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Why I Say Public Indotrination Instead of Schools

The_Patriot

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I've gotten ridiculed for calling our public school system the public indoctrination center. The reason being is that the US uses the Prussian school system as a basis. The Prussians designed their schools to bring about social change that enforced obedience to the state. This was carried over into the US. The schools are not meant to educate but to bend the will of the children and made them obedient slaves of the state.

This video has a good overview of the subject.

 

tacomancer

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1. Music that inspires an emotional reaction, check
2. No citation to back up claims, check
3. Poor comparisons between two systems, check
4. Emotional imagery, check

I saw nothing of use in this video.

What would be nice is some data that proves your thesis, not just people's opinions and very loose comparisons between the systems of two countries.
 

The_Patriot

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1. Music that inspires an emotional reaction, check
2. No citation to back up claims, check
3. Poor comparisons between two systems, check
4. Emotional imagery, check

I saw nothing of use in this video.

What would be nice is some data that proves your thesis, not just people's opinions and very loose comparisons between the systems of two countries.
Try reading a book then. Here's The Underground History of American Schools. It backs up the video.
 

The_Patriot

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Maybe the problem is that you are using only one book, instead of the dozens it takes to come close to getting a broad view of the subject...
I have read more on the subject especially the words of the people who brought the Prussian education system to the US. The system is designed for social obedience, but hey let's not let actual facts get in the way.
 

The_Patriot

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I have read it. But again, we need proof.
That is proof. Where is your proof that the Prussian education system isn't in the US? Where is your proof that disputes what I've brought forth?
 
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tacomancer

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That is proof.
In the book, the guy basically lists his gripes with the public school system and his efforts to reform it, but he does not give much in the way of evidence about the nefarious design of the system, except some stories about farmers adapting to a more structured work environment and such as that (which are just stories, I do not recall him documenting any of his claims). Substituting loose allegory for proof is Glenn Beck type thinking. I am not saying the education system is perfect (because it sure is not), so far your claim lacks evidence.

Where is your proof that the Prussian education system isn't in the US?
The way this works is that you have to prove your case before you expect others to counter it. Right now I am waiting for that.

Where is your proof that disputes what I've brought forth?
That is not a complete sentence. It is missing a verb and object. My guess is that you are asking me to prove my case. Well so far my case is that your video is a load of crap and I have already stated my reasons why.
 
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UtahBill

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In the book, the guy basically lists his gripes with the public school system and his efforts to reform it, but he does not give much in the way of evidence about the nefarious design of the system, except some stories about farmers adapting to a more structured work environment and such as that (which are just stories, I do not recall him documenting any of his claims). Substituting loose allegory for proof is Glenn Beck type thinking. I am not saying the education system is perfect (because it sure is not), so far your claim lacks evidence.


The way this works is that you have to prove your case before you expect others to counter it. Right now I am waiting for that.



That is not a complete sentence. It is missing a verb and object. My guess is that you are asking me to prove my case. Well so far my case is that your video is a load of crap and I have already stated my reasons why.

That is his typical approach...he spits out his opinion, and expects others to prove him wrong..
He is stubborn, as well. If you don't find "proof" that he is wrong, he claims victory.
He advocates home schooling, so kids won't be brainwashed. Problem is, a lot of home schooled kids get brainwashed by their parents. Very few parents have the overall education and teaching skills to home school effectively.
 

tacomancer

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Why only the public school system? Most private schools aren't that much different in their approach.
The fact is, you have to have an orderly class if you ever hope to actually get some time to teach children the ABCs... This means they need to learn things like responding to bells and bathroom time. I don't know why this is a form of indoctrination (especially considering the fact that as the grade gets higher, those things are lessened to the point where nobody cares what you do in college).
 
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MaggieD

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The fact is, you have to have an orderly class if you ever hope to actually get some time to teach children the ABCs... This means they need to learn things like responding to bells and bathroom time. I don't know why this is a form of indoctrination (especially considering the fact that as the grade gets higher, those things are lessened to the point where nobody cares what you do in college).
If the OP is saying that part of schooling's job is to teach children about rules, civil interaction and social skills, then I would agree with him. That is part of what schooling does for children.

If the OP is saying that children are being brainwashed by the state to believe false doctrine, it should be fairly easy to post examples. Yes?
 

tacomancer

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If the OP is saying that part of schooling's job is to teach children about rules, civil interaction and social skills, then I would agree with him. That is part of what schooling does for children.

If the OP is saying that children are being brainwashed by the state to believe false doctrine, it should be fairly easy to post examples. Yes?
If he is referring to the book by Gatto, most of the complaint is about teaching children to have a discipline about things such as time management and other things necessary for an industrial environment. The fact is that those same skills are also useful for classroom management.
 

UtahBill

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Concerning brainwashing/indoctrination, if our children are exposed to other knowledge/opinion from the public, indoctrination is less likely.
I would be more concerned that the parents who adavocate home schooling are ignorant and are teaching their children to be ignorant.
 

Arcana XV

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If he is referring to the book by Gatto, most of the complaint is about teaching children to have a discipline about things such as time management and other things necessary for an industrial environment. The fact is that those same skills are also useful for classroom management.
Well, if that's his complaint, then what's the alternative? Because, frankly, most parents I know who homeschool have an even stricter discipline than any classroom I've ever been in, and I've been to both public and private schools.
 

tacomancer

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Well, if that's his complaint, then what's the alternative? Because, frankly, most parents I know who homeschool have an even stricter discipline than any classroom I've ever been in, and I've been to both public and private schools.
He will have to speak for himself, but I gather that is his complaint due to him citing the book by Gatto.
 

