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Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

You simply will not accept the reality that these vaccines are no good in terms of stopping infection and that their powers to prevent hospitalisation are failing rapidly…the numbers are out there for all to see. If you think it’s the AZ vaccine failing then explain why Israel is seeing the same effect when they use Pfizer.

This will be the last lie I debunk from you for today. I have had enough for one day. Its a waste of my time. I will simply assume that what you post here is a lie. The vaccine are very effective in preventing symptomatic infections but what they are really designed to do is prevent serious illness and death, and if people get the proper boosters that are recommended they are a smashing success: they reduce the likelihood of serious illness by a factor of at least 10. As for Israel, look at this link and tell me that their approach is failing. Look at the daily infection graph. By Dec 1 the IHME prediction is that there will be roughly 425 infections a day IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY. Boosters work.

 
ALL of Sweden's deaths count. What I posted is fact. Deal with it.
Sweden's experiment was an abject failure.
Compared to like countries their death rate is awful.
Compared to the US Sweden has done great. The average age of death there is higher too. People that are already near of life clearly do not count as much as a younger person…99% of older people with any sense of morality would agree with that too. In terms of life years lost this virus is nowhere near as deadly as , say , aids….I know you want it to be , but it ain’t.
 
Compared to the US Sweden has done great. The average age of death there is higher too. People that are already near of life clearly do not count as much as a younger person…99% of older people with any sense of morality would agree with that too. In terms of life years lost this virus is nowhere near as deadly as , say , aids….I know you want it to be , but it ain’t.
We finally agree on something: the US totally screwed up the pandemic response, and thats because we had a jackass as an excuse for a president when the pandemic hit and because we have too many covidiots here. Perhaps Sweden isn't infested with covidiots; maybe the Swedes are mostly normal responsible people. Duh.
 
Actually mrdeltoid was largely correct and your points seem a bit naïve. Let me try to explain.

Wrong COVID vaccines are not perfectly safe but do cause serious heart and blood vessel wall inflammation, especially in young active men and teenage boys.

True but the CDC has been wrong a lot on COVID. Remember when they said as soon as we most people vaxxed COVID would go away? Or that flimsy cloth face masks will prevent people from catching COVID? Vaccines do still make sense for older and sicker folks but not for school age kids. This is a huge mistake IMO.

Actually the truth is COVID ain't going away any time soon and as we have seen with the rapid spread of the delta variant this summer the vaccinated people spread it just as easily as do those who are not vaccinated and never infected. Why? Those folks are far more likely to get sick and stay home than the vaxxed people.

Well those parents and grandparents are the ones who should have been vaxxed. Kids are more likely to die if they catch the flu than if they catch COVID and we do not force kids to get flu shhots every year. And kids who get COVID vaccines are likely even more likely to pass COVID on to grandma in a nursing home because they shed as much virus but are even less likely to feel sick. Kids sick with a cold or flu or COVID ought not be visiting grand parents in a nursing home.

That would be true except the science shows vaxxed people shed as much COVID aerosols as the unvaxxed but are much less likely to be sick (or die). So I am all for older and sicker people getting vaccinated against COVID and the flu, but forcing healthy kids to get vaccinated is bad public policy.

Well not smallpox because it is pretty actually gone but I have no problem with requiring those other vaccines for kids in public schools. Indeed, given all the people coming here illegally from countries where these disease are still all too common it makes even more sense now thanks to the Biden open border policies.
Lets break these down:

You're referring to less than 1% of vaccinated people. Like I said before, if you have a history of getting major reactions to vaccine, I am perfectly fine with sitting this one out. No reasonable person will argue that you have to put something in your system which you're allergic to and could kill you. I am allergic to gluten and dairy. Nobody should force me to put those products in my system. However, if you're not allergic to the ingredients of the vaccine, you're perfectly safe. As noted, the FDA and CDC have cleared it for everybody 5 and up.

CDC has been wrong. That's not a debatable point. For example, the CDC made a mistake (which I called this ahead of time) of recommending states remove mask mandates for fully vaccinated people. All what they did was create a culture where people can lie and infect the nation. However, the examples you present and the right-wing are completely wrong/misleading. Covid first hit our shores in January of 2020. It was an unknown virus. We didn't want to run into mask shortages. We didn't even know if masks were the correct way to go. We didn't know how it was transmitted. But by April of 2020, they learned a lot and provided reasonable recommendations for protection. It allowed the nation to open up its doors and get the economy going again. This of course, has nothing to do with the validity of the vaccines. As noted, the FDA authorized the vaccines, not the CDC. They are not the ones who made calculated recommendations for states.

That's a hard disagree with only sick/elderly people should get vaccinated. Everybody should get vaccinated. Mass vaccinations have pretty much vanished most of the world's worst viruses. You not only need to stop the virus from constantly jumping from host to host, but the mutation.

