Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[snakestretcher]

You really are a slave to the propagandists, aren't you.

If they tell you to not ask any questions, then you don't.

The ultra-conservative, sensationalist Daily Mail is so notorious for printing lies, distortion and outright fabrication that it rivals the New York Post. So much so that it has an entire web forum dedicated to exposing them. You better be well-armed with a fact-checker if you're dumb enough to read the Mail.

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www.mailwatch.co.uk

Wikipedia bans Daily Mail as 'unreliable' source

Online encyclopaedia editors rule out publisher as a reference citing ‘reputation for poor fact checking and sensationalism’

www.theguardian.com

Then again if you want a scoop on Kim Kardashian's latest tit job, the Daily Mail is your go-to for journalistic excellence and impeccably-sourced integrity.

 

[code1211]

Kids are not immune.

That is a bad faced lie.

Sorry. I should have said comparatively immune.

Until the distribution of the vaccine to the folks who were more severely at risk, those aged 60 and older comprised more than 92% of those who died with Covid. They lined up to get the vaccine.

At that same time, kids aged 19 and younger comprised less than 0.1% of those who died with Covid.

Since the vaccine was issued and used by the most threatened, the aged share of with Covid deaths has reduced to about 47% of the total while the share among the kids is still less than 0.1%

Of the almost 760 Thousand dead with Covid in the US, less than 760 were younger than 20 years. Less than 0.1%

Also within the stats, though, is that about 94% of the dead with Covid had underlying conditions. This would reduce the death toll among PREVIOUSLY HEALTHY kids to about 46 KIDS.

While every death is a tragedy and deaths among kids is even more tragic, this is a very small number. This averages to less than one child younger than 20 years per state across the outbreak.

This is less than traffic, poison, suffocation, drowning and almost any cause of deaths in children younger than 20 that is measured by our health industry.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr1804754

 

[code1211]

The "infirm" are those with autoimmune issues, cancer/ cancer survivors, transplants, heart patients, Down Syndrome, MD, MS, children. There are more but that's a large number of vulnerable people.

I think that those with lung problems of any sort are also in the groups most affected. Asthma, I thought, was another of the underlying conditions that caused a heightened threat level.

I could be wrong.

Members of the group with underlying conditions and those aged 60 and older make up a huge share of the dead from a comparatively small number in the Universe of potential victims.

760,000 dead with Covid. Before the vaccine, 92% were the aged. 94% were the infirm.

So take 8% of the dead and that is the death toll among the younger than 60 crowd. Only 6% of them had no underlying conditions.

That resulting number is 3,648 dead attributed to Covid.

We should have moved Heaven and Earth to protect the vulnerable and let the rest of the population work as per normal.

We used an atom bomb to swat a fly.

 

[snakestretcher]

Sorry. I should have said comparatively immune.

Until the distribution of the vaccine to the folks who were more severely at risk, those aged 60 and older comprised more than 92% of those who died with Covid. They lined up to get the vaccine.

At that same time, kids aged 19 and younger comprised less than 0.1% of those who died with Covid.

Since the vaccine was issued and used by the most threatened, the aged share of with Covid deaths has reduced to about 47% of the total while the share among the kids is still less than 0.1%

Of the almost 760 Thousand dead with Covid in the US, less than 760 were younger than 20 years. Less than 0.1%

Also within the stats, though, is that about 94% of the dead with Covid had underlying conditions. This would reduce the death toll among PREVIOUSLY HEALTHY kids to about 46 KIDS.

While every death is a tragedy and deaths among kids is even more tragic, this is a very small number. This averages to less than one child younger than 20 years per state across the outbreak.

This is less than traffic, poison, suffocation, drowning and almost any cause of deaths in children younger than 20 that is measured by our health industry.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr1804754

Point taken; that kid may be 'comparatively immune' from serious illness, but he/she can still be infectious and a danger to others-unlike the non-contagious deaths from your examples

 

[code1211]

It’s consistent with his style of posting, a style that eschews science and common sense in favor of wishful thinking.

Picking an omission of a word to argue with is disingenuous at best.

Kids, aged 19 and younger comprise less than 0.1% of the deaths of Americans With Covid in the US.

