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Why I think abortion should be legal.

Felicity

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thecelt said:
can we get back to the point at hand?
Oh geez...you people who just can't have a little fun drive me nuts....

..okay...here you go...

ABORTION SUCKS!

Literally....


It sucks a human being out out the womb--sucks the life out of him...


Of course killing human beings should not be legal--for ANY reaason.
 

doughgirl

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“YES, if you are talking about labotomising people, then i'd certainly like to die rather then living a spoon-fed life. you ever heard of a thing called euthinasia?”

That’s what Hilter did pre-holocaust did you know that?

Once assisted suicide is legalized, it becomes impossible to contain. Once assisted suicide is legalized, it becomes impossible to protect the vulnerable and mentally ill. Once assisted suicide is legalized it becomes essentially death on demand. Look at Oregon….
Those promoting assisted suicide promised Oregon voters that it would be used only for extreme pain and suffering. Yet there has been NO documented case of assisted suicide used for untreatable pain. Instead patients are being given lethal overdoes because of psychological and social concerns, especially fears that they may no longer be valued as people or may be a burden to their families.


If you take Oregon for example and look at the first five years….The Oregon Health Division issues a yearly summary of assisted suicide using information derived from prescribing doctors. NO supporting documentation or independent evaluation is provided to determine the assisted suicide was performed in accordance with the LAW. ALL INFORMATION IS FORBIDDEN TO INSPECTION.
The Health Division acknowledged that it had no way to “detect doctors who fail to report assisted deaths or commit other violations of the law.”

National studies show that among patients requesting assisted suicides, DEPRESSION is the only factor that significantly predicts the request for death. (Fifth Annual Report on Oregon’s Death with Dignity Act, Oregon Department of Human Services; Office of Disease Prevention and Epidemiology, March 6, 1003)

Sixty-seven percent of suicides are because of psychiatric depression. By Oregon’s fifth year only 13% of suicide victims received psychiatric counseling. Social isolation and concerns about loss of autonomy and control over bodily function were the causes of suicide. (Foley and Hendin, “The Oregon Report, Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” Hastings Center Report, May-June 1999)

As you can see Oregon’s safeguards are illusory. Assisted suicide has spread beyond the type of people it supposedly was reserved for.


May I remind you that in 1997 in the Supreme Court case, Washington v Glucksberg, physician-assisted suicide was rejected as a constitutional right because “the right to autonomy clashes with the right to life in our constitutional system…Death is the extinguishment of rights, not the triumph of one right over another.” The U.S. Supreme Court upheld both the New York and Washington statues prohibiting assisted suicide in all cases by a 9-0 vote. Physician-assisted suicide is NOT a right protected by our Constitution.

Are you for certain under lax guidelines like Oregon’s that family pressure wouldn’t promote suicide? You think some patients may opt suicide to avoid bankrupting their families?

Don’t you think that if assisted suicide is legalized for some it must be legalized for everyone? It says in Lee v Oregon, “The attempt to restrict such rights to the terminally ill is illusory.”

Do you want us to become like The Netherlands?

In April 2001 The Netherlands legalized physician assisted suicide and euthanasia. Legalized euthanasia operates under the pre-existing guidelines by which “unofficial” euthanasia and physician assisted suicide had operated for many years. In the Netherlands however……..

Euthanasia has expanded to infants, the depressed and the chronically ill. (Herbert Hendin MD, Chris Rutenfrans PHD and Zbigniew Zylicz MD, “Physicians-Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia in the Netherlands”, JAMA, June 4, 1997 vol.277, No 21, p. 1720)

Children as young as 12 with parental consent and those as young as 16 with parental notification can assess euthanasia. (Associated Press, Reuters, BBC, November 28,2000)


80% of euthanasia deaths are NOT requested by the patient. (Herbert Hendin MD, Chris Rutenfrans PHD and Zbigniew Zylicz MD, “Physicians-Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia in the Netherlands”, JAMA, June 4, 1997 vol.277, No 21, p. 1721)

This is downright scary.

Virtually every guideline set up by the Dutch has failed to protect patients or has been modified or violated. (Suzanne Daley, “The Dutch Seek to Legalize Long-Tolerated Euthanasia” New York Times, June 20,2000, p.A10)

I think that for even one patient to be given a lethal overdose instead of being offered hope and treatment for depression is sad.
 

doughgirl

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Tecoyah said, “Dont let her get to you....she treats everyone who does not agree with her this way.....just learn to avoid her like the rest of the board does. She is a one topic wonder in here.....with her own versions of data.”


