Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement

ultmd · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

Happy to reply, and I will look forward to further discourse with you.

But first...you really should stop whining about "character attacks". That's what weak-minded right-wingers do. Truth is, you're no liberal. Based upon your previous posts, you define yourself as a CLASSICAL liberal, which is the ideological foundation upon which BOTH liberalism and conservatism in America are based. So, at best...at best...you're being coy by insisting that you are "a liberal'. Everyone can see (and your posting history confirms) that you are a conservative. That's all fine and good, but don't play that game, and then whine when people point it out to you. That's just weak sauce, my friend.

Now, to your OP.

So, you're "tired of racial obsession", huh? Please, define that further, for me? I ask that, because most liberals are tired a ACTUAL RACISM, and have no use for ambiguous terms like "racial obsession". That's an empty term. Are you tired of Racism, firefly, or are you just tired of black people protesting against racism? Please, be as candid and specific as possible in your reply.

Next....what's so "divisive" about protesting against Racism? Who's being "divided"? Think about that.

Next, let's be clear and honest with one another, ok? When you say you only see people as people...you are (once again...as in the "racial obsession" remarks) dodging the issue. And the issue is this: Everyone sees race. EVERYONE see race. If you are an American, and you claim that you don't notice race...you're a liar. Noticing race does NOT mean one is a racist. But pretending to not see race is very often a sign of someone who has issues with race. So if you are sincere, I suggest you stop using that argument around others; because people who understand race and racism can see right through it.

Next....#BLM. Do you honestly believe that the protests are about "insignificant differences" and that they "demonize" all white people? Have you not been paying attention? If so, what news sources are you relying upon for this conclusion? I assume you are a white person...and I assume you are not American (as "colour", as opposed to "color" is decidedly British). If my assumptions are incorrect, please let me know. I am an African-American man, and I suspect that you and I may come to these discussions with very different sets of lived, learned experiences.
So, more context is helpful in these types of discussions.

Lastly, what EXACTLY do you believe "the far left activists" are trying to achieve (and how)? Again, your remarks seem intentionally vague and shallow. Please, elaborate so that we can debate them on their merits (or lack thereof).

Master Debator · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
Because people are people, we have way, way, way more in common than we different. What is the use in hyper-focusing on differences? Division leads to resentment of the 'other', it's not something I think is useful.

Because people are people isn't an answer. At least not a coherent one so ill ask again. What common ground can be had between people who believe black lives matter and people who do not? :shrug:

Cardinal · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

I call shenanigans.

digitusmedius · Aug 11, 2020

Xilnik said:
I have been told that I am hypocritical for supporting protests during a pandemic even though I have said that people who violate health orders should be fined or subpoenaed the following day and then forced to quarantine for several weeks between testing.

What you should have told those lying ****heads is that demonstrators wore masks in much higher numbers in the open than Dirtbag's rally attendees did inside in Tulsa (although there was some unintended social distancing much to the embarrassment of Dirtbag). There's also a line of thinking the big protest marches kept a lot of people home and actually might have helped slow the spread in those cities with big BLM marches:
Black Lives Matter protests may have slowed overall spread of coronavirus in Denver and other cities, new study finds – The Colorado Sun

I am NOT suggesting that this was scientifically established but the point is that there's zero, none, no evidence whatsoever that BLM protests plays any part in Covid-19 spread.

Master Debator · Aug 11, 2020

Aurora said:
So much for diversity. Diversity is everything except whites. We knew all along that the cult of diversity is anti white. You just admitted it. We see how black run and black dominated cities are in decline and ruin.

What the **** are you talking about? :blink:

More than half the BLM protesters are white. The only people lacking in diversity are white wingers, hence the monkier.

digitusmedius · Aug 11, 2020

Master Debator said:
Because people are people isn't an answer. At least not a coherent one so ill ask again. What common ground can be had between people who believe black lives matter and people who do not? :shrug:

THAT's an excellent question. I eagerly await his response.

Xilnik · Aug 11, 2020

digitusmedius said:
What you should have told those lying ****heads is that demonstrators wore masks in much higher numbers in the open than Dirtbag's rally attendees did inside in Tulsa (although there was some social distancing much to the embarrassment of Dirtbag). There's also a line of thinking the big protest marches kept a lot of people home and actually might have helped slow the spread in those cities with big BLM marches:
Black Lives Matter protests may have slowed overall spread of coronavirus in Denver and other cities, new study finds – The Colorado Sun

I am NOT suggesting that this was scientifically established but the point is that there's zero, none, no evidence whatsoever that BLM protests plays any part in Covid-19 spread.

