Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[iguanaman]

No. It doesn't.

Real life results show masks help reduce COVID transfer.

It is truly amazing that they even deny a medical device that has been in use for 100's of years. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that a 3 layer mask can stop most droplets in either direction. It must be because their fragile child-like egos cannot abide the look of a mask on their face. That is the only possible conclusion.

 

[iguanaman]

That study did not prove masks work. That requires a RCT.

Simple observation tell any logical person that a 3 layer mask stops most droplets in either direction. You can't see that? Why?Just admit that you are too self-centered and vain to wear a mask and stop claiming otherwise.

 

[Fledermaus]

It is truly amazing that they even deny a medical device that has been in use for 100's of years. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that a 3 layer mask can stop most droplets in either direction. It must be because their fragile egos cannot abide the look of a mask on their face. That is the only possible conclusion.

In my former career I lived in PPE for much of the day.

Helmet, hearing protection, eye protection, etc.

Other times in NBC gear.

All to protect me.

I can't imagine not wearing a simple cloth mask to protect others.

 

[Ethel2]

Simple observation tell any logical person that a 3 layer mask stops most droplets in either direction. You can't see that? Why?Just admit that you are too self-centered and vain to wear a mask and stop claiming otherwise.

If you wear a mask long enough the inside of it will become moist.
I suppose that the conspiracy theorists believe that moisture is divine intervention and not exhaled aerosols from the wearer that never got released into the air that others might breathe.

 

[Ethel2]

In my former career I lived in PPE for much of the day.

Helmet, hearing protection, eye protection, etc.

Other times in NBC gear.

All to protect me.

I can't imagine not wearing a simple cloth mask to protect others.

Covidiots couldn’t care less about anyone but themselves.

 

[jaeger19]

Except in a dire emergency speculation about some worse case scenario should not lead to onerous public policies that we know will in fact cause a lot of harm.

Except your opinion is not based on facts and evidence. Show evidence that masking will "cause a lot of harm". Show evidence that vaccination will "cause a lot of harm". Lets see it.
Now covid? Death... 600,000 dead in a year. Far more than the flu. Hospitalization to the point that hospitals have to do crisis levels of care..affecting those without covid.. Long covid suffers.. even evidence that asymptomatic people may experience lung damage.. and that could lead to cumulative damage with subsequent repeated infections. There is a plethora of evidence of the dangerousness of covid.
So in any risk benefit analysis.. the prevailing evidence is that the risk of covid.. is far greater than the risk of the vaccines and certainly of masks.. and thus.. the benefit of the vaccine far outweighs the risks of doing nothing.

True, but we have 4 human corona viruses and nearly everyone catches them likely several times each over their lifetime. While they do occasionally lead to serious illness and even death they do not appear to leave the vast majority of people with clinically significant harm

Exactly.. unlike Covid.. in which 600,000 or so died in a year in the US. And there was development of a more contagious variant that became predominant in the US.

. So for now I am okay with parents (along with guidance from their kids pediatricians) deciding whether or not to have their kids get the flu or COVID vaccinations.

True, but as I noted it may be because COVID and especially the delta strain are far more contagious that the reduction in travel and big increase in social distancing made it far harder for the flu than delta COVID to spread

If thats the case.. that means that Covid is more of a problem than the flu... and thus potentially more deadly as the more it can spread the more it can find an immunosuppressed person.

. You are looking backwards as a medical historian would. I am looking at the future because as Hillary Clinton once said during an investigation into what went wrong in the Benghazi terrorist attack in Libya: "What difference, at this point, does it make?" HRC

Actually I am looking at both. I see the past.. which is that covid has killed 600,000 people and so forth. AND there is evidence that there is a good possibility of long term health problems with earlier covid infections.

Well as they say, "those that do not learn from history are prone to repeat past errors." So I am good with investigating and setting the record straight about how we and other countries dealt with SARS-CoV2. Why? So hopefully we can do better in the future

If only you understood the evidence and were objective about it. But you aren;t setting the record straight. Early you made the claim

. Would you care to speculate about the number of deaths with the flu and with COVID in 2022 and 2023? As I've said here quite a bit lately I expect the flu to return in 2022 and for deaths with COVID to plummet to far less than what we have seen in 2020 and 2021. Do you disagree? If so for what reasons?

