Why is a single cell a person or human being?[W:1080]

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Your personal attacks will get you nowhere.

Your position is absurd.
I shed light on the absurdity of your position.
You consider that a personal attack.

LIKE (button broken)

...and you're in the same position.

LET'S STOP WITH: Morally reprehensible. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

...or let's not. Your position, as YOU have clarified it, is heinous. Let's tell it like it is. If you are proud of your position, that a man should remain powerless to prevent his children from being legally snuffed on a whim by the mother, then you should be thanking me for echoing it for you.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Whoa! How is that? A woman puts a human being inside her uterus without that human's consent, and you argue that she needs some sort of "self defense"? Please explain.

...except in all those times when it isn't life-threatening and does no permanent physical damage.

So where do you get the idea that consent to sex is the same thing as consent to an agreement, which determines the fate of an unwanted pregnancy?

An unborn is truly expendable. It doesn't matter that its "human". Being human isn't the supreme factor in making the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

A conception isn't holy or a sacrosanct event. Or is it to you personally?

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

One final thing. I didn't assert anything. I gave you THE CONSTITUTIONAL FACTS as it related to why women have the right to medical tests, diagnosis, treatments, AND LEGAL MEDICAL PROCEDURES.

When you could not justify your extremely appaling position, you diverged into the state of current legalities which was not the topic.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Your position is absurd.
I shed light on the absurdity of your position.
You consider that a personal attack.


...and you're in the same position.


...or let's not. Your position, as YOU have clarified it, is heinous. Let's tell it like it is. If you are proud of your position, that a man should remain powerless to prevent his children from being legally snuffed on a whim by the mother, then you should be thanking me for echoing it for you.

Yes, I totally support a women having total control over the fate of a conception. 100%. And I have no reason to be ashamed of my beliefs.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

So where do you get the idea that consent to sex is the same thing as consent to an agreement, which determines the fate of an unwanted pregnancy?

The act of having sex comes with a risk of accidental pregnancy. A woman who has sex is consenting to those risks. If the accidental pregnancy occurs, the woman accepted that risk. If it's a case of a woman who gambled and lost, she can't blame the human she created.

An unborn is truly expendable. It doesn't matter that its "human".

That is sickening statement.

A conception isn't holy or a sacrosanct event.

It's a biological event. A human is created. A human life has begun. That's what egg fetilization represents.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Being human isn't the supreme factor in making the choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

We have already established that your position holds that the mother's convenience is the supreme factor...and that human life is truy expendable. Did I forget anything?

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

The act of having sex comes with a risk of accidental pregnancy. A woman who has sex is consenting to those risks. If the accidental pregnancy occurs, the woman accepted that risk. If it's a case of a woman who gambled and lost, she can't blame the human she created.


That is sickening statement.


It's a biological event. A human is created. A human life has begun. That's what egg fetilization represents.

Oh my god....SO WHAT that a human life has begun? Do you realize that there are 9 million children under the age of 5 who die "annually" over things that can be easily prevented?

Just being human isn't enough. Born humans kill born humans every second of the day. That includes government institutions.

 

[RamFel]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

We've been over the "human being" argument, and I notice you didn't reply to that topic, instead you skip to this one. That's because the "zygote is a human" argument doesn't make sense. But, let's assume you are right:

The answer is that even if it is a defenseless human being, it doesn't have the right to enter her uterus. Abortion is self-defense. Pregnancy is life-threatening and does permanent physical damage. No person has the right to do that to someone else without their informed consent.

Folks, this is what I mean when I say that the stories that liberals tell are some of the craziest things I have ever heard, and this one is near the top of this of things that liberals have to do in order to keep abortion legal. Why a judge doesn't over turn the Roe V Wade decision is a deep mystery to me. Here it is:

"The answer is that even if it is a defenseless human being, it doesn't have the right to enter her uterus. Abortion is self-defense. Pregnancy is life-threatening and does permanent physical damage. No person has the right to do that to someone else without their informed consent.
"
These first two should be embarrassing to tell us:

---> IT doesn't have the right to enter her uterus.
---> Abortion is self defense.

And these are not as ridiculous, but an eye roller anyway.

---> Pregnancy is life-threatening and does permanent physical damage
---> No person has the right to do that to someone else without their informed consent.

Thank you Tsunami

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

When you could not justify your extremely appaling position, you diverged into the state of current legalities which was not the topic.

Your position in no way shows an ounce of support for the born. But more specifically...WOMEN!

The unborn should never be valued supreme over the woman who hosts its presence. If you can't respect the born...then I fear you'll stop respecting the unborn once it's born.

By the way. That's a very typical pro-life stance. Save the poor little fetus, but once born...it's on its own. Way more pro-life advocates also support terminating so many social programs that the born MUST have because they can't provide for themselves.