That grisly number stands currently at less than 760 total across the entire outbreak. Take away the statistical share of those with underlying conditions and the number of dead among kids falls to about 45 across the entire out break.

Your lack of honesty, integrity and knowledge is no different in this post than in any other post you make.

 

[Ethel2]

I think that those with lung problems of any sort are also in the groups most affected. Asthma, I thought, was another of the underlying conditions that caused a heightened threat level.

I could be wrong.

Members of the group with underlying conditions and those aged 60 and older make up a huge share of the dead from a comparatively small number in the Universe of potential victims.

760,000 dead with Covid. Before the vaccine, 92% were the aged. 94% were the infirm.

So take 8% of the dead and that is the death toll among the younger than 60 crowd. Only 6% of them had no underlying conditions.

That resulting number is 3,648 dead attributed to Covid.

We should have moved Heaven and Earth to protect the vulnerable and let the rest of the population work as per normal.

We used an atom bomb to swat a fly.

Exactly how do you “protect the vulnerable “ while letting everyone else carry on as normal? What an idiotic idea. And exactly how do you know that hundreds of thousands more Americans would not have died but for the wisdom of the government employing lockdowns?

You are not smarter than every world leader.

 

[RealityChecker]

Exactly how do you “protect the vulnerable “ while letting everyone else carry on as normal? What an idiotic idea. And exactly how do you know that hundreds of thousands more Americans would not have died but for the wisdom of the government employing lockdowns?

How do you know that fewer Americans would have died if the government had not locked down so many businesses (including access to medical care including "elective" surgeries, some of which save lives and others at least improve the quality of life. And look at the harm down to children by locking down schools and/or forcing kids to wear face masks that do little of nothing to protect them from SARS-CoV2 but make social interactions more challenging.

“One example is from Sweden, during the first wave in the spring of 2020, which affected Sweden quite strongly,” Kulldorff said. “But Sweden decided to keep daycare and schools open for all children ages 1 to 15. And there are 1.8 million such children who got through the first wave without vaccines, of course, without masks, without any sort of distancing in schools. This is professor Kulldorff's take:

“If a child was sick, they were told to stay home. But that was basically it. And you know how many of those 1.8 million children died from COVID? Zero. Only a few hospitalizations. So this is not a risky disease for children. When weighing whether to vaccinate children, the risk of vaccine side effects must also be taken into account. The main risk to young people seen so far is heart inflammation, which has occurred post-vaccination at much higher than expected rates. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) added a warning label to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines over the summer about myocarditis and pericarditis, two types of heart inflammation." Dr. Kulldorff more here:

Children Shouldn’t Get COVID-19 Vaccines, Harvard Professor Says

www.theepochtimes.com

You are not smarter than every world leader.

I am sure he is smarter than the world leader who is trying to force all Americans to get vaccinated despite the fact that the evidence of safety and efficacy varies markedly that the decision ought to be up to the individual and their MD and not the government and especially the POTUS.

 

[jpn]

Here's the best argument I've seen yet for getting vaccinated:

 

[jpn]

Among both groups, it seems like the three most threatened groups, the elderly, the obese and the infirm, should be defined within the numbers.
The site seems to stress, "fully vaccinated" and infections rather than deaths.
Also omitted is the data showing if the infected in either line are recovered from previous infections and therefore have anti bodies or are infected for the first time.
In almost every example of "information" issued by our government, information that they would have presented if they were honest dealers is withheld and propaganda that serves their purposes and goals is presented.
To me, this is worrisome.

Totally. You're SO much better off doing your own "research" into things for which you have zero expertise.

Oh, and watching Fox "News" nonstop, too.

 

[jaeger19]

Sorry. I should have said comparatively immune.

Until the distribution of the vaccine to the folks who were more severely at risk, those aged 60 and older comprised more than 92% of those who died with Covid. They lined up to get the vaccine.

At that same time, kids aged 19 and younger comprised less than 0.1% of those who died with Covid.

