Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[Ethel2]

THIS is why we needed lockdowns:

OMAHA, NEB. >> At least 59,000 meatpacking workers caught COVID-19 and 269 workers died when the virus tore through the industry last year, which is significantly more than previously thought, according to a new U.S. House report released Wednesday.

 

[jaeger19]

THIS is why we needed lockdowns:

OMAHA, NEB. >> At least 59,000 meatpacking workers caught COVID-19 and 269 workers died when the virus tore through the industry last year, which is significantly more than previously thought, according to a new U.S. House report released Wednesday.

Yes.. but those 59,000 meat packers were all " elderly..and fat.. and weak.. and would have died anyway."
Oh wait....

 

[Gaius46]

The bottom line is this:

The ONLY people that Covid-19 kills in any, remotely significant numbers are old farts and the weak.
That is a 100% fact.

COVID-19 Testing Tracker

Statewide tests and positive cases

covid19tracker.health.ny.gov

What Covid Cowards are basically saying is that they don't care what rights the government takes away, how much it destroys people's businesses, the economy? How many extra suicides, how much extra domestic violence and delays in life-saving surgeries and treatments. How many poor people starve to death.
They are basically saying that NOTHING else matters.
No cost in terms of lost money or lives caused by the lockdowns.

In other words?
Covid Cowards are willing to throw everyone and everything under the bus...just to make themselves feel a little safer?

I KNOW one thing.
If I were old or weak (i.e. vulnerable to dying of Covid-19).
The LAST thing I would want is for the world to put itself through misery just to save my neck.
That's because I have (at least some) honor.
And Covid Cowards have little/none.

They claim they are 'trying to save lives'.
WRONG!!!
They are trying to save their life and/or someone they care about.

I wish they at least had the guts to admit they are cowards.
That would be something.

What rights are you going on about?

The states have the right to enforce both mask and vaccination mandates under the 10th amendment. You do you not have the legal right under US law to refuse either without consequence.

The government isn't taking away your rights because you didn't have them in the first place.

 

[RealityChecker]

Yes.. but those 59,000 meat packers were all " elderly..and fat.. and weak.. and would have died anyway."
Oh wait....

Do you have any evidence that the meat packers who died were not overweight, hypertensive, diabetic, asthmatics, and/or had other serious illnesses? And what was the median age of meat packers and the meat packers who died with COVID? It is likely those who died with COVID were older, fatter, and more likely to have HTN and diabetes than those who survived the infection.

Of course, while it is certain they would have died as 100% of people do die sooner or later, it is more than likely most of them would have lived longer than the typical nursing home or hospice resident. Also 269 deaths out of 59,000 workers shows COVID is not a particularly deadly disease. No doubt the diagnosed cases also underestimates the total number who were infected. And it is doubtful many of those deaths occurred in vaccinated workers and odds are few if any were treated with monoclonal antibodies. So by now most have probably been vaccinated and probably over half have naturally acquired immunity so deaths with CoVID among meat packers will likely be far lower in 2022 than in 2020 and 2021. It would not surprise me if we saw more deaths with the seasonal flu and pneumonia in 2022 than with COVID.

 

[uptower]

 

[Callen]

have any evidence that the meat packers who died were not overweight, hypertensive, diabetic, asthmatics, and/or had other serious illnesses? And what was the median age of meat packers and the meat packers who died with COVID? It is likely those who died with COVID were older, fatter, and more likely to have HTN and diabetes than those who survived the infection.

Here we go again.....yes 269 of 59,000 who got sick died and that's not a good thing, but much more importantly the outbreak caused 59,000 workers to become ill shutting down the meat packing operations and thus interrupting the supply chain. Dead is not the only metric!!!!

 

[Ethel2]

Do you have any evidence that the meat packers who died were not overweight, hypertensive, diabetic, asthmatics, and/or had other serious illnesses? And what was the median age of meat packers and the meat packers who died with COVID? It is likely those who died with COVID were older, fatter, and more likely to have HTN and diabetes than those who survived the infection.