Based on what I am reading here, I just don't think you grasp the nature of the Covid19 crisis and vaccine history.

Statistically, fully vaccinated people do have the ability to get Covid19. Most of the time, they do not experience a breakthrough infection. Bill Maher got covid and he had no symptoms. However, the immune-compromised/elderly can still be hospitalized and die from covid, even if they're fully vaccinated. An unvaccinated person puts the elderly and immune-compromised lives in danger. That's one of the many reasons why EVERYBODY needs to get vaccinated.

And btw, nobody has ever said the Covid19 vaccines are bullet proof. Nobody. The Delta Variant has lowered the efficiency rating, but it is still very high.
 
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Lets break these down:

You're referring to less than 1% of vaccinated people. Like I said before, if you have a history of getting major reactions to vaccine, I am perfectly fine with sitting this one out. No reasonable person will argue that you have to put something in your system which you're allergic to and could kill you. I am allergic to gluten and dairy. Nobody should force me to put those products in my system. However, if you're not allergic to the ingredients of the vaccine, you're perfectly safe. As noted, the FDA and CDC have cleared it for everybody 5 and up.
The myocarditis and blood clots triggered by COVID vaccines are not allergic reactions. COVID vaccines also can lead to anaphylaxis and death but that allergic reaction is very different than these rare but serious adverse effects. Are you not aware of these?
CDC has been wrong. That's not a debatable point. For example, the CDC made a mistake (which I called this ahead of time) of recommending states remove mask mandates for fully vaccinated people. All what they did was create a culture where people can lie and infect the nation. However, the examples you present and the right-wing are completely wrong/misleading.
What examples specifically did I present that you believe I got completely wrong?
 
Because the number of people getting very sick and dying with COVID are NOW far more likely to be fully vaxxed than they were back in June. You posted that article I believe to claim that the vast majority of people being hospitalized and dying with COVID were not vaccinated. So what was more true then is becoming less and less true over time. Some time in 2022 the majority of deaths with COVID will be in people who have been vaccinated. My point is that COVID vaccines make sense for people who are at high risk of serious illness and death should they catch COVID. However, COVID vaccines make far less sense for healthy kids and college students as COVID poses little threat to them so mandating they get vaccinated is bad public policy.

Even worse, are public policies that require people who have naturally acquired active immunity against SARS-CoV2 to get vaccinated or else not be able to attend public schools, college, travel on airplanes, or work. As we have seen government imposed mandates based on questionable assumption (many of which have now been proven false) are prone to cause more harm than benefit to the US economy and have hurt far too many Americans already. Perhaps public policy should be based on objective reality rather then paranoid speculation and/or even worse political ideology.
Your reasoning makes no sense when this is still the case:

 
The myocarditis and blood clots triggered by COVID vaccines are not allergic reactions. COVID vaccines also can lead to anaphylaxis and death but that allergic reaction is very different than these rare but serious adverse effects. Are you not aware of these?

What examples specifically did I present that you believe I got completely wrong?
I am aware of the potential dangers of the vaccine. So yes. And as others have pointed out, they have not been proven linkage.

What did you present that was wrong? Everything. You characterized the CDC completely wrong. The CDC said that the vaccines significantly reduce the chances of getting covid and getting hospitalized/dying. They never said it was go away immediately or that is bullet proof. Part of a process. Cloth masks ineffective? What in the world?

Everybody needs to get vaccinated because we live in the same world. We breath the same air. The more the virus jumps from host to host, the worst it'll get. The more people we have in the vax pool, the better society is.
 
We finally agree on something: the US totally screwed up the pandemic response, and thats because we had a jackass as an excuse for a president when the pandemic hit and because we have too many covidiots here. Perhaps Sweden isn't infested with covidiots; maybe the Swedes are mostly normal responsible people. Duh.
Still blaming Trump huh? LOL
 
I am aware of the potential dangers of the vaccine. So yes. And as others have pointed out, they have not been proven linkage.

What did you present that was wrong? Everything. You characterized the CDC completely wrong. The CDC said that the vaccines significantly reduce the chances of getting covid and getting hospitalized/dying. They never said it was go away immediately or that is bullet proof. Part of a process. Cloth masks ineffective? What in the world?

Everybody needs to get vaccinated because we live in the same world. We breath the same air. The more the virus jumps from host to host, the worst it'll get. The more people we have in the vax pool, the better society is.
Does your pool include those with immunity from prior infection?
 
Partially yes
He WAS the president when it hit
The buck stops with the President
Since there are more deaths under Biden, with three vaccines and many many treatments, you must really blame him.
 