Since the vaccine was issued and used by the most threatened, the aged share of with Covid deaths has reduced to about 47% of the total while the share among the kids is still less than 0.1%

Of the almost 760 Thousand dead with Covid in the US, less than 760 were younger than 20 years. Less than 0.1%

Also within the stats, though, is that about 94% of the dead with Covid had underlying conditions. This would reduce the death toll among PREVIOUSLY HEALTHY kids to about 46 KIDS.

While every death is a tragedy and deaths among kids is even more tragic, this is a very small number. This averages to less than one child younger than 20 years per state across the outbreak.

This is less than traffic, poison, suffocation, drowning and almost any cause of deaths in children younger than 20 that is measured by our health industry.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr1804754

So its cool then?
I mean whats your point?
I don;t understand this line you got going here.

 

[Ethel2]

How do you know that fewer Americans would have died if the government had not locked down so many businesses (including access to medical care including "elective" surgeries, some of which save lives and others at least improve the quality of life. And look at the harm down to children by locking down schools and/or forcing kids to wear face masks that do little of nothing to protect them from SARS-CoV2 but make social interactions more challenging.

“One example is from Sweden, during the first wave in the spring of 2020, which affected Sweden quite strongly,” Kulldorff said. “But Sweden decided to keep daycare and schools open for all children ages 1 to 15. And there are 1.8 million such children who got through the first wave without vaccines, of course, without masks, without any sort of distancing in schools. This is professor Kulldorff's take:

“If a child was sick, they were told to stay home. But that was basically it. And you know how many of those 1.8 million children died from COVID? Zero. Only a few hospitalizations. So this is not a risky disease for children. When weighing whether to vaccinate children, the risk of vaccine side effects must also be taken into account. The main risk to young people seen so far is heart inflammation, which has occurred post-vaccination at much higher than expected rates. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) added a warning label to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines over the summer about myocarditis and pericarditis, two types of heart inflammation." Dr. Kulldorff more here:

Children Shouldn’t Get COVID-19 Vaccines, Harvard Professor Says

www.theepochtimes.com

I am sure he is smarter than the world leader who is trying to force all Americans to get vaccinated despite the fact that the evidence of safety and efficacy varies markedly that the decision ought to be up to the individual and their MD and not the government and especially the POTUS.

I don't know. Neither does he. Thats the point. There is no comparable country to serve as a control group to see what would have happened had we not had lockdowns. In the entire world the only country that didn't have a significant lockdown was Sweden, and they have a horrible track record compared to comparable countries. So when data is absent you have to depend on common sense, and that is sorely lacking among the right wing covidiots who want to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it. If you keep people separated there is less transmission. Common sense, and a tactic that has been used by epidemiologists for decades, if not longer. As you know, I will not debate facts here, so I will not comment on face masks. They work. Its a fact. There is ample evidence for that. As for lockdowns you have to rely on logic and common sense. Its why nearly every nation on earth utilized them. So no, Code isn't smarter than every world leader at all. Unfortunately his posts reveal a very poor understanding of the basic tenets of epidemiology.
Sweden took it on the chin compared to its neighbors:

Sweden has also recorded around 145 COVID-19 deaths for every 100,000 people — around three times more than Denmark, eight times more than Finland, and nearly 10 times more than Norway

A year and a half after Sweden decided not to lock down, its COVID-19 death rate is up to 10 times higher than its neighbors

Sweden may have seen fewer people die of COVID-19 had it implemented tighter lockdown rules or mask mandates.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[jaeger19]

But most of the WWII deaths were young and healthy people and the vast majority of deaths with COVID were in people 60y or older and 95% had at least one other serious illness that put them at higher risk of serious illness and death if infected.

Umm.. first thats not really true.. WW2 deaths were likely much higher in the elderly.. civilians who could not evacuate when cities were bombed.. who were most at risk when medical supplies and food ran low because of war shortages.. when medical care was unavailable.. etc.
But the value you put on human life based age and fitness is noted.

While 15 countries have seen higher deaths with COVID-19. Countries with older, fatter, and sicker people tended to see more deaths. Not many countries are worse off than the US in those risk stats. Also the final numbers are not in. Do we know which countries with see the most deaths per capita adjusted for age in 2022? Nope. But past performance is not indicative of future performance.