Of course, while it is certain they would have died as 100% of people do die sooner or later, it is more than likely most of them would have lived longer than the typical nursing home or hospice resident. Also 269 deaths out of 59,000 workers shows COVID is not a particularly deadly disease. No doubt the diagnosed cases also underestimates the total number who were infected. And it is doubtful many of those deaths occurred in vaccinated workers and odds are few if any were treated with monoclonal antibodies. So by now most have probably been vaccinated and probably over half have naturally acquired immunity so deaths with CoVID among meat packers will likely be far lower in 2022 than in 2020 and 2021. It would not surprise me if we saw more deaths with the seasonal flu and pneumonia in 2022 than with COVID.

Dead is dead no matter how much a person weighs, no matter what comorbidities they had. Perhaps they don’t count for you. They do for normal people who have a little compassion.
That’s why we needed lockdowns. No lockdowns = hundreds more workers dead.

 

[RealityChecker]

Dead is dead no matter how much a person weighs, no matter what comorbidities they had.

True but who claimed that was not the case? Let us not pretend that the risk of dying with COVID is significantly greater for people who are older, obese, and especially if they have type 2 DM and HTN. And we are all going to die sooner or later. If you want it to be later there are many things that will markedly cut the risk of dying. Wearing cloth face masks is not one of those things. Indeed, had they locked down these meat processing plants and Americans ate far less meat for a year or two that would likely have saved far more lives than those 269 deaths with COVID in 2020 + 2021. So if the goal is government mandating things to save lives is justified in your mind then perhaps we should have locked down those meat packing plants? Indeed, why not do it now because government have the right to take away your liberty to reduce your risk of dying, right?

Perhaps they don’t count for you.

I said nothing that implied that so that is just a lame ad hominem insult.

They do for normal people who have a little compassion.

Perhaps not so much for those lacking compassion, but I am sure for most people all lives matter.

That’s why we needed lockdowns. No lockdowns = hundreds more workers dead.

But they didn't lock down the meat packing plants and 269 workers died from COVID that most likely picked up at work. My guess is that locking down those meat packing plants would have saved thousands of lives from a reduction in CVD, CA, diabetes, and numerous other ills all caused in part by a diet high in meat.

 

[RealityChecker]

Here we go again.....yes 269 of 59,000 who got sick died and that's not a good thing,

Did someone claim it was?

but much more importantly the outbreak caused 59,000 workers to become ill shutting down the meat packing operations and thus interrupting the supply chain.

But wait, all that meat is killing more Americans than the 269 who died processing that meat. If the goal is saving lives why not just ban meat? And all those cattle produce a lot of methane that is a potent greenhouse gas so this helps with global warming too! Win-Win?

Dead is not the only metric!!!!

True, but if avoiding (okay perhaps putting it off) death justifies the loss of individual liberty seems to me the government needs to ban meat to save lives and the environment. Is that not what you progressive lefties want?

 

[Callen]

But wait, all that meat is killing more Americans than the 269 who died processing that meat. If the goal is saving lives why not just ban meat? And all those cattle produce a lot of methane that is a potent greenhouse gas so this helps with global warming too! Win-Win?

True, but if avoiding (okay perhaps putting it off) death justifies the loss of individual liberty seems to me the government needs to ban meat to save lives and the environment. Is that not what you progressive lefties want?

What a bizarre diversion. That's about all I can say....totally bizarre and disconnected from reality.

 

[Ethel2]

True but who claimed that was not the case? Let us not pretend that the risk of dying with COVID is significantly greater for people who are older, obese, and especially if they have type 2 DM and HTN. And we are all going to die sooner or later. If you want it to be later there are many things that will markedly cut the risk of dying. Wearing cloth face masks is not one of those things. Indeed, had they locked down these meat processing plants and Americans ate far less meat for a year or two that would likely have saved far more lives than those 269 deaths with COVID in 2020 + 2021. So if the goal is government mandating things to save lives is justified in your mind then perhaps we should have locked down those meat packing plants? Indeed, why not do it now because government have the right to take away your liberty to reduce your risk of dying, right?

I said nothing that implied that so that is just a lame ad hominem insult.

Perhaps not so much for those lacking compassion, but I am sure for most people all lives matter.

But they didn't lock down the meat packing plants and 269 workers died from COVID that most likely picked up at work. My guess is that locking down those meat packing plants would have saved thousands of lives from a reduction in CVD, CA, diabetes, and numerous other ills all caused in part by a diet high in meat.