Sorry to interupt your little tete to tete with Felicity but........


"Her versions of data?" I back up my claims. I give sources.

Bottom line, you are pro-death, pro-abortion on demand for any reason, I am not. There is no middle ground between these two views. You can put pro-lifers on ignore all you want tecoyah we WILL NOT GO AWAY. We all have our different styles.......Felicity has hers I have mine. In my opinion you impower me to say and do more. Thanks.

________________________________________
“She unfortunately, says nothing to agree with....even her scriptural basis is warped beyond any of the Bibles I have read. Maybe theres a new one out there.”

My scriptural basis is not warped. I believe the Bible literally and I do not believe in saying things to just be politically correct to make people feel all warm and fuzzy. I do not pick the Bible apart like some people do choosing to believe some things and discounting others. You obviously have a luke-warm response to the scriptures, I do not. I say what is on my heart and what I think is right and I could care less if you chose to like me or not. You think Jesus said things to make friends?
He obviously made many enemies……..so say whatever your heart desires, you do not phase me one bit. I am pro-life, you are not. I see abortion as the ultimate child abuse, you do not. Anything that anyone who is pro-life would present isn’t valid in your eyes, even if we back it up with documentation. And for your information there is only one Bible, just different translations.

"one topic wonder"? What are we dicussing here? Isn't this thread about abortion? I wasn' aware we were discussing a bunch of other topics? I came to this thread to discuss the topic of ABORTION......which I do not find funny whatsoever. You can laugh about a lot of things but abortion isn't one of them. I find it sad that people do....find it laughable.

You however are in my prayers as I pray for those who do not value the unborn. The Holy Spirit can change lives and change views, maybe He can change yours about abortion, He changed mine.



"... You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses ... to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

Lets all be witnesses for the unborn child, Gods creation.
 

vergiss

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That's cute, considering you and Felicity both ignored my posts containing Bible excerpts that support the pro-choice view.
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
That's cute, considering you and Felicity both ignored my posts containing Bible excerpts that support the pro-choice view.
Do you really want to tangle on scriptural evidence AGAINST abortion, vergiss? Really...? I can see doughgirl knows her Good Book, and I know my Good Book too. You wanna go a round? give me your supposed citations and we'll take a look at them IN CONTEXT.;)
 

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Axismaster said:
Hey Steen, I though abortion had everything to do with children? After all, it is the systematic murder of children, and in general black children.

Axismaster,
I am bothered by this post. I see we both live in Michigan. Can I ask you what you meant by: :"the systematic murder of children, and in general black children."? In 2004, 55.7% of abortions in the State of Michigan were on white women. With 37.5% to black women. What exactly is meant by this statement?

http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/abortion/Abortrace.asp
 

Felicity

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StacStang89 said:
Axismaster,
I am bothered by this post. I see we both live in Michigan. Can I ask you what you meant by: :"the systematic murder of children, and in general black children."? In 2004, 55.7% of abortions in the State of Michigan were on white women. With 37.5% to black women. What exactly is meant by this statement?

http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/pha/osr/abortion/Abortrace.asp


I live in Michigan too...and I find your post a bit bothersome considering you think its okay that a population that makes up 14.2% of Michigan's residents receives 37.5% of the abortions in the state. You think that is "representative?" Or is the ratio a bit skewed?
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Whites are 80.2% and receive only 55.7% of the abortions performed in Michigan... Hmmmmmm.....makes one wonder what sort of "forces" influence these numbers....


http://www.blackgenocide.org/

Between 1882 and 1968, 3,446 Blacks were lynched in the U.S. That number is surpassed in less than 3 days by abortion.
 

tecoyah

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doughgirl said:
Sorry to interupt your little tete to tete with Felicity but........

I suppose it is inevitable....that I need to "discuss" things with you, so be it.


"Her versions of data?" I back up my claims. I give sources.

You do not Back up claims....you rely on faulty information, based on sources aged and deficient. The basis of your understanding is unfortunately....corrupted by a lack of intellect.

Bottom line, you are pro-death, pro-abortion on demand for any reason

No...I am not, and had you bothered to actually avail yourself of the written word, lets say...perhaps...READ what I post before placing your trembling fingers on the keyboard, you would know that.

