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Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement

What exactly is wrong with division? What's to unite between people who think BLM and people who don't? Maybe what we need is to do excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America.

Because people are people, we have way, way, way more in common than we different. What is the use in hyper-focusing on differences? Division leads to resentment of the 'other', it's not something I think is useful.
 
I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.



“Some of us” that see each other as people is right. Some of us.

That we’re basically the same is hard to understand, as you say, is because we see each other as different from ourselves, because we are. We naturally see/notice/categorize people, as James Baldwin said, based on race, sex and age.

Perhaps an exception here or there, but no "alternative" thinking outcomes I can think of that aren’t affected by skin color.

Just like BLM, Obama was destructive and divisive. For the one reason that, even though he was as much white, he was black. As I said, affected by skin color.
 
I'm tired of living in a racist society. Does that count?



Uh... Not sure how to tell you this, but you're completely missing the point of the BLM protests.

They aren't asking for special treatment. They aren't saying "black lives matter more than anyone else's." They're trying to stop police brutality and the use of state force against blacks, which results in killing black people on the regular, often without any consequences for the officers. Their point is that society doesn't act like black lives matter.

Demanding justice is not asking for special favors.



Because society doesn't treat everyone the same. Structural racism results in damaging discrimination against minorities.

I mean, really. We live in a time when even the KKK doesn't want to admit that they are racist. It is only in the most obscure and anonymous corners of the Internet where people openly admit their racism. Merely saying "I'm not a racist" while discriminating against black people does not magically exculpate you from your racism.

By the way, Martin Luther King Jr was reviled by most whites when he was alive, primarily because he was advocating the same kinds of things as BLM is today. He did not approve of political violence, but it is highly likely he would have agreed with the goals of BLM -- as he said, "We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality."

So it kind of sounds like you aren't really up to speed on what BLM is demanding. Perhaps you should educate yourself on that point before saying you disagree, no...?

But also I agree with the stated goals of BLM, I disagree with the tactics used. Nobody agrees that black lives don't matter.
 
Because people are people, we have way, way, way more in common than we different. What is the use in hyper-focusing on differences? Division leads to resentment of the 'other', it's not something I think is useful.

I disagree. I think all people are different to varying degrees. People are defined by their experiences, their cultures, and their beliefs among many other variables. It is more important to accept, embrace, and celebrate those differences to truly appreciate what other people have to offer. The differences should not be ignored but instead compounded toward educating others and helping our nation grow in its diversity. That is a large part of what our country was founded on and why we have had so much success prior to recent events.
 
Well, that's stupid race-baiting swill. Everyone knows that BLM just means "black lives matter just as much as anyone else's."


Note: didn't you have your lean as liberal just a moment ago?

How is seeing people as people race-baiting? And can you decipher your note for me? I can't tell what you are asking me.
 
I'd invite you to read my post history, I'm liberal on most positions. Also, trying to discredit my character doesn't invalidate my argument. I'd be interested in actual rebuttals to my point.

see this is what frustrates us on the right. this tactic is overused by quite a few leftist types.

if some of them cannot argue a point they go straight to trying to demean your character.
 
I tend to just ignore and stay away from the topic of BLM and it's concerns. But I will make this once short exception.

Until everyone can sit at the table and honestly lay out the facts and statistics that concern everyone sitting at that table, I will not be joining the discussion.

The 500 pound gorilla sitting in the room, that we are not allowed to discuss, are the reasons many white folks still have reservations towards the African American community.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
see this is what frustrates us on the right. this tactic is overused by quite a few leftist types.

if some of them cannot argue a point they go straight to trying to demean your character.

That is hardly a "leftist types" privilege. I see it plenty, and I would say fairly equally, from people on the right too.
 
I disagree. I think all people are different to varying degrees. People are defined by their experiences, their cultures, and their beliefs among many other variables. It is more important to accept, embrace, and celebrate those differences to truly appreciate what other people have to offer. The differences should not be ignored but instead compounded toward educating others and helping our nation grow in its diversity. That is a large part of what our country was founded on and why we have had so much success prior to recent events.

Okay, yes, I accept this. I don't want to us to be some generic monoculture, and we are different and of course unique. I guess I should say that when valued as a person, we should all be seen as equal, regardless of our ethnic or cultural roots.
 
I tend to just ignore and stay away from the topic of BLM and it's concerns. But I will make this once short exception.

Until everyone can sit at the table and honestly lay out the facts and statistics that concern everyone sitting at that table, I will not be joining the discussion.

The 500 pound gorilla sitting in the room, that we are not allowed to discuss, are the reasons many white folks still have reservations towards the African American community.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Can you name this 500 pound gorilla, so I have a sense of what you are getting at? I'm pretty open to discussion.
 