You continually miss the point. Had the meat packing plants been locked down at the first sign of an outbreak hundreds of lives likely would have been saved. Same with other businesses where workers can’t keep their distance from others. The more complete the lockdowns the less the transmission, the fewer the death toll. I was in favor of a near total lockdown with only medical emergencies and infrastructure support personnel being permitted to travel. And if there was a safe and effective vaccine for obesity and CVD people should be encouraged to take it, but not required to do so because no one ever endangered anyone else with their weight problems.

 

[jaeger19]

Do you have any evidence that the meat packers who died were not overweight, hypertensive, diabetic, asthmatics, and/or had other serious illnesses? And what was the median age of meat packers and the meat packers who died with COVID? It is likely those who died with COVID were older, fatter, and more likely to have HTN and diabetes than those who survived the infection.

Of course, while it is certain they would have died as 100% of people do die sooner or later, it is more than likely most of them would have lived longer than the typical nursing home or hospice resident. Also 269 deaths out of 59,000 workers shows COVID is not a particularly deadly disease. No doubt the diagnosed cases also underestimates the total number who were infected. And it is doubtful many of those deaths occurred in vaccinated workers and odds are few if any were treated with monoclonal antibodies. So by now most have probably been vaccinated and probably over half have naturally acquired immunity so deaths with CoVID among meat packers will likely be far lower in 2022 than in 2020 and 2021. It would not surprise me if we saw more deaths with the seasonal flu and pneumonia in 2022 than with COVID.

See.. you just made my point.
59,000 workers got sick.
Which meant.. EVEN if they had almost no symptoms.. they had to quarantine.. which caused supply chain disruptions.. which cost the business money..
And if they had symptoms that required them to stay longer at home.. it cost even more.
IF they have long haul covid.. or if they suffered damage that continues.. it will cost even more.. for example the cost to the health insurance the company has.
If they were hospitalized.. it costs even more.

The emergence of COVID-19 in the United States has created substantial challenges for all segments of the meat supply chain, but especially for producers and consumers. Beginning in April 2020, outbreaks of COVID-19 at meatpacking plants led to significant disruptions and created issues of oversupply and low prices for livestock producers. These disruptions temporarily reduced meat production, which led to higher prices for consumers, making it more difficult for some households to purchase meat. Consumers also shifted purchases of meat from foodservice to retail outlets, creating logistical challenges in the supply chain and putting additional upward pressure on wholesale and retail prices. Meat production continued to lag 2019 levels even after plants reopened, and changing consumer patterns could have persistent effects on supply chains.

https://www.kansascityfed.org/agriculture/ag-outlooks/COVID-19-US-Meat-Supply-Chain/

 

[jaeger19]

You continually miss the point. Had the meat packing plants been locked down at the first sign of an outbreak hundreds of lives likely would have been saved. Same with other businesses where workers can’t keep their distance from others. The more complete the lockdowns the less the transmission, the fewer the death toll. I was in favor of a near total lockdown with only medical emergencies and infrastructure support personnel being permitted to travel. And if there was a safe and effective vaccine for obesity and CVD people should be encouraged to take it, but not required to do so because no one ever endangered anyone else with their weight problems.

Actually I think the lockdowns were too little too late. The lockdowns did occur... but only after there was an severe outbreak. Which meant it was likely too late.

What should have happened is masking and social distancing with good testing and contract tracing.

 

[Grim17]

Dead is dead no matter how much a person weighs, no matter what comorbidities they had.

Those people, along with the elderly, are the people that the government should have been focused on protecting right from the beginning, instead of acting like covid posed a mortal danger to everyone equally.

.

 

[Ethel2]

Those people, along with the elderly, are the people that the government should have been focused on protecting right from the beginning, instead of acting like covid posed a mortal danger to everyone equally.

.

And exactly how do you suggest that these people be “protected “?

 

[RealityChecker]

You continually miss the point. Had the meat packing plants been locked down at the first sign of an outbreak hundreds of lives likely would have been saved.