Does your pool include those with immunity from prior infection?
If you're immune, actually immune, then yes. If you cannot get covid or pass it on to others, then by all means, you don't have to get "baptized" with the covid needle.
 
Since there are more deaths under Biden, with three vaccines and many many treatments, you must really blame him.
It’s going to take a long time to clean up the mess left by the jackass. I no more blame Biden for the mess than I would blame the cleanup crews for the destruction after a hurricane.
The virus spread exponentially. That means that unless you get on top of it early you will lose control of it-which is exactly what happened.
The jackass never took it seriously. By his own admission he liked to “play it down”. He even suggested at one point that fewer tests should be done in order to make the numbers look better in preparation for his re-election campaign.
So yes, the jackass deserves the bulk of the blame.
 
Your reasoning makes no sense when this is still the case:

Well it makes sense to me. Why? Well unvaccinated and older and sicker people who do not have naturally acquired immunity clearly have a high risk of serious illness and death with COVID. Up until now they have been the great majority of those dying with COVID. But looking forward we already see rising deaths with COVID in fully vaxxed people! And we also see very low deaths and less spread of COVID among those who are not vaxxed, but who have had COVID and recovered. In the USA that is 150 to 200 million people, although a lot of them have now also been vaxxed too. So a combination of more naturally acquired immunity in young and healthy people (who opt out of being vaxxed after being informed of the likely risk and benefits) and more older and sicker fully vaxxed folks makes sense to me and is far less totalitarian than criminalizing and/or economically penalizing people for make a health decision you might not make for yourself or your kids.
 
You believe, but what evidence do you have to support that belief? Evidence shows that not getting vaccinated drastically increases complications from covid in pregnant women, and highly incenses the chances of still birth. That's what the evidence says. What you believe doesn't matter as much as what the data indicates . A number of women felt like you did, and now they are dead.
The problem is we don't have any evidence available concerning long term effects.. Especially in children. You're right about what I believe has no bearing at all on the issue. I googled adverse reactions and deaths from the vax, and there are pages of links to that info I was going to post. But even with that, they can't prove whether or not they all were from the vax, or some other problem. Same with the records of covid19 deaths, which a large portion may be from some other event, one of which was a motorcycle crash. Fact is, the two extremes, people who support forced vaccinations, and anti- vaxers, are the most strident voices on this issue. People like me, who support choice are drowned out. Think of it this way, look how many got vaccinations, myself included, voluntarily. JMHO
 
The problem is we don't have any evidence available concerning long term effects.. Especially in children. You're right about what I believe has no bearing at all on the issue. I googled adverse reactions and deaths from the vax, and there are pages of links to that info I was going to post. But even with that, they can't prove whether or not they all were from the vax, or some other problem. Same with the records of covid19 deaths, which a large portion may be from some other event, one of which was a motorcycle crash. Fact is, the two extremes, people who support forced vaccinations, and anti- vaxers, are the most strident voices on this issue. People like me, who support choice are drowned out. Think of it this way, look how many got vaccinations, myself included, voluntarily. JMHO
Or look at it this way:

*number of deaths attributed to the mRNA vaccines: one (maybe)
*number of serious side effects due to the mRNA vaccines: zero aside from above
*number of deaths due to Covid in the US: well over 700,000 with millions suffering long term complications and financial distress as a result of getting infected

There’s really no rational choice to be made. You did your part. Time for others to do theirs. NO ONE is going to be forced to get vaccinated-just strongly encouraged.
 
Or look at it this way:

*number of deaths attributed to the mRNA vaccines: one (maybe)
Agreed very few people are likely to die from mRNA vaccines.
*number of serious side effects due to the mRNA vaccines: zero aside from above
Well myocarditis is fairly serious and there have been over 1000 cases reported, mostly in young active men and teenage boys. They have a very low risk of death from COVID too so the case for them getting vaccinated is far weaker than for older and sicker people.
*number of deaths due to Covid in the US: well over 700,000 with millions suffering long term complications and financial distress as a result of getting infected
Well 80% of those deaths were in people in their 60s or older. Also those are deaths with COVID and maybe only 5-6% occurred in people who had no known serious comorbid illness. If we measured flu deaths the same way we tally deaths with COVID and provided the same pressure and economic incentives to identify any death with the flu as a death with flu we would have far more deaths with flu than the estimated deaths caused by the flu. Even so I have been vaccinated and encourage all older people and especially those with comorbid conditions that heighten their risk of serious illness and death should they catch COVID of the flu to get vaccinated against both.
There’s really no rational choice to be made. You did your part. Time for others to do theirs. NO ONE is going to be forced to get vaccinated-just strongly encouraged.
This is the crux of the debate. When you tell people they will lose their job, their pension, their career, and not be able to collect unemployment unless they get vaccinated that is force. If you tell people they cannot travel on a plane, go on a cruise, go to a theme park, or a restaurant unless they can prove they have been vaccinated that is forcing people to get vaccinated. We do not do that for the flu and we should treat COVID the same way. This is especially true for kids who if anything are more likely to die from catching the flu than from catching SARS-CoV2. Telling kids they cannot attend public school or college unless they get a COVID vaccine is simply wrong, especially now that medical treatments of COVID make it less likely they die with it than with the flu.

