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Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

Big Eye said:
Like I said , you struggle with basic mathematics. Countries with very high vaccination rates can have very high infection rates…ergo , the vaccines are poor at stopping infections…the Delta goes through them like a dose of salts. It terms of hospitalisations the vaccines are waning …a constant diet of boosters would be required, ie , one every 6 months…that’s ok if you have complete faith in the long term health benefits of these vaccines…I have my doubts and since this virus is a very low risk to me ( especially as I’m already double jabbed) it would be wise to avoid the boosters unless something drastic happens that we have not yet foreseen .

The strange thing with this whole episode is the absolute fanaticism of the vaccine pushers for a disease that is not a threat to 99% of people and for a vaccine that is unable to stop infections…but given your inability to do basic maths perhaps it understandable…you think these vaccines are doing as well as we were told at the beginning of the year lol.
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Blah blah blah
More disinformation from the DP master of disinformation. I am actually not going to bother to debunk the bunk you have written here other than to say that I assume that everything you post here is untrue.
 
Tlrmln said:
Only two reasons have any sense of validity:

1. The speed at which the vaccines were tested and approved.
2. Lack of trust in politicians and public health officials, who have been caught on multiple occasions flaunting their own safety rules and on at least one occasion lying to us, or at least saying things that were later shown to be inaccurate, "for our own good."

Granted, neither of these things is enough, in my opinion, to rationally choose not to get vaccinated, but other people are more susceptible to misinformation that can push them over the edge.
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1. The speed argument is moot. This isn't their first go around. This isn't the first Covid. This isn't the first vaccine. Hard to believe but science, studies and development didn't wait until the world paid attention to do anything. They've been at it for hundreds of years.
2. Politicians and health officials do not develop or administer vaccines. Scientists and medical professionals do.
 
Ethel2 said:
Few = six months and do you have a link from a reputable source to back up your claim that the effectiveness at keeping people out of the hospital (which is what the vaccines are designed for) is in the 30s? Or did you make up that figure.....

Truth is, its much higher than the 30s at preventing severe disease, even at six months. Is at about 90% at six months and while protection is likely to fall after that its not going to be 30% at six months and a day. Besides: boosters restore immunity for an unknown period of time. Boosters of a very safe and effective vaccine are no big deal to normal people.

Data from Israel indicates that the Pfizer vaccine’s effectiveness against infection dropped to 39 percent in late June and early July, down from 95 percent in January through early April. But it remained more than 90 percent effective against severe disease during that time period.
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So far these vaccines have not been tested by a winter…their evaluation so far has coincided with late spring , summer and autumn …it will be interesting if your absolute faith in them is reflected in the results come spring next year.

By next year we’ll also have a better understanding for how safe they actually are.
 
Ethel2 said:
Blah blah blah
More disinformation from the DP master of disinformation. I am actually not going to bother to debunk the bunk you have written here other than to say that I assume that everything you post here is untrue.
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The only thing that’s true is that you can’t do numbers lol. The death rate in the UK is around 1 in 500 over 18 months…that may terrify you into jabbing kids but most people use logic to realise the risks to them is virtually non existent and the vaccines do not stop infections…as Germany is currently proving…or 100% jabbed Gibraltar.
 
Visbek said:
Clearly you don't understand that vaccines do not work if the only people who get inoculated are those at high risk.
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Vaccines work rather well to prevent serious illness, hospitalizations, and deaths with COVID in high risk older adults. Their efficacy for boosting the body's immune response in these people works just as well in high risk people whether or not kids get vaccinated.
Visbek said:
That's because clearly you don't understand that that vaccines do not work if the only people who get inoculated are those at high risk.
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That is simply wrong.
Visbek said:
Vaccine passports are no more intrusive than age laws for cigarettes, alcohol or marijuana. They're 100% legal.
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Not in Florida. COVID is not analogous to age limits on those vices.
Visbek said:
I'd add that actually we should require flu vaccinations in schools, and they already are often mandated in health care environments and long-term care facilities.
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Well healthcare environments are different as they are mostly populated with people at high risk of catching COVID or who already have it. Schools are populated largely with very low sisk people and even those who have COVID or a cold may not know it.
Visbek said:
Most of the diseases where we mandate vaccines are equally or less fatal than COVID. So, does that make you biased, or a hypocrite? Or both? I'm not quite sure. Help me out here.
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COVID was far deadly when there were no vaccines to protect older people and others at high risk and MDs had little understanding of the pathophysiology and how COVID was killing patients early on. Today COVID is far less dangerous to children than the flu so it would make more sense to mandate flu shots every year for kids and teachers than COVID shots, except for older and sicker teachers.
Visbek said:
I was referring to COVID. Try to pay attention.