Thanks to vaccines and naturally acquired immunity far fewer Americans are now likely to die from CoVID. Add in the advances in the medical treatment of COVID and soon perhaps Merck's very effective new drug we will likely see deaths with COVID far lower in 2022 than in 2020 and 2021. My guess is the US could easily see more deaths from the flu in 2022 than with COVID. We shall see.

So while I am inclined to see those 750K+ deaths in US as tragic the tragedy of more deaths from drug overdose, suicide, lives and businesses destroyed via questionable public policies including the lockdowns that limited access to MDs and medical testing and treatments combined also killed a lot of Americans over the past 2 years.

Lets see your evidence for the number of drug overdoses and suicides caused specifically by " questionable public policies". Perhaps you have an RCT (lol)?

 

[Ethel2]

Umm.. first thats not really true.. WW2 deaths were likely much higher in the elderly.. civilians who could not evacuate when cities were bombed.. who were most at risk when medical supplies and food ran low because of war shortages.. when medical care was unavailable.. etc.
But the value you put on human life based age and fitness is noted.

Lets see your evidence for the number of drug overdoses and suicides caused specifically by " questionable public policies". Perhaps you have an RCT (lol)?

Here is his "evidence":

While nearly 350,000 Americans died from Covid-19, the number of suicides dropped by 5 percent, to 44,834 deaths in 2020 from 47,511 in 2019. It is the second year in a row that the number has fallen, after cresting in 2018.

U.S. Suicides Declined Over All in 2020 but May Have Risen Among People of Color (Published 2021)

Despite dire predictions, the number of suicides fell by 5 percent over all. Still, smaller studies suggested the trends were much worse among nonwhite Americans.

www.nytimes.com

 

[jaeger19]

Here is his "evidence":

While nearly 350,000 Americans died from Covid-19, the number of suicides dropped by 5 percent, to 44,834 deaths in 2020 from 47,511 in 2019. It is the second year in a row that the number has fallen, after cresting in 2018.

U.S. Suicides Declined Over All in 2020 but May Have Risen Among People of Color (Published 2021)

Despite dire predictions, the number of suicides fell by 5 percent over all. Still, smaller studies suggested the trends were much worse among nonwhite Americans.

www.nytimes.com

Yes.. but remember.. he uses an ALTERNATIVE.. reality to check.

 

[Ethel2]

Yes.. but remember.. he uses an ALTERNATIVE.. reality to check.

He will predictably claim that the number of suitcases is being covered up by “the government”.

 

[jaeger19]

He will predictably claim that the number of suitcases is being covered up by “the government”.

Yes.. but is there a randomized controlled trial??

 

[Ethel2]

Yes.. but is there a randomized controlled trial??

Hmmm…suitcases….typo to laugh at.
Perhaps he can provide a RCT as evidence

 

[RealityChecker]

Umm.. first thats not really true.. WW2 deaths were likely much higher in the elderly.. civilians who could not evacuate when cities were bombed.. who were most at risk when medical supplies and food ran low because of war shortages.. when medical care was unavailable.. etc.
But the value you put on human life based age and fitness is noted.

Pretty lame retort. You are responding to my post #847 which was in response to Fledermaus Post #843 and it is clear we were talking about deaths of Americans during WWII and deaths from COVID in USA. So you claim about the bombing of cities hardly applies does it?

Why do medical researchers concern themselves with QOLY if they believe all deaths are equally tragic? I am sure most American see the unexpected death of their otherwise healthy child than there seriously ill parent in a hospice or a nursing home. Anyone who sees the death of an older very ill person as the same as the death of an otherwise healthy child or young adult as equally tragic is the one who is out of touch with reality IMO.

Lets see your evidence for the number of drug overdoses and suicides caused specifically by " questionable public policies". Perhaps you have an RCT (lol)?

So depression, suicides, and drug overdose deaths have not increased during the pandemic more in states whose policies resulted in more loss of jobs and ability of people to socialize? I am not the one advocating onerous public policies with questionable health claims are saving lives. Comparing states with more restrictions like NJ, MA, and NY with states with less like FL and TX suggests that more restrictions did little or no good and resulted in far more job loss and likely family violence due to their adverse impact on people's lives.

