Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[Paradoxical]

FL is doing just fine today and quite a bit better than NY, MA, or NJ in terms of total mortality from COVID despite having an even older population. I have lived in those 3 states {and CA} and all 4 of those largely Democrat run states all have far higher taxes and also far higher housing and other costs of living than FL. FL has far fewer homeless people and a lower unemployment rate than NY, NJ, MA, & CA. I know people in all 4 states thinking of moving to FL but no one in FL thinking of moving to any of those high tax and high cost of living states and higher unemployment states run by Democrats.

While you seem eager to pretend FL is doing terribly and that older people are not far more likely to die with COVID I live here and it is obvious to that FL is doing better than those Democrat run states. Indeed, many of the older people dying in FL moved here from those 4 states [many after they retired] and so end up dying here. So FL has seen fewer deaths with COVID in older people than NY and NJ because Governor DeSantis focused more on protecting the older folks and less on forcing younger people to wear masks and lock down businesses. Those policies hurts the economy of those Democrat-run states and has done little to reduce the risk of people dying with COVID. The result is better economy and also a lower number of deaths with COVID, especially when you adjust for FL older population. That is reality.

Actually, most Floridians are happy with governor DeSantis but see Cuomo as a jackass who likely contributed to some of NY's deaths with COVID, especially in nursing homes, while sexually harassing numerous young women, while the fake news media falsely portrayed him as doing a great job as governor. That is reality.

Check again as NY, NJ, & MA have higher age adjusted COVID deaths per capita than FL.

FL had some mitigation measures, but not nearly as many as the excessive ones in NY, NJ, MA, & CA that hurt the economies of those states and made things worse for most middle and working class families in those Democrat run states. And the age adjusted deaths with COVID were worse than or similar to FL thus demonstrating that DeSantis's policies were likely better than those adopted by those Democrat dominated states.

Even Bill Maher is starting to get it.

Bill Maher Praises Red States For Offering A Better Lifestyle Than Blue States – OutKick – the Conservative TAKE

theconservativetake.com

“I travel in every state now, back on the road, and the Red states are a joy and the Blue states are a pain in the a**. For no reason,” Maher admitted. Sen. Coons responded that continued COVID restrictions have been required to advertise vaccination.

Maher retorted by addressing the ignored issue of pure immunity utilized by some Red states to maneuver on from mandates. “Natural immunity is the best kind of immunity,” Maher knowledgeable the senator.

 

[Fledermaus]

You have written complete bullshit. The Delta variant is highly infectious regardless of vaccine status. Go and educate yourself.

Why Even Countries With Successful Vaccine Rate Are Struggling With Delta

People inoculated against COVID-19 are just as likely to spread the delta variant of the virus to contacts in their household as those who haven't had shots, according to new research.

www.ndtv.com

Breakthrough infection that results in fewer deaths/serious illness.

 

[Paradoxical]

FYI - I have had the chance to review some of the articles on that "Natural News" website and much of it is pseudoscientific nonsense, outright quackery, and dubious speculation. As you know I spent decades debunking quackery and pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo so I am giving you a heads up that you are going to hurt your credibility by posting links to their nonsense. I know your intentions are good so a word to the wise will hopefully be sufficient to dissuade you from relying on such an unreliable source of way too much misinformation.

As the refs sometimes say in a closely contested call "On further review ............." I do believe you're right and will cease

 

[CaughtInThe]

A lot of posts to say that we're simply going to have to let a lot of dumb parents die.

 

[Fledermaus]

Recently we do seem to be seeing well known people who have been vaccinated having heart issues…

Manchester City Star Sergio Aguero Tests Positive for Covid-19​

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

He caught it on 2021/01/21

Have you evidence he was vaccinated at that point?

 

[Fledermaus]

In the U.K. most people that died of delta Covid this past year were double vaccinated. Your idea of these vaccines being the cure for Covid has been well and truly blown out of the water. Those with excessive faith in vaccines for Coronaviruses are beginning to look a wee bit stupid.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


You were saying?

4 charts show how Covid vaccines are working in the UK

The situation is looking bad once again in Britain, but a closer look reveals that it could be lot worse without the vaccines.

www.cnbc.com

 

[snakestretcher]

They are going to the fourth jab soon. I’d be a bit sceptical about the process if I were you mate…this constant stream of boosters will probably harm your immune system. I guess the coming winter will indicate one way or the other if constant jabs of gene therapy works for or against you.