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That is proof. Where is your proof that the Prussian education system isn't in the US? Where is your proof that disputes what I've brought forth?
So what if the structure is here, it is the content that matters, and any open and honest person that has been in a US School will let you know that the only indoctrination... to teach and to imbue with learning, is content knowledge. Nobody is telling kids what to think, in fact, it is the EXACT OPPOSITE... teachers are telling kids to think for themselves and to take responsibility for their own learning. Just because a source started something in no way dictates that it is a complete replica of the original.

in·doc·tri·nate   /ɪnˈdɒktrəˌneɪt/ Show Spelled
[in-dok-truh-neyt] Show IPA

–verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing.
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.
 

Demon of Light

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Of course the public education system is about indoctrination. So is the private education system and home-schooling. People are pelted with so much propaganda and indoctrination that most don't even realize how few of their opinions are their own. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
 

UtahBill

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Of course the public education system is about indoctrination. So is the private education system and home-schooling. People are pelted with so much propaganda and indoctrination that most don't even realize how few of their opinions are their own. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Exactly, people borrow opinions without having the first clue of the knowledge required for an opinion to be close to valid.
If you are educated and experienced (old), opinions matter more than if you are young and clueless. Of course, there are SOME old people in this forum whose ecucation/experience is very limited, and they still want their "say".
 

tacomancer

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Of course the public education system is about indoctrination. So is the private education system and home-schooling. People are pelted with so much propaganda and indoctrination that most don't even realize how few of their opinions are their own. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
The process of socialization is about learning what is and is not acceptable. Without it, we would probably all act like those people who were raised by wolves.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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My problems with public education.
You can take me to task over any specific issue that you like.

Nationalist propaganda- I don't think kids should be saluting a flag everyday, until they come to their own conclusions as adults.

Historical revisionism- some things taught as history aren't the complete story and only further, what seems to me, an agenda of state worship.

Grade advancement- I prefer the advancement by subject level, makes more sense as it is adjustable to the student.

Funding- my gosh do we spend to much on schools, it's insane.

Student warehousing- shoving all students, regardless of ability, into the same classroom is counter productive.
The excuse that they help the slower students is insufficient, isn't that what teachers are paid to do?

Sports programs- this is school, not a junior recreation league.
Kids can do that stuff, out of school, with their parents money.

Parenting- it is an inherent block to parent involvement.
The school acts as a parent for a large part of the child's life.
 
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tacomancer

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My problems with public education.
You can take me to task over any specific issue that you like.

Nationalist propaganda- I don't think kids should be saluting a flag everyday, until they come to their own conclusions as adults.
:agree

Historical revisionism- some things taught as history aren't the complete story and only further, what seems to me, an agenda of state worship.
I somewhat agree

Grade advancement- I prefer the advancement by subject level, makes more sense as it is adjustable to the student.
You mean each level in each subject should be considered individually instead of as an aggregate known as grade level? I hadn't thought about that one.

Funding- my gosh do we spend to much on schools, it's insane.
I think our funds are misdirected. I don't know what the overall right level is. I think part of the problem is that some children simply are going to have to be left behind. Such as those who have an IQ below 80. There's not much we can do for them. I wonder if there is a study done to show how much it costs to education students based on their intelligence levels.

Student warehousing- shoving all students, regardless of ability, into the same classroom is counter productive.
The excuse that they help the slower students is insufficient, isn't that what teachers are paid to do?
I definitely think we need to bring back tracking.

Sports programs- this is school, not a junior recreation league.
Kids can do that stuff, out of school, with their parents money.
I think we need to do away with all sports programs that do not turn a profit.

Parenting- it is an inherent block to parent involvement.
The school acts as a parent for a large part of the child's life.
In a world where both parents work, I don't see any way to get around that.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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You mean each level in each subject should be considered individually instead of as an aggregate known as grade level? I hadn't thought about that one.
Pretty much, there's no reason a kid, who has a college level reading ability, should be stuck in 9th grade English.
It makes no sense.


I think our funds are misdirected. I don't know what the overall right level is. I think part of the problem is that some children simply are going to have to be left behind. Such as those who have an IQ below 80. There's not much we can do for them. I wonder if there is a study done to show how much it costs to education students based on their intelligence levels.
Once we realize that some people don't need a high school diploma, we'll be doing alright.
Frankly it's become worthless and teaching to the least common denominator will produce mediocre results.

I definitely think we need to bring back tracking.
I wonder if we ever had it?

I think we need to do away with all sports programs that do not turn a profit.
I don't see the benefit of building a stadium, so that a select few kids, get the benefit of it's existence.
Science labs, computers and other educational materials are better uses for the funds.

In a world where both parents work, I don't see any way to get around that.
Addressing this will get me all preachy, I'll avoid this for now. :mrgreen:
 
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UtahBill

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My wife and I both worked, altho she didn't start til the youngest was in first grade. We still found time to parent.
Teachers don't "parent" by choice. IMO, parents who expect that should pay extra....after signing a waiver that holds the teachers not responsible for how the kids turn out, behavior wise...
 
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