You are the one missing my pints. There are about 1/2 million meat packing workers. So in 2 years 269 died with COVID. Do you believe that none of them would have died if they had just locked down the processing plants? In the US today we know at least 150 to 200 million Americans have caught the Wuhan virus. That is close to half the US population. Let's say that 269K meat packing workers got infected. That is about 1 in a thousand over nearly two years. The truth is if you look at deaths with COVID there is not much evidence that people who lost their jobs avoided being infected with the Wuhan virus. Far more lives could be saved by banning meat than could possibly been saved by locking down meat processing plants. Should the government ban meat to save lives? How did banning alcohol work?

Same with other businesses where workers can’t keep their distance from others. The more complete the lockdowns the less the transmission, the fewer the death toll.

Actually, deaths among workers with COVID who got laid off was not much different than those that kept working. We

I was in favor of a near total lockdown with only medical emergencies and infrastructure support personnel being permitted to travel.

So basically house arrest for everyone except for MDs then? Lucky you. House arrest even to protect school age kids who have more to fear from catching the flu than the Wuhan virus!? Do you how inane and hypocritical your argument is?

And if there was a safe and effective vaccine for obesity and CVD people should be encouraged to take it, but not required to do so because no one ever endangered anyone else with their weight problems.

Actually, it turns out there is a safe and effective way to prevent over 90% of obesity and even largely reverse excessive fat stores. And we can also prevent probably 90% of CVD morbidity and mortality and most cancers and type 2 diabetes too. Of course, the prevention and treatment of those diseases that kill far more Americans than COVID every year and it does not even require MDs, drugs or surgeries. And while the lock downs, face masks, social distancing, travel restrictions in the end proved largely useless for preventing the spread of the Wuhan virus they did appear to prevent the spread of the seasonal flu and likely prevented a few tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of those of severe illness and hospitalization. So how about lock downs, mask mandates, social distancing, no more concerts, movies, sports events, or in person schools and college classes, etc.. If savings lives and enriching the medical establishment trumps individual liberty and free enterprise in your socialist utopian ideology why not? I mean only a callous person would oppose saving lives, right?

 

[code1211]

Pretty funny
Your proposal to completely isolated the vulnerable population is a joke as Jaeger pointed out.
I don’t think all the world leaders are brilliant-just smarter than you as evidenced by your denying the science of reducing person to person exposure as a means to reduce viral transmission.

I don't deny science. I observe the empirical facts that you deny and then propose an alternate course of action that would very likely have been more effective and less damaging.

Did I say "completely isolate" or are you making that up?

The society was ruined. Suicides, murders, overdoses, assaults, riots, arson, vandalism, societal division, drop out rates and interrupted educations all up. Do you call this success?

Denying that the processes employed were flawed is a great way to repeat the mistakes the next time we have the opportunity.

As far as I know, China is still operating labs. Seems like every 5 to 10 years they develop and unleash another SARS-type virus on the world.

It might be wise to understand and study what mistakes occurred this time because the next time is coming with the certainty of tomorrow's Sun rise.

China's biolabs have REPEATEDLY released deadly viruses onto the world

CHINA’S gung ho approach to biolab safety means the theory that Covid came from one in Wuhan is no shock. The country has seen at major leaks from labs in the past, while the poor protection given …

www.the-sun.com

 

[snakestretcher]

Actually I think the lockdowns were too little too late. The lockdowns did occur... but only after there was an severe outbreak. Which meant it was likely too late.

What should have happened is masking and social distancing with good testing and contract tracing.

They were also lifted far too early. Remember what happened after last summer (2020)? Infection rates rocketed. With the UK now reporting some 40,000 new cases daily, I guarantee either lockdown or mask mandates will be reintroduced soon enough. Contact tracing failed miserably here...

“Unimaginable” cost of Test & Trace failed to deliver central promise of averting another lockdown - Committees - UK Parliament

<p>In May last year NHS Test and Trace (NHST&T) was set up with a budget of £22 billion. Since then it has been allocated £15 billion more: totalling £37 billion over two years.</p>

committees.parliament.uk

 

[RealityChecker]

Actually I think the lockdowns were too little too late. The lockdowns did occur... but only after there was an severe outbreak. Which meant it was likely too late.

What should have happened is masking and social distancing with good testing and contract tracing.

I largely agree. By the time lock downs started at the end of March it was already too late to contain COVID in the US. Sadly, it was the failure of the CDC to produce an effective and quick diagnostic test for COVID that made good testing and contract tracing such a dismal failure in the USA. This failure was something I was complaining about back in late January and February 2020. Clearly the US was ill prepared for this pandemic.