"...will probably harm your immune system..." Opinion or fact? Simple question.

 

[Ethel2]

Recently we do seem to be seeing well known people who have been vaccinated having heart issues…

Another reminder:

Number of people who have died in the entire world from heart issues related to the mRNA vaccines: ONE

How many people have now died from Covid?
Millions
Seems like a “risk” worth taking and requiring others to take as well.

 

[Ethel2]

FL is doing just fine today and quite a bit better than NY, MA, or NJ in terms of total mortality from COVID despite having an even older population. I have lived in those 3 states {and CA} and all 4 of those largely Democrat run states all have far higher taxes and also far higher housing and other costs of living than FL. FL has far fewer homeless people and a lower unemployment rate than NY, NJ, MA, & CA. I know people in all 4 states thinking of moving to FL but no one in FL thinking of moving to any of those high tax and high cost of living states and higher unemployment states run by Democrats.

While you seem eager to pretend FL is doing terribly and that older people are not far more likely to die with COVID I live here and it is obvious to that FL is doing better than those Democrat run states. Indeed, many of the older people dying in FL moved here from those 4 states [many after they retired] and so end up dying here. So FL has seen fewer deaths with COVID in older people than NY and NJ because Governor DeSantis focused more on protecting the older folks and less on forcing younger people to wear masks and lock down businesses. Those policies hurts the economy of those Democrat-run states and has done little to reduce the risk of people dying with COVID. The result is better economy and also a lower number of deaths with COVID, especially when you adjust for FL older population. That is reality.

Actually, most Floridians are happy with governor DeSantis but see Cuomo as a jackass who likely contributed to some of NY's deaths with COVID, especially in nursing homes, while sexually harassing numerous young women, while the fake news media falsely portrayed him as doing a great job as governor. That is reality.

Check again as NY, NJ, & MA have higher age adjusted COVID deaths per capita than FL.

FL had some mitigation measures, but not nearly as many as the excessive ones in NY, NJ, MA, & CA that hurt the economies of those states and made things worse for most middle and working class families in those Democrat run states. And the age adjusted deaths with COVID were worse than or similar to FL thus demonstrating that DeSantis's policies were likely better than those adopted by those Democrat dominated states.

You still can’t accept the fact that Florida ranks SEVENTH WORST in the entire country in both cases and deaths.
You can’t sugar coat that, try as you might.

 

[snakestretcher]

So all these guys who share Dr. Kulldorff's perspective are just a bunch of fringe quacks in your expert opinion?

Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.
Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.
Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

Medical and Public Health Scientists and Medical Practitioners​

Dr. Alexander Walker, principal at World Health Information Science Consultants, former Chair of Epidemiology, Harvard TH Chan School of Public Health, USA
Dr. Andrius Kavaliunas, epidemiologist and assistant professor at Karolinska Institute, Sweden
Dr. Angus Dalgleish, oncologist, infectious disease expert and professor, St. George’s Hospital Medical School, University of London, England
Dr. Anthony J Brookes, professor of genetics, University of Leicester, England
Dr. Annie Janvier, professor of pediatrics and clinical ethics, Université de Montréal and Sainte-Justine University Medical Centre, Canada
Dr. Ariel Munitz, professor of clinical microbiology and immunology, Tel Aviv University, Israel
Dr. Boris Kotchoubey, Institute for Medical Psychology, University of Tübingen, Germany
Dr. Cody Meissner, professor of pediatrics, expert on vaccine development, efficacy, and safety. Tufts University School of Medicine, USA
Dr. David Katz, physician and president, True Health Initiative, and founder of the Yale University Prevention Research Center, USA
Dr. David Livermore, microbiologist, infectious disease epidemiologist and professor, University of East Anglia, England

Kulldorff is not an epidemiologist. He is a bio-statistician. He has collaborated in epidemiological studies; not in a clinical capacity, but as a data gatherer and interpreter. He says so himself in his professional web page. And yes, a dozen or so outliers among the hundreds of thousands of equally qualified medics, worldwide, are not who anyone would defer to. Oh, and herd immunity against Covid-19 has failed wherever it was attempted-Sweden for example. To me that suggests that this recommendation that herd immunity, no masks, no social distancing has also failed in both theory and fact.