, I am not. There is no middle ground between these two views.

There is...in fact....a very large middle ground. That you are blinded to it, does not make it any less a reality. In your close minded inability to see anyone elses point of view, you simply make yourself more the fool than is already attributed to you. Thus I have tried to avoid you in the past.

You can put pro-lifers on ignore all you want tecoyah we WILL NOT GO AWAY. We all have our different styles.......Felicity has hers I have mine. In my opinion you impower me to say and do more. Thanks.

Obviously....you are not on Ignore....nor do I have anyone on Ignore because of belief. I save that for those who have proven to be a complete waste of time.....though you are very close.


________________________________________


My scriptural basis is not warped. I believe the Bible literally and I do not believe in saying things to just be politically correct to make people feel all warm and fuzzy.

In other words....you do not think....but instead follow, this was already quite apparant.
I do not pick the Bible apart like some people do choosing to believe some things and discounting others.

I DO pick apart the Bibles....as this is the only way I know to learn from them, rather than dwell in the stagnation of human words.


You obviously have a luke-warm response to the scriptures, I do not. I say what is on my heart and what I think is right and I could care less if you chose to like me or not.

I would definately recommend you continue to "Not Care" if someone likes you....likely a very good defense mechanism. Truthfully I very much enjoyed the Christian scriptures....though not , it would seem...in the way you do.

You think Jesus said things to make friends?
He obviously made many enemies……..so say whatever your heart desires, you do not phase me one bit. I am pro-life, you are not. I see abortion as the ultimate child abuse, you do not. Anything that anyone who is pro-life would present isn’t valid in your eyes, even if we back it up with documentation.

As you seem to have missed it....or could not understand, I will repeat my stance for your benefit:
I do not support abortion....and find it rather unpleasant.


And for your information there is only one Bible, just different translations.

Obviously.....you do not actually understand the scriptures at all....if you believe this. One has but to look at the many scriptures "Missing" from your book....to see the error of your statement.

"one topic wonder"? What are we dicussing here? Isn't this thread about abortion? I wasn' aware we were discussing a bunch of other topics? I came to this thread to discuss the topic of ABORTION......which I do not find funny whatsoever. You can laugh about a lot of things but abortion isn't one of them. I find it sad that people do....find it laughable.

Yes...a one topic wonder...one who has a singular agenda....one lacking the percieved skills to discuss topics outside the agenda....one of locked mindset....one lacking imagination....One Topic Wonder. And I do not remember laughing at the topic....you perhaps, as you are at times quite funny (though I doubt it is purposeful).


You however are in my prayers as I pray for those who do not value the unborn.

I have three children....which are incredibly valued, and have never considered the alternatives to birth as a personal choice, How many Kids are you blessed with?

The Holy Spirit can change lives and change views, maybe He can change yours about abortion, He changed mine.

He knows me quite well thanks.....we have known each other for perhaps....longer than you have lived on this earth, (so it seems). But If by chance.....losing my intellect was a requirement to "see" him....I would prefer the darkness.



"... You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses ... to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

Lets all be witnesses for the unborn child, Gods creation.


In short ....I would recommend you spend the time to read up a bit on your adversary before attempting to call him out....it might save you further ridicule, and keep you from tasting the grime of your own foot. I for one ....have researched YOU quite a bit.....and after about ten posts....it was all the same thing.
 
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tecoyah

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I feel the need to apologize to you doughgirl, for the negativity in the above reply. Though I did edit it down in an attempt to be "Nice"....after re-reading my wording I see it is far from kind. It was not uncalled for, per se....but is not the style I try for. Again, I am sorry if I offended.
 

StacStang89

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Felicity said:
I live in Michigan too...and I find your post a bit bothersome considering you think its okay that a population that makes up 14.2% of Michigan's residents receives 37.5% of the abortions in the state. You think that is "representative?" Or is the ratio a bit skewed?
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Whites are 80.2% and receive only 55.7% of the abortions performed in Michigan... Hmmmmmm.....makes one wonder what sort of "forces" influence these numbers....

Last time I checked, I was asking Axismaster. I can see why people on this forum say the things they do about you. I asked "someone else" a simple question, and you got nasty.
Before getting nasty, please learn to read. When did I state that it was "okay" for any of the numbers on abortion? In my post, when did I ever state my opinion on abortion? I was simply providing facts about the state that I live in, and asking another poster what was meant by "HIS" comment.
 