 

[code1211]

That'st eh trouble, don't you. The information you claim is accurate is , well, cherry picked, and not examining the actual evidence for your claim. The claim you make does not match the data. You ignore certain things to make your case.

Are you asserting, then, that no money from the US allocated by Fauci was used to support labs where these beagles were killed?

 

[RealityChecker]

They were also lifted far too early. Remember what happened after last summer (2020)? Infection rates rocketed. With the UK now reporting some 40,000 new cases daily, I guarantee either lockdown or mask mandates will be reintroduced soon enough.

Actually, as 90%+ of Americans at high risk of serious illness from COVID are either vaccinated and/or have natural immunity I see not compelling reason to be locking down the whole country. It would not surprise me if more American die from other respiratory infections in 2022 than from COVID. We shall see.

 

[code1211]

Why do you even read a piece of junk like The Daily Mail?

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​

A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

• Overall, we rate Daily Mail Right Biased and Questionable due to numerous failed fact checks and poor information sourcing.

Daily Mail - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Are you asserting that no American money was supporting the expenses of the labs in which the Beagles were killed?

 

[snakestretcher]

Are you asserting that no American money was supporting the expenses of the labs in which the Beagles were killed?

If you believe anything the sensationalist, hard-right tabloid, Daily Mail, prints unquestioned, you'll believe a WW2 bomber was found on the Moon. That's the level of 'journalism' the Daily Mail provides, but dressed up. https://www.mailwatch.co.uk/

 

[jaeger19]

I largely agree. By the time lock downs started at the end of March it was already too late to contain COVID in the US. Sadly, it was the failure of the CDC to produce an effective and quick diagnostic test for COVID that made good testing and contract tracing such a dismal failure in the USA. This failure was something I was complaining about back in late January and February 2020. Clearly the US was ill prepared for this pandemic.

Actually..it was the failure of the Trump administration to adequately prepare for and address covid.
The Trump administration knew in November 19 that China had a new deadly virus . Yet it did nothing to prepare for it.
Heck they spent more time denying it than preparing.
Ppe supplies and ventilator supplies and testing supplies should have been and could have been in place before March.
There should have been a coordinated plan with homeland security.the cdc and the tsa to stop test and quarantine people flying in to tge us instead of the cluster that trump created.
Precious months and tens of thousands of lives were lost as Trump denied..and lied and politicized covid.
His incompetence and lies still resonate today in the people who refuse to vaccinate who refuse to wear masks ..that gather together ...against medical advice..
Because Trump told them medical experts were idiots.
You continue to propagate that false idea.

 

[Ethel2]

I don't deny science. I observe the empirical facts that you deny and then propose an alternate course of action that would very likely have been more effective and less damaging.

Did I say "completely isolate" or are you making that up?

The society was ruined. Suicides, murders, overdoses, assaults, riots, arson, vandalism, societal division, drop out rates and interrupted educations all up. Do you call this success?

Denying that the processes employed were flawed is a great way to repeat the mistakes the next time we have the opportunity.

As far as I know, China is still operating labs. Seems like every 5 to 10 years they develop and unleash another SARS-type virus on the world.

It might be wise to understand and study what mistakes occurred this time because the next time is coming with the certainty of tomorrow's Sun rise.

China's biolabs have REPEATEDLY released deadly viruses onto the world

CHINA’S gung ho approach to biolab safety means the theory that Covid came from one in Wuhan is no shock. The country has seen at major leaks from labs in the past, while the poor protection given …

www.the-sun.com

You really should check your facts before you post your nonsense. For example, suicide rates declined from 2019 to 2020 by 6%, the largest decline in four decades. Isn’t this embarrassing for you?
And yes, you do deny science. Keeping people apart has been used for decades or longer by REAL scientists and doctors as a means to control infectious diseases.
Here is the embarrassing data on suicides. Any comment? Is the government conspiring to hide the real suicide rate?

US suicides dropped last year, defying pandemic expectations

NEW YORK (AP) — The number of U.S. suicides fell nearly 6% last year amid the coronavirus pandemic — the largest annual decline in at least four decades, according to preliminary government data.

apnews.com