What does a biostatistician do? - CareerExplorer

A biostatistician applies statistical methods and mathematical principles to analyze and interpret data related to biological, medical, and public health research. Biostatisticians design experiments and clinical trials, collect and analyze data, and interpret the results to draw conclusions...

www.careerexplorer.com

 

[Paradoxical]

Kulldorff is not an epidemiologist. He is a bio-statistician. He has collaborated in epidemiological studies but not as a clinician. He says so himself in his professional web page. And yes, a dozen or so outliers among the hundreds of thousands of equally qualified medics, worldwide, are not who anyone would defer to. Oh, and herd immunity against Covid-19 has failed wherever it was attempted. To me that suggests that this recommendation that herd immunity, no masks, no social distancing has also failed.

Translated" My people "in authority" are the only ones Big Brother will allow you to quote.

 

[snakestretcher]

Translated" My people "in authority" are the only ones Big Brother will allow you to quote.

Hearing but not listening again? You're so good at that.

 

[Paradoxical]

Hearing but not listening again? You're so good at that.

Big Brother says to listen to only certain people "in authority" so that you too can believe 2+2=5. You don't want to go to Walinsky's re-education camps now, do you?

 

[snakestretcher]

Big Brother says to listen to only certain people "in authority" so that you too can believe 2+2=5. You don't want to go to Walinsky's re-education camps now, do you?

If you want to spend your life in terror of this fictional 'Big Brother', be my guest. Oh, and make sure you never pay your Big Brother taxes or wear a Big Brother seat belt-after all strongly-held principles matter, don't they?

 

[code1211]

We will see what the courts say. Biden is correct to use executive authority and see where it lands. Everybody needs to get vaccinated, including 5 to 11 years olds. We should simply add Covid19 vaccine to the 8-9 mandatory ones already on the books.

You say "Biden mucked things up," but in reality it is the GOP. They are ones who have no problem with people being unvaccinated or go without masks. They have no issue banning schools and businesses from imposing any type of mask or vaccine policy.

This is not an issue about freedom. It's about stopping or slowing down a public health and safety crisis. I fully expect my leaders to pull out a Teddy Roosevelt, and go aggressive.

And the thing about Biden's policy is, it impacts mostly federal workers and contractors. For the workplace requirement, it simply means you need to get tested at least once a week. What is wrong with that? That's basically kid gloves for the vaccinated.

I question the logic that leads to the conclusion you are making with the highlighted words above.

In the US, less than 0.1% of the Covid deaths are children age 0 to 19. US deaths are 766 Thousand and some change.

Less than 0.1% of this number is less than 766 kids altogether.

Within the numbers is also the frequencies among those who died that 94% had underlying conditions and 70% were over weight.

Take out the numbers of kids that have underlying conditions and that are overweight and suddenly that number of kids who died from Covid is down to 13 kids who were not overweight and had no underlying condition.

You are talking about vaccinating about 82 million kids aged 0 to 19 to prevent the deaths of about 13 kids. The effectiveness of the vaccinations doesn't seem to enhance their natural immunity in any event to any appreciable degree.

Additionally, we KNOW from our experience with the vaccines that the number of cases is not really affected too much- it is the severity of infection that is reduced. US Cases: 46.8+ Million.

With kids, obviously, the severity is ALREADY reduced. That is why so few die. We are once again acting like the entire population is at the identical risk when the actual at-risk population is very small and easily identified.

I know the companies making the vaccines and the politicians they bribe want this to happen so they can all get richer.

The medical underpinnings of this seem to be missing entirely.

 

[snakestretcher]

I question the logic that leads to the conclusion you are making with the highlighted words above.

In the US, less than 0.1% of the Covid deaths are children age 0 to 19. US deaths are 766 Thousand and some change.

Less than 0.1% of this number is less than 766 kids altogether.

Within the numbers is also the frequencies among those who died that 94% had underlying conditions and 70% were over weight.

Take out the numbers of kids that have underlying conditions and that are overweight and suddenly that number of kids who died from Covid is down to 13 kids who were not overweight and had no underlying condition.

You are talking about vaccinating about 82 million kids aged 0 to 19 to prevent the deaths of about 13 kids. The effectiveness of the vaccinations doesn't seem to enhance their natural immunity in any event to any appreciable degree.

Additionally, we KNOW from our experience with the vaccines that the number of cases is not really affected too much- it is the severity of infection that is reduced. US Cases: 46.8+ Million.

With kids, obviously, the severity is ALREADY reduced. That is why so few die. We are once again acting like the entire population is at the identical risk when the actual at-risk population is very small and easily identified.