Much of your post is true, but there were still a lot of protesters who violated state health orders with their actions, and there should not be exceptions to those orders if we want to properly mitigate transmission. It is not wise to gather in large groups during a pandemic for any reason, especially while ignoring mandates that protect the general public. While many wore masks, there were enough who did not, and social distancing was hit or miss depending on portions of the overall group.

digitusmedius · Aug 11, 2020

ultmd said:
Happy to reply, and I will look forward to further discourse with you.

But first...you really should stop whining about "character attacks". That's what weak-minded right-wingers do. Truth is, you're no liberal. Based upon your previous posts, you define yourself as a CLASSICAL liberal, which is the ideological foundation upon which BOTH liberalism and conservatism in America are based. So, at best...at best...you're being coy by insisting that you are "a liberal'. Everyone can see (and your posting history confirms) that you are a conservative. That's all fine and good, but don't play that game, and then whine when people point it out to you. That's just weak sauce, my friend.

Now, to your OP.

So, you're "tired of racial obsession", huh? Please, define that further, for me? I ask that, because most liberals are tired a ACTUAL RACISM, and have no use for ambiguous terms like "racial obsession". That's an empty term. Are you tired of Racism, firefly, or are you just tired of black people protesting against racism? Please, be as candid and specific as possible in your reply.

Next....what's so "divisive" about protesting against Racism? Who's being "divided"? Think about that.

Next, let's be clear and honest with one another, ok? When you say you only see people as people...you are (once again...as in the "racial obsession" remarks) dodging the issue. And the issue is this: Everyone sees race. EVERYONE see race. If you are an American, and you claim that you don't notice race...you're a liar. Noticing race does NOT mean one is a racist. But pretending to not see race is very often a sign of someone who has issues with race. So if you are sincere, I suggest you stop using that argument around others; because people who understand race and racism can see right through it.

Next....#BLM. Do you honestly believe that the protests are about "insignificant differences" and that they "demonize" all white people? Have you not been paying attention? If so, what news sources are you relying upon for this conclusion? I assume you are a white person...and I assume you are not American (as "colour", as opposed to "color" is decidedly British). If my assumptions are incorrect, please let me know. I am an African-American man, and I suspect that you and I may come to these discussions with very different sets of lived, learned experiences.
So, more context is helpful in these types of discussions.

Lastly, what EXACTLY do you believe "the far left activists" are trying to achieve (and how)? Again, your remarks seem intentionally vague and shallow. Please, elaborate so that we can debate them on their merits (or lack thereof).

digitusmedius · Aug 11, 2020

Xilnik said:
Much of your post is true, but there were still a lot of protesters who violated state health orders with their actions, and there should not be exceptions to those orders if we want to properly mitigate transmission. It is not wise to gather in large groups during a pandemic for any reason, especially while ignoring mandates that protect the general public. While many wore masks, there were enough who did not, and social distancing was hit or miss depending on portions of the overall group.

This falls into the "do as I say, not as I do" category. The rightwing or even fence-sitters have no ground to stand on about adhering to guidelines for preventing covid spread. The first group defiantly rejects those measures, thus the current rampant spread and death in states like FL, AL, TX , GA, MS...etc--i.e., most governed by dedicated trumper governors and the second group passively submits to that rejection. These are the places who led the charge to open early and have now set the entire country back to nearly the beginning as those states make it easier for further and bigger virus spread than before.

Lfl · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

Just goes to show people that you can be liberal, or claim to be so and still be a racist.

fireflygmf · Aug 11, 2020

Craig234 said:
Your goal of wanting people to just be people, and race not to be a big issue, isn't wrong. But you appear to be horribly ignorant and oblivious to the situation of many people, especially black people, and what's needed to get from here to there. It's like your wife was raped, and you say, 'darling, I am against you being raped, but I'm also against having to be annoyed hearing about it. So, I'm against you telling me you were raped.'

There are plenty of legitimate 'concerns' to have about a movement like BLM. It is a popular movement borne of opposing injustice; as a popular movement, there's no guarantee it will always do the right thing. It's not only fine to criticize it if it doesn't, it's right to. But your 'I'm against BLM because they talk too much about race' is quite misguided. Opposing justice because it annoys you isn't much better than opposing it because you support injustice.

What you're saying can be fine on a more personal level. For example, corporations tend to 'treat people as people' and mostly ignore race. If there is a black person in a meeting, the meeting doesn't say "this is Barack. As a black person, he cares a lot about racial justice for black people. But treat him like a person." And so on. They just do. You don't have to talk about race all the time with black friends.

But we are a society, with a history, with issues, and some of those are systemic, and as a society, we need to care about that if we don't want every group less than half the country subject to abuses, because the majority say 'hey, it doesn't affect me, I don't care'. Institutions - police, courts, libraries, schools, politicians, even private businesses - are legitimately obligated to not behave too badly, and be constrained by society as needed.

The alternative, as you say - go look at the old pictures of Bull Connor using dogs and firehoses on black children, and say, 'not my problem, don't care, the government should not care.' That's the society you make with that approach. If not that exact one - times have changed - one with more George Floyds or other problems. You should celebrate BLM as our democracy actually functioning for once, and it's ok to condemn the 1% who use the protests for crime sprees.

This is about the best rebuttal I've come across. Let me think on this one.

Xilnik · Aug 11, 2020

digitusmedius said:
This falls into the "do as I say, not as I do" category. The rightwing or even fence-sitters have no ground to stand on about adhering to guidelines for preventing covid spread. The first group defiantly rejects those measures, thus the current rampant spread and death in states like FL, AL, TX , GA, MS...etc--i.e., most governed by dedicated trumper governors and the second group passively submits to that rejection. These are the places who led the charge to open early and have now set the entire country back to nearly the beginning as those states make it easier for further and bigger virus spread than before.

I would argue both sides are guilty of "do as I say, not as I do," but I would agree that it is more common on the right. I say that because there seem to be more on the right who use the left's hypocrisy to justify them not wearing masks and attending social gatherings without social distancing.

Aurora · Aug 11, 2020

Master Debator said:
What the **** are you talking about? :blink:

More than half the BLM protesters are white. The only people lacking in diversity are white wingers, hence the monkier.

Maybe what we need is to do excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America. your words.

Hypothetical · Aug 11, 2020

Xilnik said:
I consider it an attack on my character to claim I did things that I did not with insults thrown in to boot. As an example:

ok well you can point to a single instance of when someone is upset if you want to , but I see the racist calling thing at least 10 or more times a week on here.

Moderate Right · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

It's obvious for all to see as long as your eyes are open. You don't fight racial inequality by promoting racial inequality. The root causes of racial inequality are due to social inequalities and have nothing to do with the police. And, as long as we are sending the message that it is OK to commit crimes and be a criminal and that resisting arrest or attacking the police are OK but if the police overreact and you get killed in the process then we will blame everything on the police, the root causes will never be addressed. That mentality is never going to fix the root problem.

And, the left need to be honest that these incidents and racism have been getting better over the years (even under Trump) rather than promote the lie that things are getting worse, again, the root causes of the problem never get addressed. There are a lot of positive things we can do to help the problem get even better but if we scapegoat the police and claim that there is ever worsening systemic racism when, in fact, it has been decreasing, then the problem will never be solved. Let's work on the root causes instead of fomenting hate. The lefty MSM are fomenting these untruths to purposely stir the pot for ratings and their SJW agenda, taking our eyes off the ball of how to really work on the real root causes of the problem.

fireflygmf · Aug 11, 2020

ultmd said:
Happy to reply, and I will look forward to further discourse with you.

But first...you really should stop whining about "character attacks". That's what weak-minded right-wingers do. Truth is, you're no liberal. Based upon your previous posts, you define yourself as a CLASSICAL liberal, which is the ideological foundation upon which BOTH liberalism and conservatism in America are based. So, at best...at best...you're being coy by insisting that you are "a liberal'. Everyone can see (and your posting history confirms) that you are a conservative. That's all fine and good, but don't play that game, and then whine when people point it out to you. That's just weak sauce, my friend.

The closest thing I can find find to your claim that I "whined" about character attacks is this:
"I'd invite you to read my post history, I'm liberal on most positions. Also, trying to discredit my character doesn't invalidate my argument. I'd be interested in actual rebuttals to my point."
So... where is this whining?

ultmd said:
Now, to your OP.

So, you're "tired of racial obsession", huh? Please, define that further, for me? I ask that, because most liberals are tired a ACTUAL RACISM, and have no use for ambiguous terms like "racial obsession". That's an empty term. Are you tired of Racism, firefly, or are you just tired of black people protesting against racism? Please, be as candid and specific as possible in your reply.

To me, the need to constantly insert racial arguments into discussions where there is none, is racial obsession. I believe this to be an aspect of ACTUAL RACISM (emphasis yours), that is to say, the belief that one's race is an important qualifier when considering that person's value, importance, *insert qualifier here*, is misguided at best, and will lead to further conflict and division along those lines. That's my fear and that's why I take the position.

ultmd said:
Next....what's so "divisive" about protesting against Racism? Who's being "divided"? Think about that.