The hardcore reality is that pro-life use the child as punishment because the woman had sex that didn't meet their approval.

I do love me some authoritarian perspectives. They are an enigma, for sure.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

We have already established that your position holds that the mother's convenience is the supreme factor...and that human life is truy expendable. Did I forget anything?

Not a thing. Is there any evidence that abortion has in ANYWAY, shape or form negatively impacted humanity? They causing the extinction of humanity? What's the deal?

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Age is something that begins at birth,

You are talking about one's age from birth, which is a popular way to assign that value because we know when the birth happens, down to the minute. We don't know exactly when the egg was fertilized.

The living human inside the uterus is nonetheless alive and if the time/date of the egg-fertilization could be established then total time of life would better represent one's age.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Not a thing. Is there any evidence that abortion has in ANYWAY, shape or form negatively impacted humanity? They causing the extinction of humanity? What's the deal?

You are asking me to prove a negative. We don't know what we don't know. Did the woman who would have otherwise brought about world peace unfortunately get aborted to humanity's detriment? Did the scientist who would have otherwise ended world hunger unfortunately get aborted to humanity's detriment? There can be no evidence of the accomplishments of those who were aborted.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

You are asking me to prove a negative. We don't know what we don't know. Did the woman who would have otherwise brought about world peace unfortunately get aborted to humanity's detriment? Did the scientist who would have otherwise ended world hunger unfortunately get aborted to humanity's detriment? There can be no evidence of the accomplishments of those who were aborted.

I didn't expect any empathy, sympathy from you on the 9 millions dying. Your response is so common. You are a true blue pro-life advocate.

And there's about 300,000 women who die annually from child birth. Another 10 MILLION to sustain permanent injury from gestation and giving birth EACH AND EVERY YEAR! Guess these women are all chopped liver, huh? Just no biggie to ya? Right?

Uh...I get my numbers from the World Health Organization just in case your wondering.

Accomplishment by a 3 year old who dies from cancer would have been????? Pleaseeee. Come on. Seriously. Hypotheticals are a dime a dozen.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Your position in no way shows an ounce of support for the born.

This is a dishonest representation on your part.

My position is that the lives of both the mother and the child should be given equal weight. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one human life MORE than your position (which affords the living human inside the uterus no concern whatsoever).

My position is that the father's decision should be given equal weight to the mother's decision. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one person in the decision-making process MORE than your position affords (which affords the father no concern whatsoever) which would extend greater protection to the living human inside the uterus.

My position is that the mother and the father each have equal decision-making authority over the life of living human child inside the uterus. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one person in the decision-making process MORE than your position (which affords the father no power to protect his living human child inside the uterus) and thus affords the some potential protection to the living human inside the uterus.

But more specifically...WOMEN!

Right, right...I got it already. The gravest sin is to require a woman to live with inconveniences of her own making, especially when those inconveniences can be alleviated by the simple killing of a living human being.

The unborn should never be valued supreme over the woman who hosts its presence.

That's a funny way of saying that a living human life should always be considered less important that a woman's convenience.

I do love me some authoritarian perspectives. They are an enigma, for sure.

Just so we're clear, you believe that NOT placing a woman's convenience over the ENTIRETY of a human life is an "authoritarian" stance. I get it.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

I didn't expect any empathy, sympathy from you on the 9 millions dying. Your response is so common. You are a true blue pro-life advocate.

What 9-million dying? Are you confusing different conversations?

Also, I don't think I fit the "Pro-Life" definition and I'm certainly not religious. I recognize absurd illogic when I see it, and I recognize sick people who don't value human life or a parent's right to protect his/her children.

And there's about 300,000 women who die annually from child birth.

Red herring. I stipulated we could exclude the <1% of instances in which the mother's life was at an unacceptable risk.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

This is a dishonest representation on your part.

My position is that the lives of both the mother and the child should be given equal weight. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one human life MORE than your position (which affords the living human inside the uterus no concern whatsoever).

My position is that the father's decision should be given equal weight to the mother's decision. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one person in the decision-making process MORE than your position affords (which affords the father no concern whatsoever) which would extend greater protection to the living human inside the uterus.

My position is that the mother and the father each have equal decision-making authority over the life of living human child inside the uterus. That certainly represents the full weight of support for one person in the decision-making process MORE than your position (which affords the father no power to protect his living human child inside the uterus) and thus affords the some potential protection to the living human inside the uterus.


Right, right...I got it already. The gravest sin is to require a woman to live with inconveniences of her own making, especially when those inconveniences can be alleviated by the simple killing of a living human being.


That's a funny way of saying that a living human life should always be considered less important that a woman's convenience.


Just so we're clear, you believe that NOT placing a woman's convenience over the ENTIRETY of a human life is an "authoritarian" stance. I get it.