So when you say NO ONE is going to be forced to get vaccinated what specifically are you defining as force?
 
Agreed very few people are likely to die from mRNA vaccines.

Well myocarditis is fairly serious and there have been over 1000 cases reported, mostly in young active men and teenage boys. They have a very low risk of death from COVID too so the case for them getting vaccinated is far weaker than for older and sicker people.

Well 80% of those deaths were in people in their 60s or older. Also those are deaths with COVID and maybe only 5-6% occurred in people who had no known serious comorbid illness. If we measured flu deaths the same way we tally deaths with COVID and provided the same pressure and economic incentives to identify any death with the flu as a death with flu we would have far more deaths with flu than the estimated deaths caused by the flu. Even so I have been vaccinated and encourage all older people and especially those with comorbid conditions that heighten their risk of serious illness and death should they catch COVID of the flu to get vaccinated against both.

This is the crux of the debate. When you tell people they will lose their job, their pension, their career, and not be able to collect unemployment unless they get vaccinated that is force. If you tell people they cannot travel on a plane, go on a cruise, go to a theme park, or a restaurant unless they can prove they have been vaccinated that is forcing people to get vaccinated. We do not do that for the flu and we should treat COVID the same way. This is especially true for kids who if anything are more likely to die from catching the flu than from catching SARS-CoV2. Telling kids they cannot attend public school or college unless they get a COVID vaccine is simply wrong, especially now that medical treatments of COVID make it less likely they die with it than with the flu.

So when you say NO ONE is going to be forced to get vaccinated what specifically are you defining as force?
All choices have consequences. You may not choose to endanger others without their permission. That’s why you may not drive drunk and you may not smoke cigarettes near other people and expose them to carcinogens. It’s also why vaccine mandates exist. That’s the crux of the issue. Although vaccinated people can transmit the virus to others it’s the unvaccinated who present a much higher risk.
Myocarditis sounds dangerous but the fact is that it’s rare and almost everyone who gets it recovers without incident.
 
All choices have consequences. You may not choose to endanger others without their permission. That’s why you may not drive drunk and you may not smoke cigarettes near other people and expose them to carcinogens. It’s also why vaccine mandates exist. That’s the crux of the issue. Although vaccinated people can transmit the virus to others it’s the unvaccinated who present a much higher risk.
Myocarditis sounds dangerous but the fact is that it’s rare and almost everyone who gets it recovers without incident.
So tens of thousands of people die from the flu each year. Do people who don't get vaccinated pose a greater risk to others? Tell us why kids must be vaccinated against COVID but not against the flu when the flu is actually more deadly to kids?

I am all for encouraging people and especially those at higher risk to get vaccinated against COVID and the flu. Have done it myself. But you said NO ONE is being forced to get vaccinated against COVID but now I am thinking you were lying or perhaps your definition of force is very different than what most people perceive as being forced by government mandates to get vaccinated. Can you clarify about what you consider being forced to get vaccinated?
 
So tens of thousands of people die from the flu each year. Do people who don't get vaccinated pose a greater risk to others? Tell us why kids must be vaccinated against COVID but not against the flu when the flu is actually more deadly to kids?

I am all for encouraging people and especially those at higher risk to get vaccinated against COVID and the flu. Have done it myself. But you said NO ONE is being forced to get vaccinated against COVID but now I am thinking you were lying or perhaps your definition of force is very different than what most people perceive as being forced by government mandates to get vaccinated. Can you clarify about what you consider being forced to get vaccinated?

We have been through this. Force=not giving people a choice. That’s how the Houston court ruled when healthcare workers sued their hospital. Everyone has a choice. You can choose not to get vaccinated but you might have to find a new job, for example.
Kids are a significant vector for viral spread to susceptible adults. In addition kids can make other kids sick. Covid might not kill many (it kills some), but it can clearly make them very sick. Therefore their parents have a choice: get your kid vaccinated with a safe effective vaccine or plan to home schools them.
In the case of the OSHA mandate unless you are a healthcare worker you have a choice of getting vaccinated or submit to weekly tests.
It’s not really that complicated. You may not endanger others without the permission.
Should cigarette smoking be allowed in all restaurants?
This is nothing like the flu. It’s at least 10x more lethal. There’s no comparison.
 
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