I don't think anything is divisive about protesting against racism. BLM has devolved into something much different.

ultmd said:
Next, let's be clear and honest with one another, ok? When you say you only see people as people...you are (once again...as in the "racial obsession" remarks) dodging the issue. And the issue is this: Everyone sees race. EVERYONE see race. If you are an American, and you claim that you don't notice race...you're a liar. Noticing race does NOT mean one is a racist. But pretending to not see race is very often a sign of someone who has issues with race. So if you are sincere, I suggest you stop using that argument around others; because people who understand race and racism can see right through it.

I agree that everyone sees race, I don't say I don't notice a person's colour. I'm saying it isn't an important aspect of a person that I would look up to, befriend, or make any other judgement upon.

ultmd said:
Next....#BLM. Do you honestly believe that the protests are about "insignificant differences" and that they "demonize" all white people? Have you not been paying attention? If so, what news sources are you relying upon for this conclusion? I assume you are a white person...and I assume you are not American (as "colour", as opposed to "color" is decidedly British). If my assumptions are incorrect, please let me know. I am an African-American man, and I suspect that you and I may come to these discussions with very different sets of lived, learned experiences.
So, more context is helpful in these types of discussions.

Lastly, what EXACTLY do you believe "the far left activists" are trying to achieve (and how)? Again, your remarks seem intentionally vague and shallow. Please, elaborate so that we can debate them on their merits (or lack thereof).

I find this disturbing. You seek to know my racial identity before coming to further conclusions about me, and that is very revealing my friend.

I will answer for you however: I'm Canadian, as revealed in my profile. My ancestry.ca DNA reveals mostly Southern Italy, Turkey, Spain, Irish, in that order. I have quite dark skin, you would probably consider me white, my whiter friends always ask why I'm so dark. I'd consider myself mixed to a degree, to a first generation immigrant family. Let my racial identity now inform your opinion of me.

Master Debator · Aug 11, 2020

Aurora said:
Maybe what we need is to do excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America. your words.

Which I stand by. Not all white Americans subscribe to the deplorable culture of white wingism.

Slartibartfast · Aug 11, 2020

americanwoman said:
I could care less about anyone else's "movement" or their interpretation of anything. Black lives matter to me - period.

Especially after one's morning coffee

(yes, I still possess a 12 year old's humor)

Aurora · Aug 11, 2020

Master Debator said:
Which I stand by. Not all Americans subscribe to the deplorable culture of white wingism.

Not everyone subscribes to yours, does it need to be excised?

fireflygmf · Aug 11, 2020

Master Debator said:
"Maybe what we need is to do excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America"

Which I stand by. Not all white Americans subscribe to the deplorable culture of white wingism.

This speaks to my point very well. I don't espouse many right wing views, but I'd never post any like "excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America". This is very divisive, and serves to confirm my fears about where we are heading.

Master Debator · Aug 11, 2020

Aurora said:
Not everyone subscribes to yours, does it need to be excised?

That's a matter of opinion no? The question is if you think so and if your capable. I certainly see the eradicating and/or subjugation pf white wing culture not only attainable, but at this point, probable. :shrug:

Master Debator · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
This speaks to my point very well. I don't espouse many right wing views, but I'd never post any like "excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America". This is very divisive, and serves to confirm my fears about where we are heading.

Again, you can't seem to find an answer to my previous question. Where is the common ground to be had between those who believe black lives matter and those who do not?

maxparrish · Aug 11, 2020

This generation doesn't have tolerance for a bad attitude - hence the nation is thrown into arson, riots, beatings, and looting of the cities?

Excuse us?

fireflygmf · Aug 11, 2020

Master Debator said:
Again, you can't seem to find an answer to my previous question. Where is the common ground to be had between those who believe black lives matter and those who do not?

Not believing that black lives matter isn't the same as not supporting the BLM movement. I believe that black lives matter. I don't support BLM tactics, either.

To directly answer your question, if there is anyone here that actually thinks and would support the idea that black lives don't actually matter, I'd be extremely shocked. Common ground could only be had by pressing the reset button and realizing that we are far more the same than we are different. That would be the only conceivable starting point in my mind.

Robertinfremont · Aug 11, 2020

fireflygmf said:
I'd invite you to read my post history, I'm liberal on most positions. Also, trying to discredit my character doesn't invalidate my argument. I'd be interested in actual rebuttals to my point.

You are a Canadian liberal. Democrats here are not liberal at all, they are authoritarians. And if you think Authoritarian, think of dictators.

They dictate life on the planet. They dictate climate. The American democrat has a long tradition of dictatating our laws here.

Canada seems to me to be far more laid back.

Notice you got attacked by Democrats. They refuse to tolerate you.

I agree with your thesis entirely.

BLM needs to address the problem of Democrats of the USA.

Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement

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Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement

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