And yet, you don't link to any of that data -- and you just blatantly ignored 4 studies which show that natural immunity fades faster than vaccine-induced immunity. How convenient.
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Those studies looked at antibody levels but predicting naturally acquired immunity based on those biomarkers is far from proof of anything.
Visbek said:
...and you have no proof that those with natural immunity are any different, yet you claim it anyway. :unsure:

No, they don't. The US has long held that governments can mandate vaccinations -- including for the flu. You have no excuse not to know that by now.
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Clearly naturally acquired immunity is more wholistic than mRNA induced immunity. Look at the Israeli study data.
Visbek said:
I'd add that your view that "governments can't mandate COVID vaccines, but can force you to get a blood test!" is absurdly biased and hypocritical.
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You are misinterpreting my point. Red herring and straw dogs are what debate loser do.
Visbek said:
Hello? The US just got over one surge, and is heading into another one. Europe is in the middle of another deadly wave. Wake the **** up.
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Apparently all those government mandates are not working so well in Europe either. What does that tell you?
 
Ethel2 said:
Hard to debate someone who believes nonsense like that. You are of course wrong.
Do you know that when doctors in this country spout BS like that they risk their license-not just from one medical board but from many of them. Why do you think that is? Is the entire medical profession in on a big lie-they are wrong and some internet hacks here are right? Please clarify.
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Most of the American medical industry is based upon patents and profits. Its a business. If a drug can not be patented it will not be explored or tested.

Democrats have soooooooooooooooo many human-gods. But selectively. If your claim is that all doctors agree then you simply are not telling the truth. There are many, many doctors and clinics that have to operate secretly and in the dark because their focus is on patients, not FDA and AMA for profit medical industry monopoly practices. The top medical researchers don't do FDA studies only seeking drugs they can patent - or how to convert a cheap drug that can be patented that would sell for a nickel to an artificial form they can charge $100 a pill for, with the same effect.

Most Democrats worship wealth and greed, the richest people of all such as Big Tech and Big Pharma are their gods. They love Pfizer, the most criminal company in USA history, over a billion in fines (reducing their profit somewhat) over lying about their drugs. But most Democrats love liars most of all. Biden himself explained that Democrats don't accept facts anyway.
 
Ethel2 said:
Sorry. As I mentioned earlier I don't waste my time any more reading links that belch misinformation. I have no interest in reading something that Alexander wrote, especially after I looked up his resume.
But in answer to your question, yes I am a pediatrician, retired but still licensed. I volunteer with my local health department to administer covid vaccines to adults and kids and to the chagrin of some of the leads at the mobile clinics I spend a fair amount of time discussing the vaccines with people who are about to receive them. I am always happy to tell people the TRUTH: that the incidence of myocarditis is exceedingly small and that nearly everyone fully recovers if they are unlucky enough to have that as a side effect. There were ZERO cases of myocarditis in the studies with younger kids, though I expect they will crop up. I do NOT belch misinformation to people; you shouldn't either.
You never answered my question: why do you think that the Federation of State Medical Boards is threatening disciplinary action against quacks who belch misinformation? Are they all in on the lie you believe and belch here?

The Federation of State Medical Boards warned July 29 that physicians and other healthcare professionals could be at risk of losing their medical licenses if they spread COVID-19 vaccine misinformation on social media, online and in the media.

FSMB, a nonprofit that represents all U.S. state medical boards, said any clinicians who create or spread vaccine misinformation or disinformation risk disciplinary action by state medical boards, including suspension or revocation of their medical license, according to a statement emailed to Becker's Hospital Review.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Physicians who post COVID-19 vaccine misinformation may lose license, medical panel says - Becker's Hospital Review | Healthcare News & Analysis

The Federation of State Medical Boards warned July 29 that physicians and other healthcare professionals could be at risk of losing their medical licenses if they spread COVID-19 vaccine misinformation on social media, online and in the media.
www.beckershospitalreview.com www.beckershospitalreview.com
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I get it you are too afraid to challenge the dictates from government and medical bureaucrats.
 
Big Eye said:
So far these vaccines have not been tested by a winter…their evaluation so far has coincided with late spring , summer and autumn …it will be interesting if your absolute faith in them is reflected in the results come spring next year.

By next year we’ll also have a better understanding for how safe they actually are.
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Show me where I wrote that I have "absolute faith" in them. I don't. I live in the "now" as much as possible and as of right now these vaccines are doing what they are supposed to do which is to keep people out of the hospital and alive-especially if you get a booster which restores the previous level of immunity and then some. How long will the boosters last? Who knows. My GUESS is that they will last longer than the original series AT KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL because of memory B and T cells.
Imagine if everyone did their part and got vaccinated. We would no longer have to worry about any of this because the pandemic would be under control in the US by now. Who is at fault for this not happening?
The covidiots.
 