Convenience is not less important than any other reason. Sorry.

The criteria of "Human life", in terms of it being relevant to the proliferation of humanity...just isn't a viable reason to undermine the rights of the born, but more in particular women.

 

[IB daMann]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Oh my god....SO WHAT that a human life has begun?

It's everything. That's why "murder" has been considered a crime in every human society. This forum understands that you, personally, don't value human life if it's young enough.

Do you realize that there are 9 million children under the age of 5 who die "annually" over things that can be easily prevented?

Aaah, this is your "9 million children" reference. What's your point? How does this relate to abortion? Is it your position that whenever a child dies of something that is preventable that it serves as an example of a child that should have been aborted? I don't see where you're going with this.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

What 9-million dying? Are you confusing different conversations?

Also, I don't think I fit the "Pro-Life" definition and I'm certainly not religious. I recognize absurd illogic when I see it, and I recognize sick people who don't value human life or a parent's right to protect his/her children.


Red herring. I stipulated we could exclude the <1% of instances in which the mother's life was at an unacceptable risk.

No...it's relevant to my claim that you place a higher value on the unborn than you do the born.

Wow, when you have a fetus in YOUR uterus...shout back. Okay?

Soooooooo... obviously we have opinions about abortion and women's right to maintain their sexual health and reproductive roles...that are light years apart.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

It's everything. That's why "murder" has been considered a crime in every human society. This forum understands that you, personally, don't value human life if it's young enough.

aaah, this is your "9 million children" reference. What's your point? How does this relate to abortion? Is it your position that whenever a child dies of something that is preventable that it serves as an example of a child that should have been aborted? I don't see where you're going with this.

Look, if we can't protect the born...why make all of the effort to protect the unborn?

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

The act of having sex comes with a risk of accidental pregnancy. A woman who has sex is consenting to those risks. If the accidental pregnancy occurs, the woman accepted that risk. If it's a case of a woman who gambled and lost, she can't blame the human she created.

A woman accepts the risk of accidental pregnancy when choosing to have sex, but she does not accept any dictates as to what to do about it. A woman choosing abortion isn't "blaming" the zef, and btw, the "human" is in the process of being created, it is not a finished product.

That is sickening statement.

Your emotional reaction is of no consequence.

It's a biological event. A human is created. A human life has begun. That's what egg fetilization represents.

"A human" is not created instantaneously. Neither is conception the "beginning" of A human life, eggs and sperm are alive and human. Egg fertilization represents a change in human life, not a beginning.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

I didn't ask about "hope." I asked about the definition of "Pro-Choice." Does the father have a say in whether a woman remains pregnant in the definition of "Pro-Choice"?

No, he does not and he shouldn't. He can voice his opinion but the final decision is the woman's alone - unless she allows him to decide for her.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

It's a biological event. A human is created. A human life has begun. That's what egg fetilization represents.

Egg fertilization represents biology. A human life/human being/person/ ensoulment begins at birth.
An abortion represents the ending of a pregnancy.
A spontaneous abortion ( miscarriage ) is the ending of a pregnancy.
About 90 percent of all spontaneous abortions happen during the first trimester.
Over 91 percent of all legal elective abortions happen during the first trimester.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

No, the father doesn't...in the final say.

You do realize that when a woman conceives that she is the only person who know that she has unless she CHOOSES to share that with the man she co-conceived with.

If a woman went to a doctor - and it was reaffirmed by test performed by the doctor that she was pregnant - and the doctor immediately asked, "Who is the man you've co-conceived with, his contact information, and I have to report this pregnancy to the State authorities."

How long would it be before women would stop going to a doctor to confirm their pregnancy or to seek counsel to help her decide on what she may or may not what to do? Or to ask for a referral to a clinic in which she'll terminate the pregnancy?

Or they would say "I don't know, I met him in a bar and it was a one night stand. He said his name is John Doe"......

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

Then the "Pro-Choice" position, as you have defined it, is a morally reprehensible position that I could never support. You believe that a woman should be able to kill a man's child on a whim. That's heinous.

Women do NOT abort 'on a whim'.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Why is a single cell a person or human being?

You are talking about one's age from birth, which is a popular way to assign that value because we know when the birth happens, down to the minute. We don't know exactly when the egg was fertilized.

The living human inside the uterus is nonetheless alive and if the time/date of the egg-fertilization could be established then total time of life would better represent one's age.

So what? It still does not add to the age of the person. Being alive is not the issue, it is being a human being/person with all the rights that come with that status of human being/person.

And a 5 week old embryo is not a person, nor is an 8 week old fetus. They do not have rights yet and that is how it should be, they may be living material but that does not give them special rights over that of the mother or rights that equal the rights of the mother. A ZEF (zygote, embryo, fetus) is not a person in the early stages of gestation.