Felicity

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StacStang89 said:
Last time I checked, I was asking Axismaster. I can see why people on this forum say the things they do about you. I asked "someone else" a simple question, and you got nasty.
Before getting nasty, please learn to read. When did I state that it was "okay" for any of the numbers on abortion? In my post, when did I ever state my opinion on abortion? I was simply providing facts about the state that I live in, and asking another poster what was meant by "HIS" comment.
Geeee....Sen...sa....tive....aren't we...? :rolleyes:


'parently, you didn't have ALL the facts, did you...?
 

StacStang89

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Seems that you are the sensitive one. I normally don't make it a part of my daily agenda to tell others how to live their lives. I also don't normally join a forum to discuss things to have someone claiming to be "moral" make judgements or assumptions on where I stand.

Why is it that you are so against abortion?
 

Felicity

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StacStang89 said:
Seems that you are the sensitive one. I normally don't make it a part of my daily agenda to tell others how to live their lives. I also don't normally join a forum to discuss things to have someone claiming to be "moral" make judgements or assumptions on where I stand.
okay...so--do you support abortion or not?

Why is it that you are so against abortion?
I don't think it's okay to kill human beings.
 

StacStang89

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I am pro-choice.

Do you believe there are ever instances where an abortion should be performed?
 

Felicity

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StacStang89 said:
I am pro-choice.
So my assumption wasn't incorrect...

Do you believe there are ever instances where an abortion should be performed?

"should...?" No...
"Could..." yes. --If a woman's physical life is sufficiently at risk.



BTW...it seems Axismaster has vacated the premesis...so...that's why I butted in.
 

StacStang89

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So you agree that there are situations where abortion "could" be an option?
How about in a situation of rape?
How about in a situation of a girl under the age of 18?
Any other grey areas?

I am trying to get a view of what a "Felicity World" would be like.
It seems you have done some extensive research.
 

Felicity

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StacStang89 said:
So you agree that there are situations where abortion "could" be an option?
Very limited--a form of "self-defense."
How about in a situation of rape?
No.
How about in a situation of a girl under the age of 18?
No.
Any other grey areas?
None.

I am trying to get a view of what a "Felicity World" would be like.
It seems you have done some extensive research.
Ugggh...don't go there...I couldn't take the pressure....:lol:
 

doughgirl

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Tecoyah said, "I feel the need to apologize to you doughgirl, for the negativity in the above reply. Though I did edit it down in an attempt to be "Nice"....after re-reading my wording I see it is far from kind. It was not uncalled for, per se....but is not the style I try for. Again, I am sorry if I offended."

Hey don't worry about it. I accept yours and please accept mine. This is a very highly emotion debate. None other in the country is more highly emotional. None.

I have worked in this area for so many years, I've seen so many things first hand up close. It is hard for someone like myself to talk to people who just have no regard for human life who have not seen the things I have seen. To stomach that someone could allow a child at 22 weeks to be aborted when I have been in neo units where little incubators are full of babies this gestational age.......babies who more than likely will survive. They look like babies, most no bigger than telephone recievers.

I've talked to hundreds of woman like myself that abortion devestated...I've seen the destructive things abortion can do to woman years after the abortion took place. I've talked to woman who have no medical idea what abortion really is. Even PP admits it's killing a child.
To me Tecoyah the sad thing is that we are even having this debate, this discussion. This is not a religious debate for me although I hold to a Christian worldview. I work with many who are athiests and hold to no religious faith in anything. Even they can see that the unborn in the womb deserves to be protected.That is why I rarely ever talk religion to woman concerning abortion because you don't need too. I believe medical science present facts that speak for themselves.

I care for the unborn child, I care for the woman who contemplates abortion and the woman who has had the unfortenate experience of going through one. I certainly know how it feels. Last Sunday I attended a march and the sign I carried said, "I Regret My Abortion". I walked with my sister who also had had an abortion. (This is the mother of my neice who was born at 21 1/2 weeks.) As we were walking she said to me, "Boy do I feel like I have a scarlett letter written on my forhead." I said, "It's time for all woman to stand up and speak for the unborn and if this is what it takes then so be it."

Please accept my apology as well. I guess we all need to be more patient with one another.

God Bless
 
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