 

[jaeger19]

Pretty lame retort. You are responding to my post #847 which was in response to Fledermaus Post #843 and it is clear we were talking about deaths of Americans during WWII and deaths from COVID in USA. So you claim about the bombing of cities hardly applies does it?

Umm no.. I pointed out correctly that deaths caused by WW2 probably were greatest in the elderly population because of their inability to evacuate and as there was stoppage of medical supplies, food shortages etc.

Why do medical researchers concern themselves with QOLY if they believe all deaths are equally tragic?

Um....quality of life is important as well. duh.

I am sure most American see the unexpected death of their otherwise healthy child than there seriously ill parent in a hospice or a nursing home

and you would be wrong. Do you think that if someone danced into their parents nursing homes.. and shot and killed their parents.. Americans would be like.. "hey..no big deal.. they were going to die anyway of something".
No.. americans would be up in arms about a person that started mass shooting elderly people.

. Anyone who sees the death of an older very ill person as the same as the death of an otherwise healthy child or young adult as equally tragic is the one who is out of touch with reality IMO.

Oh.. so if say a person ran into nursing homes and started knifing older ill patients.. you think that anyone who found that tragic.. is "out of touch with reality". ???

So depression, suicides, and drug overdose deaths have not increased during the pandemic more in states whose policies resulted in more loss of jobs and ability of eople to socialize?

Well.. suicides actually dropped from a high of 2018. as far as states that had lockdown policies.. they were also states that were particularly hit hard by the pandemic.. and the loss of jobs and problems with socialization had to do with the pandemic.. and not necessarily with the policies that reacted to them.
The data doesn't seem to support your theory: Take florida which you admit had less restriction.

According to provisional data released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, overdose deaths spiked in Florida amid the COVID-19 pandemic, surging at least 37% in 2020.

In all, roughly 7,579 people died of an overdose in Florida last year. Comparatively, fewer than 5,550 died in 2019 within the state.

Tell you what.. how about you provide the Randomized controlled trial done during the pandemic that supports your premise?

 

[RealityChecker]

Here is his "evidence":

While nearly 350,000 Americans died from Covid-19, the number of suicides dropped by 5 percent, to 44,834 deaths in 2020 from 47,511 in 2019. It is the second year in a row that the number has fallen, after cresting in 2018.

U.S. Suicides Declined Over All in 2020 but May Have Risen Among People of Color (Published 2021)

Despite dire predictions, the number of suicides fell by 5 percent over all. Still, smaller studies suggested the trends were much worse among nonwhite Americans.

www.nytimes.com

Well suicide rates have been trending higher over the past 2 decades. But determining a death of older men was a suicide may have been hindered by the reduced ability to talk to close relatives of the decedent. And suicides appear to by up in 2021.

"Emergency room visits for suspected suicide attempts among girls between the ages of 12 and 17 increased by 26% during summer 2020 and by 50% during winter 2021, compared with the same periods in 2019, researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found. However, ER trips related to suspected suicide attempts among boys that same age and young adults aged 18 to 25 remained stable during the pandemic." https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...ide-attempts-by-us-teen-girls-during-pandemic

I think it is too early to conclude suicides have declined during the pandemic. I did not read the NY Times article as it is behind a pay wall.

 

[RealityChecker]

Umm no.. I pointed out correctly that deaths caused by WW2 probably were greatest in the elderly population because of their inability to evacuate and as there was stoppage of medical supplies, food shortages etc.

Again anyone can read my post #847 that was in response to Fledermaus post #843 and see he and I were discussing deaths of Americans during WWII and the COVID pandemic. Your attempt to pretend otherwise shows you are either ignorant of what we were discussing or intentionally pretending I was discussing all war related deaths during WWII to COVID deaths. Fledermaus was claiming more Americans died with COVID than in WWII. So are you intentionally misrepresenting what my point was or are you really so dense you could not figure it out?

Um....quality of life is important as well. duh.