I know the companies making the vaccines and the politicians they bribe want this to happen so they can all get richer.

The medical underpinnings of this seem to be missing entirely.

You "know" politicians are being bribed by pharmaceutical companies "so they can all get richer"? I guess you must have incontrovertible evidence to support your conspiracy theory then. Let's have it-or be a man and admit you just made that up because it's what you prefer to believe.

 

[code1211]

Nope
But I wonder why your read useless rags like The Daily Mail.

I gather information from any sources and then ask this question:

"If this is true, what else must be true".

You would be wise to ask the same question.

It is also wise to always remember this observation about propaganda from the old Soviet Union:

“There is no truth in Izvestiya and there is no information in Pravda.”

 

[code1211]

Your statement that suicides are up has been disproven. Regardless if they declined by 6% or 1% there is no evidence that what you wrote is factually correct.
I understand that you don’t like the data because it doesn’t fit with your narrative. I provided data from a reputable source to disprove your claim; you provided your opinion.
Must be pretty embarrassing for you.

So you did not even read either your own source or mine.

Interesting, disappointing and expected.

 

[code1211]

Perhaps, but as I said severe outcome is not the only metric used to decide these things. Measles and Mums vaccines are mandated and they rarely have severe outcomes. I don't support vaccine mandates for any vaccine without full approvals but once that happens and data supports efficacy and safety I'm for them. My biggest reason is so the kids can dump those damn masks! Masks in school are mandated here and unless the entire school is vaccinated I support that but I would love to see the kids without them.

EVERY VACCINE MANDATE currently guiding our population is issued at the State Level.

Federal Vaccine Mandates are illegal.

In its ongoing drive to delegitimize every law and the entire Constitution, the Democrats seem bent on doing this yet again with yet another part of our law.

Thank God that Merrick Garland is NOT a justice on the Supreme Court!

 

[Fledermaus]

EVERY VACCINE MANDATE currently guiding our population is issued at the State Level.

Federal Vaccine Mandates are illegal.

In its ongoing drive to delegitimize every law and the entire Constitution, the Democrats seem bent on doing this yet again with yet another part of our law.

Thank God that Merrick Garland is NOT a justice on the Supreme Court!

Why are federal vaccine mandates "illegal"?

 

[code1211]

Yeah
The experts are wrong and an internet hack who goes by Code1211 is right.
I think I’ll stick with people who know what they are talking about.
Still think suicides are up during the pandemic despite solid evidence to the contrary?

You seem to have a deep and unrelenting aversion to looking at any fact before you.

 

[Ethel2]

So you did not even read either your own source or mine.

Interesting, disappointing and expected.

I read my source: it clearly stated that suicides are down 6% from 2019-2020 and that it’s the second straight year of decline.
You are not entitled to your own set of facts.

 

[Ethel2]

I gather information from any sources and then ask this question:

"If this is true, what else must be true".

You would be wise to ask the same question.

It is also wise to always remember this observation about propaganda from the old Soviet Union:

“There is no truth in Izvestiya and there is no information in Pravda.”

I suggest reading The National Enquirer and Mad Magazine. You can never tell what pearls of wisdom might be gleaned from those sources.

 

[jaeger19]

The risk of severe outcomes for those under 18 does not make mandatory vaccination of that age group an open and shut case. The risk. Is minuscule and really doesn’t warrant a mandate.

Based on a scientific risk vs benefits paradigm ...the benefits of vaccination for this group outweigh the risks

 

[code1211]

This current group of left-wing posters is exactly like eth talking heads on CNN and MSNBS, people like Stelter, Cuomo, Blitzer, Joy Reid, Jake Tapper as well as the NY Times and WaPo. They are wrong time after time after endless time and win Pulitzer prizes from their buddies for being wrong and no matter the proof we give them they are wrong they just keep repeating the same memes and lies as if they believe 2+2 really does equal 5 and everyone else should believe that too. They have a malfunction of the brain and cognitic=ve dissonance where they are not connected to reality or the truth and project that onto all others.

A prime example is your cases of masks and alleged super spreaders. There is not ONER ounce of evidence masks work and yet they keep saying they do. The super spreaders after football games and Trump concerts never happened and yet they still assert masks work and people were gonna die after those events. Yet, there was NO difference....mask free people did NOT die at a higher rate, and yet they ignore the facts,.

It really is amazing. It seems like they never really learn and they never really change: