school, why not the natiin?

3) Don’t give us that. Theteare lots of completely lawless places with no government in the world. You can have your puck.

The school could put up a better fence. Society might shun the individual. You could continue to move goalposts ad infinitum, but that's not productive. There are voluntary solutions, and they are better than being forced. Do you prefer being forced over voluntary interactions? Regardless if you are a masochist or not, do you believe you have some authority to impose it on me?

Sure, if I can. I’m free to do what I want, right? Voluntary interactions require that 1) one side is not much bigger than the other, and therefore able to impose its will on the other with impunity, and 2) it doesn’t want to exploit that position of strength.

That comes to a small minority of situations.

If you have a young daughter just going off to college, would you like:

1) a campus with lots of police and security around, or
2) a free campus with no rules and everyone is just responsible for their own safety

Ditto for if you have an elderly grandma living alone.

Now you may say law enforcement has been known to abuse their power as well. But come on, is it really better to just leave your grandma in a neighborhood which is completely lawless and free? Even if you bought her a high powered assault rifle to protect herself in this new free society you would put her in, really, how many minutes do you think would go by before all the furniture and appliance in her apartment would be completely gone?

 

[Fledermaus]

I think we've all experienced anarchy in fleeting moments. But, I'd bet that what you think you saw was not it. Feel free to describe it.

Somalia. Late 1992 to early 1993.

Society had devolved to extended families/clans warring with each other over guns and food. No central authority. No law but for who has the biggest and most guns and technicals to carry them. Widespread famine. What little surplus food there was remained in the hands of warlords.

an·ar·chy
/ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
"he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
"conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
antonyms: government, order
absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.


Yep... Fits.

 

[Fledermaus]

Makes perfect sense to me.

"I did nothing wrong" --- Donald Trump

"I am not a crook" --- Richard Nixon

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman" ---- Bill Clinton

"John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" ---- Andrew Jackson

 

[Anarchon]

1) I don’t understand why we are not free to leave. Just repeating it doesn’t make it true.

Then you shouldn't ask me to repeat it. Scroll up.

2) why not? If you have to leave your kids elementary school, why not the natiin?

A private school is a legitimate entity, whose property and terms I will respect voluntarily.

3) Don’t give us that. Theteare lots of completely lawless places with no government in the world. You can have your puck.

Then you should have no problem naming one.

Sure, if I can. I’m free to do what I want, right? Voluntary interactions require that 1) one side is not much bigger than the other, and therefore able to impose its will on the other with impunity, and 2) it doesn’t want to exploit that position of strength.

That comes to a small minority of situations.

Voluntary interactions simply lack the initiation of force. Don't over-complicate it. Without government, it applies to everyone. "Everyone" is quite different from a minority.

If you have a young daughter just going off to college, would you like:

1) a campus with lots of police and security around, or
2) a free campus with no rules and everyone is just responsible for their own safety

Number 2.

Ditto for if you have an elderly grandma living alone.

Now you may say law enforcement has been known to abuse their power as well. But come on, is it really better to just leave your grandma in a neighborhood which is completely lawless and free? Even if you bought her a high powered assault rifle to protect herself in this new free society you would put her in, really, how many minutes do you think would go by before all the furniture and appliance in her apartment would be completely gone?

Grandma would probably engineer her life in a way where she could rely on people that loved her...that means behaving as a loving, respectful person. That is, a return to older more traditional family-centric values where you take care of your elderly. It's amazing to think of just how many ways society might change for the better without government. I think with the size and reach of today's government, it's impossible to predict exactly how different it would be.

 

[Anarchon]

Somalia. Late 1992 to early 1993.

Society had devolved to extended families/clans warring with each other over guns and food. No central authority. No law but for who has the biggest and most guns and technicals to carry them. Widespread famine. What little surplus food there was remained in the hands of warlords.

an·ar·chy
/ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
"he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
"conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
antonyms: government, order
absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.


Yep... Fits.

Somalia had several types of government during that period...it sounds like you might have been part of one of them. Just because a central government collapses doesn't mean there's no government. Besides the UN, they had sharia law, xeer, more localized civic law, and governing done by warlords. The same will happen in the US when the federal government collapses, more local (regional, state, county, municipal) and traditional governments, including organized crime, will continue vie for power...and it will all be bad. The bad you're seeing is due to the existence of governments, not the lack of it.

You're also guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. The definition of anarchy I'm using is the absence of government, not the definition you quoted. To pretend that they are interchangeable is intellectually dishonest.

 

[OscarLevant]

"I did nothing wrong" --- Donald Trump

"I am not a crook" --- Richard Nixon

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman" ---- Bill Clinton

"John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" ---- Andrew Jackson

"And the wealth will trickle down" -- Reagan


Sheesh...

You are missing the point of my sig. The similarity is the thing, not the guffaws of past presidents.

And, by the frickin' way.. .... now that you are bringing it up....

How many asinine quotes to you want me to list on Trump?

in other words...

Yours is not a very good rebuttal.

 

[Fledermaus]

"And the wealth will trickle down" -- Reagan


Sheesh...

You are missing the point of my sig. The similarity is the thing, not the guffaws of past presidents.

And, by the frickin' way.. .... now that you are bringing it up....

How many asinine quotes to you want me to list on Trump?

in other words...

Yours is not a very good rebuttal.

Mine was a fine rebuttal... You do realize Andrew Jackson's QUOTE is related to the trail of tears... Right?

The only tears related to Trump were on election day.

 

[Fledermaus]

Somalia had several types of government during that period...it sounds like you might have been part of one of them. Just because a central government collapses doesn't mean there's no government. Besides the UN, they had sharia law, xeer, more localized civic law, and governing done by warlords. The same will happen in the US when the federal government collapses, more local (regional, state, county, municipal) and traditional governments, including organized crime, will continue vie for power...and it will all be bad. The bad you're seeing is due to the existence of governments, not the lack of it.

You're also guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. The definition of anarchy I'm using is the absence of government, not the definition you quoted. To pretend that they are interchangeable is intellectually dishonest.

Oh, FFS.

Several types of government?

No.

No government.

A bunch of families and clans competing for scarce resources is no government.

We were operating independent of any Somali government because there was no government.

No central government. No regional government. No local government.

Sharia only went so far and only in the whole when expedient.

You have a romantic version of anarchy that is as separated from reality as were the utopian ideals of early communists.

But hey, you visited Somalia at that time. Tell me your impressions.

 

[OscarLevant]

Mine was a fine rebuttal... You do realize Andrew Jackson's QUOTE is related to the trail of tears... Right?

So? I think repubs really need to let go of Andrew Jackson.

I think it is amusing that in the arena of public debate, before Trump, Andrew Jackson never got much attention,

I wonder why?

Oh, yeah, that's why:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...02/whats-up-with-donald-trump-andrew-jackson/

The only tears related to Trump were on election day.

Yes, the majority of the nation cried when he was elected. That is certain.

 

[Fledermaus]

So? I think repubs really need to let go of Andrew Jackson.

I think it is amusing that in the arena of public debate, before Trump, Andrew Jackson never got much attention,

I wonder why?

Oh, yeah, that's why:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...02/whats-up-with-donald-trump-andrew-jackson/

Yes, the majority of the nation cried when he was elected. That is certain.

Andrew Jackson needs to be revisited. I am for dropping him from the $20 and selecting someone else.

Teddy would be my choice.

And I was discussing Jackson's faults decades ago... So the Trump card doesn't play.

And the major of the nation did not cry. Only the snowflakes.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Me, when I defend myself from your thieving.

And there you have it. With anarchy there is no law, no law enforcement, no court system, and the strongest, meanest, most vicious, most devoid of conscience will generally prevail. If the two of you cannot agree, then you settle it most often with one being a weak and submissive victim or with violence. The strong are free to prey upon the weak and nobody is secure in their persons or property.

And that is why government is necessary for those who believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Maccabee]

As explained before, you are now living on Anarchonland. By you remaining here, you by default agree to abide by the rules and regulations I place on you. See how that works (and how silly it is)?

I have the option of leaving if I don't like your rules. You founded Anarchonland, so you have the right to create your own rules.

 

[Maccabee]

Frankly, due to overpopulation, besides what the government thinks it "owns", it's all already claimed...on this planet, at least.

In an ideal world, that had unclaimed useful land, the first person that made use of it would have claimed it without protestation.

By whose standards? Who makes sure your rule of "first come first serve" is enforced?

 

[Anarchon]

By whose standards? Who makes sure your rule of "first come first serve" is enforced?

It's not a rule, nor is it enforcement. The person making use of the land might decide to defend it should someone try to take it.

 

[Anarchon]

I have the option of leaving if I don't like your rules. You founded Anarchonland, so you have the right to create your own rules.

No, you don't have the option of leaving. You have to get my permission to leave Anarchonland. You also have to give me a lot of money to make up for my lost slave.

 

[OscarLevant]

Andrew Jackson needs to be revisited. I am for dropping him from the $20 and selecting someone else.

Teddy would be my choice.

And I was discussing Jackson's faults decades ago... So the Trump card doesn't play.

And the major of the nation did not cry. Only the snowflakes.

No, Trump did not garner the will of the people, not by any reasonable definition which would be that the will of the people should, at the minimum, having something to do with the majority, though I would agree that a marginal win does not equal it, but a win of 3 million votes by Hilary would clearly deny Trump the right to claim he has it.

Oh, and "majority cried" is merely a metaphor for that Trump did not win the majority. So, to refute it literally (which you have done) is rather silly.