That was my point and you tried to pretend it was not.

and you would be wrong. Do you think that if someone danced into their parents nursing homes.. and shot and killed their parents.. Americans would be like.. "hey..no big deal.. they were going to die anyway of something".
No.. americans would be up in arms about a person that started mass shooting elderly people.

Again you are intentionally misrepresenting my points out of either malice or ignorance. Sad.

Oh.. so if say a person ran into nursing homes and started knifing older ill patients.. you think that anyone who found that tragic.. is "out of touch with reality". ???

More misconstruing of my points. Why? Perhaps you are projecting your feelings onto me? Clearly truth and justice seem out of sync with civil debate.

Well.. suicides actually dropped from a high of 2018. as far as states that had lockdown policies.. they were also states that were particularly hit hard by the pandemic.. and the loss of jobs and problems with socialization had to do with the pandemic.. and not necessarily with the policies that reacted to them.
The data doesn't seem to support your theory: Take florida which you admit had less restriction.

FL has had no more and probably fewer age adjusted deaths per capita with COVID than NY, NJ, or CA despite far less onerous mandates to lock down businesses, social gatherings, and mask wearing.

Tell you what.. how about you provide the Randomized controlled trial done during the pandemic that supports your premise?

You are the one supporting or claiming the benefits of such public policies. Is not the burden of proof on those promoting a health claim? Supporting authoritarian government mandates of unproven treatments and/or public policy "remedies" are tantamount to quackery IMO.

 

[Ethel2]

Well suicide rates have been trending higher over the past 2 decades. But determining a death of older men was a suicide may have been hindered by the reduced ability to talk to close relatives of the decedent. And suicides appear to by up in 2021.

"Emergency room visits for suspected suicide attempts among girls between the ages of 12 and 17 increased by 26% during summer 2020 and by 50% during winter 2021, compared with the same periods in 2019, researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found. However, ER trips related to suspected suicide attempts among boys that same age and young adults aged 18 to 25 remained stable during the pandemic." https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...ide-attempts-by-us-teen-girls-during-pandemic

I think it is too early to conclude suicides have declined during the pandemic. I did not read the NY Times article as it is behind a pay wall.

The article stated that suicide rates are down 5% in the years quoted (2019/20) and that it’s the second year in a row that they are down. Pretty hard to misinterpret that and it disproves your assertion that suicides have increased due to the pandemic, no matter what the trend was previously. I would contend that the upward trend prior to the pandemic is because we had a jackass as an excuse for a President.
Maybe you should check your facts before you post this sort of thing in the future to avoid further embarrassment.

 

[The Work Outing]

Well think about it? Don;t you think it takes resources to make a vaccine? Supplies etc. not to mention to administer it? The syringes.. the bottles. staff to get it..
come now. It all has a cost. Stop being silly.

And given your refusal to tell us whether your vaccinated.. lets assume you are not. So.. if you claim saving 60,000 people a year would cause you to get a vaccine...
Why not 600K plus a year?

I will ask again...

where is your link that shows that to produce another 160,000,000 flu shots a year will take away the industries ability to make enough of other vaccines?

You made the statement - now, please, prove it.

Or your statement is baseless and irrelevant.

 

[The Work Outing]

I understand why you want to ignore facts that are not in your favor.

No you don't.

Bye now.

 

[The Work Outing]

No, I won’t define a number. I sarcastically gave 500,000 earlier.
The point is that Covid is >15x deadlier than influenza AND we have several vaccines that are extremely safe and effective-AND vaccination is the fastest way to control the pandemic.
It is the covidiots who are holding normal people hostage. It’s time for us to fight back, and we are. The state and federal governments and businesses everywhere are creating unpleasant choices for the covidiots-get vaccinated or try to find work elsewhere. I wholeheartedly approve of the direction the country is headed vis a vis the pandemic.

First you give me a number.

Then I call you on it and you spin it by saying you were 'sarcastic'.

Even though there is NO WAY I could know that.

And now you will not give a number.

Obviously because you realize that to do so weakens your entire argument.

I am not playing, trolling/childish games with you.

Find someone else to play with.

It is obvious that you do whatever the government/MSM tells you to do.

And that your mind is closed on this issue

Bye now.