A lot depends on peoples behavior.....a lot depends on vaccination rates among adults and children. IF adults and children get vaccinated for covid at high rates.. and are compliant with boosters... covid goes away almost entirely.
Most likely what will happens is that there will be pockets of low vaccination.. so we will have continued outbreaks.. of covid. So some areas.. covid will be a major source of hospitalizations and death... in other areas it won;t be.
And prior unknown variant could also upset the mix.

 

[jaeger19]

Your first statement is a lie…here is proof that it is a lie….

Covid: Children's extremely low risk confirmed by study

The overall risk of death is around two in a million children, scientists looking at England's data estimate.

www.bbc.co.uk

Btw, you have no idea of the potential long term harm from these vaccinations to kids…they have already given a small number myocarditis. The true number of adverse reactions is being hidden by the corporate press…who happen to be owned by the same people as big Pharma.

Nope.. no lie.. you just don;t understand medicine.. or risk. You think the only risk is death.
And yes.. I have an idea of the potential long term harm from these vaccinations. Because I understand how the vaccines work.. while you do not.
Yes.. there is some potential for harm... and the most likely from the way the vaccines work.. would be a reaction that happened in the first 4 weeks after vaccination. Because after the first 24-48 hours.. the vaccine is gone from your system. So.. yes.. an initial reaction.. that then did damage lets say to the heart.. could then lead to a problem later in life. BUT.. we are not seeing damage in those first 4 weeks in any manner for concern.

UNLIKE the fact that we are seeing patients that are asymptomatic covid infections.. have long haul covid later.. .OR seeing that asymptomatic patients are having damage in their lungs on CT.

For the "true number of adverse reactions to be hidden"... it would have to mean that all of us medical providers are in on the big fraud.
So..why do you think medical providers are in on this? Why do you think we are seeing all these serious adverse reactions... but not reporting it?

Please explain in detail.

 

[jaeger19]

Simple. Because the flu has a much lower R0 than the SARS-CoV2 and especially the delta strain. Perhaps half of all children have now been infected with SARS-CoV2 and in 2020 and 2021 combined the flu has had a lot of trouble spreading. It would not surprise me if it was the syncytial virus as a co-infection with SARS-CoV2 that was the primary cause of many of the deaths with COVID in children this summer. But I am speculating.

This does not change the reality that for children SARS-CoV2 has an IFR significantly lower than than that of the flu. However, today with perhaps 150 to 200 million Americans already having survived COVID and another 200 million plus (almost all adults) Americans now with vaccine induced immunity it appears we may have final attained the dreaded "herd immunity". We shall see, as if I am right we likely will see far fewer deaths with COVID in 2022 and with the return of more travel and less social distancing we will likely see a resurgence of the flu in 2022. We shall see.

So again.. Covid is much more likely to cause death in children than the flu.

 

[RealityChecker]

So again.. Covid is much more likely to cause death in children than the flu.

I don't think you know that to be the case. Why? COVID was much more likely to cause death in children than the flu over the past two years. This year will soon be over and the playing field is now far more competitive so the flu may well be causing more deaths in children over the next two years.

Why? When COVID first showed up here in 2020, MDs knew how to treat the flu, but really had little idea about how to best treat COVID in kids. We know far more kids caught the Wuhan virus because it was new and spread easily because initially no one had acquired immunity (prior infection and/or vaccines). Today, perhaps 50% or more of kids have acquired immunity and soon we may see many more getting vaccinated and acquiring active immunity. Also the COVID vaccines seem to work better than flu vaccines, although they do appear to have more serious (but rare) side effects. Also MDs today probably have better treatment options for the Wuhan virus than the flu. So I suspect we may see more kids dying of the flu than COVID over the next year or two. Yes that is an educated guess but it could well turn into reality. You have great hindsight but seem to be unable to predict what 2022 and 2023 will be. Can we agree the flu will likely kill far more kids and the Wuhan virus far fewer than what we have seen in 2020 and 2021?

 

[RealityChecker]

In my former career I lived in PPE for much of the day.

Helmet, hearing protection, eye protection, etc.

Other times in NBC gear.

All to protect me.

I can't imagine not wearing a simple cloth mask to protect others.

Most people who are wearing flimsy face masks in public have been to believe they are effective for protecting themselves. Sadly, most of the face masks being worn by the public provide little or no protection. Mandating people wear mask but not informing them that some face masks are effective in protecting them and others provide little or no protection seem like important information that seems to be a closely guarded state secrete. Can you admit some face masks worn by the public are largely of completely ineffective for protecting them from COVID? Seems people ought not be misled by MDs, the CDC, and news media.

And rather than discuss the evidence showing flimsy cloth face masks, including paper surgical masks provide little or no protection to the wearer many here seem to want to talk about the possibility that even flimsy face masks might still act as a source control. Hum? Might they be concerned that they know much of what the public has been wearing in hopes of protecting themselves form COVID was based on lies and misleading propaganda. Is public policy based on lies good public policy? I think not. And while I do not doubt face masks may work somewhat better for source control than for the wearer the evidence is pretty weak.

So you wore PPE to protect yourself. But now wear PPE to protect others? How many people would chose to wear masks if they were told the truth? Do we mandate people do things to protect others but not themselves? That seems a bit too authoritarian to me.

 

[Ethel2]

Now we are getting somewhere! This is a great idea!

“
KHN)These days, workers who refuse to get vaccinated against covid-19 may face financial repercussions, from higher health insurance premiums to loss of their jobs. Now, the financial fallout might follow workers beyond the grave. If they die of covid and weren't vaccinated, their families may not get death benefits they would otherwise have received.
New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority no longer pays a $500,000 death benefit to the families of subway, bus and commuter rail workers who die of covid if the workers were unvaccinated at the time of death.”

 

[RealityChecker]

Now we are getting somewhere! This is a great idea!

“
KHN)These days, workers who refuse to get vaccinated against covid-19 may face financial repercussions, from higher health insurance premiums to loss of their jobs. Now, the financial fallout might follow workers beyond the grave. If they die of covid and weren't vaccinated, their families may not get death benefits they would otherwise have received.
New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority no longer pays a $500,000 death benefit to the families of subway, bus and commuter rail workers who die of covid if the workers were unvaccinated at the time of death.”

What if they die of the flu and are unvaccinated? What if they die of lung cancer and were smokers?

 

[RealityChecker]

So again.. Covid is much more likely to cause death in children than the flu.

There was a time when measles was more likely to kill kids than the flu, but not today. COVID was more likely to kill kids than the flu in 2020 and 2021 no doubt. Perhaps not in 2022 or 2023. We shall see. Past performance does not equate to future performance.

Up until the 1940s for years the #1 cancer killer was stomach CA. But it declined markedly and lung CA increased dramatically. Again what was true does not necessarily predict the future.

 

[Ethel2]

What if they die of the flu and are unvaccinated? What if they die of lung cancer and were smokers?

The flu is nothing like Covid
And there is no easily obtainable safe effective vaccine for smoking.
If there was smoking would be in the same category IMO. Furthermore, if you smoke away from others you are no danger to them, unlike Covid.
Any other questions?

 

[Fledermaus]

Most people who are wearing flimsy face masks in public have been to believe they are effective for protecting themselves. Sadly, most of the face masks being worn by the public provide little or no protection. Mandating people wear mask but not informing them that some face masks are effective in protecting them and others provide little or no protection seem like important information that seems to be a closely guarded state secrete. Can you admit some face masks worn by the public are largely of completely ineffective for protecting them from COVID? Seems people ought not be misled by MDs, the CDC, and news media.

And rather than discuss the evidence showing flimsy cloth face masks, including paper surgical masks provide little or no protection to the wearer many here seem to want to talk about the possibility that even flimsy face masks might still act as a source control. Hum? Might they be concerned that they know much of what the public has been wearing in hopes of protecting themselves form COVID was based on lies and misleading propaganda. Is public policy based on lies good public policy? I think not. And while I do not doubt face masks may work somewhat better for source control than for the wearer the evidence is pretty weak.

So you wore PPE to protect yourself. But now wear PPE to protect others? How many people would chose to wear masks if they were told the truth? Do we mandate people do things to protect others but not themselves? That seems a bit too authoritarian to me.

Blah blah flimsy blah blah ...

You continue to stupid in regards to mask mandates.

When you stop the stupid we can discuss further ...

Hint. The masks mandates aren't to protect the wearer

 

[Fledermaus]

I don't think you know that to be the case. Why? COVID was much more likely to cause death in children than the flu over the past two years. This year will soon be over and the playing field is now far more competitive so the flu may well be causing more deaths in children over the next two years.

Why? When COVID first showed up here in 2020, MDs knew how to treat the flu, but really had little idea about how to best treat COVID in kids. We know far more kids caught the Wuhan virus because it was new and spread easily because initially no one had acquired immunity (prior infection and/or vaccines). Today, perhaps 50% or more of kids have acquired immunity and soon we may see many more getting vaccinated and acquiring active immunity. Also the COVID vaccines seem to work better than flu vaccines, although they do appear to have more serious (but rare) side effects. Also MDs today probably have better treatment options for the Wuhan virus than the flu. So I suspect we may see more kids dying of the flu than COVID over the next year or two. Yes that is an educated guess but it could well turn into reality. You have great hindsight but seem to be unable to predict what 2022 and 2023 will be. Can we agree the flu will likely kill far more kids and the Wuhan virus far fewer than what we have seen in 2020 and 2021?

500+ children dead due to COVID

737,000+ Total due to COVID

HOW MANY DEAD FROM THE FLU IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD?

 

[snakestretcher]

In the U.K. medical advice was that the vaccines are a higher risk to kids than the virus…also many parents rightly think there could be long term health issues from these vaccines…better ere on the side a safety being that the risks of Covid are so low.

The hope was that these vaccines would stop , or at least drastically reduce infection, that turned out to be a completely misplaced hope…so why should we trust the same people when they say these vaccines are safe?

Who said vaccines are a higher risk to children than the virus? I suspect you're lying about this alleged 'advice'.

Covid: Why are 12-15s now being double-jabbed?

All children aged 12 to 15 are being offered two doses of Covid vaccine.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[code1211]

No one need read beyond "lawless Biden administration".

Polio.



Hyperbole and ad hominem are your sole tools.

Polio was not mandated from the Federal level.

There are 50 State Mandates that concern polio.

Facts are neither hyperbole or ad hominem although there are some who feel that they are. They don't read beyond them.

 

[code1211]

Incorrect

The poster said that even though something was illegal and still is illegal that it is now legal because she has no idea what the law says.

You apparently agree.

 

[snakestretcher]

What if they die of the flu and are unvaccinated? What if they die of lung cancer and were smokers?

Lung cancer isn't contagious. As for your other comment, you can say 'what if' about anything you like, but it doesn't make for a persuasive argument.

 

[code1211]

And you should check the facts before you make erroneous statements.
How embarrassing it must be….

Being caught providing actual facts by a poster unaware of them is not embarrassing in any way.

 

[snakestretcher]

Polio was not mandated from the Federal level.

There are 50 State Mandates that concern polio.

Facts are neither hyperbole or ad hominem although there are some who feel that they are. They don't read beyond them.

No, there were no mandates for Smallpox vaccines either, but 80% of the world's population was bright enough to understand that it worked and Smallpox has been eradicated as a result of a vigorous vaccination campaign. It's a shame that dumb as a box of rocks conservatives appear to find whining about 'freedom', 'tyranny' and some 'right' they think is being abused-although they can never articulate what that 'right' might be, to be more important than their health. The only way the message will sink in is usually too late for them, as so many antis have discovered to their cost.

 

[code1211]

Whether you call it a "mandate" or a "condition of employment" is not relevant to the discussion. If you want to be a Marine you have to take certain vaccinations. Now if you want to be a State Department IT guy you now also have to take certain vaccinations.

The Biden Administration is trying to do an illegal thing and is using a back door deception to try to accomplish this.

OAHA is using an old regulation that was employed one time and was overturned by the courts on that attempt.

As the deadlines approach, the "mandate" is changing to conform better to the objections that are rising.

There have a been a few court cases that have stopped or delayed the implementation of the mandate.

A condition of employment for those who CHOOSE to be employed is not a mandate for anyone who draws breath. Words mean things.

 

[Big Eye]

I'm busy at work ...but someone explain why double vaxxed people in the UK are more likely to be infected with Covid than the unvaxxed...

 

[Fledermaus]

Polio was not mandated from the Federal level.

There are 50 State Mandates that concern polio.

Facts are neither hyperbole or ad hominem although there are some who feel that they are. They don't read beyond them.

I stand corrected.

There are indeed 50 state mandates for polio

We were smarter then about vaccines.