Kreton said:
1. The speed argument is moot. This isn't their first go around. This isn't the first Covid. This isn't the first vaccine. Hard to believe but science, studies and development didn't wait until the world paid attention to do anything. They've been at it for hundreds of years.
2. Politicians and health officials do not develop or administer vaccines. Scientists and medical professionals do.
Click to expand...
You make it sound as though medical professionals and scientists can’t make mistakes lol…🤣😂

This disease is as political as it is medical, it almost certainly came out of a lab…manned by people that you’d absolutely , unquestionably trust lol.😂
 
joko104 said:
Most of the American medical industry is based upon patents and profits. Its a business. If a drug can not be patented it will not be explored or tested.

Democrats have soooooooooooooooo many human-gods. But selectively. If your claim is that all doctors agree then you simply are not telling the truth. There are many, many doctors and clinics that have to operate secretly and in the dark because their focus is on patients, not FDA and AMA for profit medical industry monopoly practices. The top medical researchers don't do FDA studies only seeking drugs they can patent - or how to convert a cheap drug that can be patented that would sell for a nickel to an artificial form they can charge $100 a pill for, with the same effect.

Most Democrats worship wealth and greed, the richest people of all such as Big Tech and Big Pharma are their gods. They love Pfizer, the most criminal company in USA history, over a billion in fines (reducing their profit somewhat) over lying about their drugs. But most Democrats love liars most of all. Biden himself explained that Democrats don't accept facts anyway.
Click to expand...
Answer the question:
Do you know that when doctors in this country spout BS like that they risk their license-not just from one medical board but from many of them. Why do you think that is? Is the entire medical profession in on a big lie-they are wrong and some internet hacks here are right? Please clarify.
 
joko104 said:
Most of the American medical industry is based upon patents and profits. Its a business. If a drug can not be patented it will not be explored or tested.

Democrats have soooooooooooooooo many human-gods. But selectively. If your claim is that all doctors agree then you simply are not telling the truth. There are many, many doctors and clinics that have to operate secretly and in the dark because their focus is on patients, not FDA and AMA for profit medical industry monopoly practices. The top medical researchers don't do FDA studies only seeking drugs they can patent - or how to convert a cheap drug that can be patented that would sell for a nickel to an artificial form they can charge $100 a pill for, with the same effect.

Most Democrats worship wealth and greed, the richest people of all such as Big Tech and Big Pharma are their gods. They love Pfizer, the most criminal company in USA history, over a billion in fines (reducing their profit somewhat) over lying about their drugs. But most Democrats love liars most of all. Biden himself explained that Democrats don't accept facts anyway.
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Many researchers and medical professionals do not wish to risk their careers by raising their heads above the parapet …surprisingly for liberals medics and professors are people too, they’ve got bills to pay..
 
RealityChecker said:
I get it you are too afraid to challenge the dictates from government and medical bureaucrats.
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You are also afraid to answer the question about why all the US medical boards are threatening disciplinary action against quack doctors who belch misinformation. Are they really ALL in on a coverup of some sort, a conspiracy to hide the effectiveness of HDQ and the horse dewormer-or covering up the alleged six thousand deaths from the mRNA vaccines?
 
Ethel2 said:
Show me where I wrote that I have "absolute faith" in them. I don't. I live in the "now" as much as possible and as of right now these vaccines are doing what they are supposed to do which is to keep people out of the hospital and alive-especially if you get a booster which restores the previous level of immunity and then some. How long will the boosters last? Who knows. My GUESS is that they will last longer than the original series AT KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL because of memory B and T cells.
Imagine if everyone did their part and got vaccinated. We would no longer have to worry about any of this because the pandemic would be under control in the US by now. Who is at fault for this not happening?
The covidiots.
Click to expand...
Well you were wrong about the AZ vaccine…but setting that aside none of us know the long term consequences of these vaccines…so the constant urge for low risk ( from the virus) people to pump them into their bodies seems insane. I took the first two jabs because we were told they stopped infection spread, I was never at much risk of hospitalisation…so I was lied to…there are almost certainly other untruths to be exposed over this winter.
 
Ethel2 said:
You are also afraid to answer the question about why all the US medical boards are threatening disciplinary action against quack doctors who belch misinformation. Are they really ALL in on a coverup of some sort, a conspiracy to hide the effectiveness of HDQ and the horse dewormer-or covering up the alleged six thousand deaths from the mRNA vaccines?
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I think there is a real risk that doctors are under pressure to go with the flow…they are being coerced to shut up if they have doubts…but some are brave and you disparage them . Science, especially new science , should always be questioned…science should never be seen as a done deal , it’s a process.
 
Ethel2 said:
Answer the question:
Do you know that when doctors in this country spout BS like that they risk their license-not just from one medical board but from many of them. Why do you think that is? Is the entire medical profession in on a big lie-they are wrong and some internet hacks here are right? Please clarify.
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The reason is profit, to protect the astronomical profits of the medical monopoly - the worst monopoly in the USA. Why medical practice in the USA is so astronomically expensive - without the results to show it compared to the rest of the world. In the past, the French medical community called American cancer treatment "torture for profit" and a study in the UK showed people who had NO medical care for cancer live longer than Americans who undergo American cancer treatment - torturous treatment at that.

I understand your rabid opposition to science. Your worship of medical-practice-for-profit as a singular monopoly. As soon as it is declared only one view is allowed and everyone else will be destroyed it is the end of science.

Once again, particularly due to a business we had until earlier this year, they are many, many doctors with an FU! attitude towards the FDA, insurance companies and medical boards. Most top medical researched totally ignore the FDA. This is because they are focused on medical care, not medical profits, and won't allow intimidation to stop them. There are drugs and treatments for covid-19 and other viral and bacterial diseases that are virtually 100% effective. You'll never get it. There's not enough money on those because they can't be patented. Nature can't be patented so nature can not be considered in treating natural diseases because there is no astronomical patent protection profits.

You are just one of the cattle to be milked for money to the medical monopoly.
 
joko104 said:
The reason is profit, to protect the astronomical profits of the medical monopoly - the worst monopoly in the USA. Why medical practice in the USA is so astronomically expensive - without the results to show it compared to the rest of the world. In the past, the French medical community called American cancer treatment "torture for profit" and a study in the UK showed people who had NO medical care for cancer live longer than Americans who undergo American cancer treatment - torturous treatment at that.

I understand your rabid opposition to science. Your worship of medical-practice-for-profit as a singular monopoly. As soon as it is declared only one view is allowed and everyone else will be destroyed it is the end of science.

Once again, particularly due to a business we had until earlier this year, they are many, many doctors with an FU! attitude towards the FDA, insurance companies and medical boards. Most top medical researched totally ignore the FDA. This is because they are focused on medical care, not medical profits, and won't allow intimidation to stop them. There are drugs and treatments for covid-19 and other viral and bacterial diseases that are virtually 100% effective. You'll never get it. There's not enough money on those because they can't be patented. Nature can't be patented so nature can not be considered in treating natural diseases because there is no astronomical patent protection profits.

You are just one of the cattle to be milked for money to the medical monopoly.
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In other words all the medical boards in the country are part of a big conspiracy to make money through telling lies.
I feel sorry for you
 
Big Eye said:
I think there is a real risk that doctors are under pressure to go with the flow…they are being coerced to shut up if they have doubts…but some are brave and you disparage them . Science, especially new science , should always be questioned…science should never be seen as a done deal , it’s a process.
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You really have no idea how the medical profession works at all. But I do. I work in it. We rely on objective data to make decisions. When the objective data overwhelmingly points to a conclusion-such as ivermectin being useless to combat Covid or that the mRNA vaccines are extremely effective at keeping people out of the hospital-we communicate that to our patients and it’s adopted as “best practice”.
As in any profession there are a few rotten eggs. And they are now being punished, fortunately.
 
Big Eye said:
Well you were wrong about the AZ vaccine…but setting that aside none of us know the long term consequences of these vaccines…so the constant urge for low risk ( from the virus) people to pump them into their bodies seems insane. I took the first two jabs because we were told they stopped infection spread, I was never at much risk of hospitalisation…so I was lied to…there are almost certainly other untruths to be exposed over this winter.
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I told you many times that the AZ vaccine is an inferior product. The mRNA vaccines are much more effective.
As to what you were told….I don’t much care.
 
Big Eye said:
You make it sound as though medical professionals and scientists can’t make mistakes lol…🤣😂

This disease is as political as it is medical, it almost certainly came out of a lab…manned by people that you’d absolutely , unquestionably trust lol.😂
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There is absolutely nothing about this disease that is political.
Only the response to it has become political.
 
Ethel2 said:
You really have no idea how the medical profession works at all. But I do. I work in it. We rely on objective data to make decisions. When the objective data overwhelmingly points to a conclusion-such as ivermectin being useless to combat Covid or that the mRNA vaccines are extremely effective at keeping people out of the hospital-we communicate that to our patients and it’s adopted as “best practice”.
As in any profession there are a few rotten eggs. And they are now being punished, fortunately.
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Well interacting with you has taught me a few things lol…
 
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