Because people are people, we have way, way, way more in common than we different. What is the use in hyper-focusing on differences? Division leads to resentment of the 'other', it's not something I think is useful.

it is definitely not useful. that causes much more division than who the president is. that is why you have to question the actual motives of people who engage in such hyper focusing.
 
Give it up. We see your type every five minutes on this site. Here's the rebuttal: BLM is a non-violent movement. The violence has been inflicted on it and other elements: some from rightwing and/or anarchist agitators who come to the peaceful protests and marches and many instances of the police deliberately provoking it*. And it only takes a couple of them to do it. Any true liberal would know these facts.

How US police used military tactics to turn peaceful protests violent | WIRED UK

Nonsense, when you loot a store for booty, that's pure criminal opportunists . They need and use the cover of your so called peaceful protests. Much of the other actions are pure rage carried out by vandalism and arson. BLM is drowning in in societal misfits, radicals, criminals. Liberation. Stupid people bow down to them.
 
That is hardly a "leftist types" privilege. I see it plenty, and I would say fairly equally, from people on the right too.

i don;t see as many rightists engaging in that kind of demeaning nonsense at all. I see criticism of ideas, but not "hey you racist" or "wow well you just outed yourself".
 
Ignoring the problems is what has divided us.

Can you reason this claim to me... as in, what was your thinking and how did you arrive at this conclusion. I can be convinced to alter my view if there is a solid argument here, and if this is true, this would give some credence to the movement.
 
i don;t see as many rightists engaging in that kind of demeaning nonsense at all. I see criticism of ideas, but not "hey you racist" or "wow well you just outed yourself".

I get called "you all" a lot by people on the right for things I never did and often things I actually disagree with. I also have been asked several times why I support the riots, looting, violence, police attacks, etc. despite posting several times that I am against unlawful assembly. I have been told that I am hypocritical for supporting protests during a pandemic even though I have said that people who violate health orders should be fined or subpoenaed the following day and then forced to quarantine for several weeks between testing.
 
What exactly is wrong with division? What's to unite between people who think BLM and people who don't? Maybe what we need is to do excise the gangrene that is white wing culture from the rest of America.

So much for diversity. Diversity is everything except whites. We knew all along that the cult of diversity is anti white. You just admitted it. We see how black run and black dominated cities are in decline and ruin.
 
You mean the constant meme from the rightwing falsely charging BLM with being a violent organization?

We just have to observe the results of BLM. Destruction everywhere .
 
That is hardly a "leftist types" privilege. I see it plenty, and I would say fairly equally, from people on the right too.

I have to disagree here. I cannot abide Trump, I can't stand virus deniers (more often conservative), I abhor the idea of fend-for-yourself no healthcare for the poor mentality etc... yet I get very little abuse from the righties around here, I have to admit. They seem more willing, on the whole, to be less abusive and more open to honest debate. I can think of a few notable exceptions though.
 
Well, that's stupid race-baiting swill. Everyone knows that BLM just means "black lives matter just as much as anyone else's."


Note: didn't you have your lean as liberal just a moment ago?

A White Lives Matter movement needs to be established. As well as Hispanic, Asian. Whites have also been victims of police abuses.
 
I get called "you all" a lot by people on the right for things I never did and often things I actually disagree with. I also have been asked several times why I support the riots, looting, violence, police attacks, etc. despite posting several times that I am against unlawful assembly. I have been told that I am hypocritical for supporting protests during a pandemic even though I have said that people who violate health orders should be fined or subpoenaed the following day and then forced to quarantine for several weeks between testing.

well even so I do not think that is to the level of being called a racist for offering an opinion. note taht those are ALL debates against your ideas, NOT blatant demeaning of your character.

"you all" probably means collective "leftists". we and I admit I , do have a tendency to divide us by political leaning, yes.

saying leftists is much easier than saying "all leftists who prescribe to this and or that belief" every time. I almost never mean it to be stated as ALL leftists.
 
I have to disagree here. I cannot abide Trump, I can't stand virus deniers (more often conservative), I abhor the idea of fend-for-yourself no healthcare for the poor mentality etc... yet I get very little abuse from the righties around here, I have to admit. They seem more willing, on the whole, to be less abusive and more open to honest debate. I can think of a few notable exceptions though.

All you've done in that statement is indicate that you're not a trumpbot. That's the lowest possible bar to clear. But, admitting that trumpbots like your work backs everything else I've/we've said about you. You're known by the company you keep and they're bad in the extreme.
 
well even so I do not think that is to the level of being called a racist for offering an opinion. note taht those are ALL debates against your ideas, NOT blatant demeaning of your character.

"you all" probably means collective "leftists". we and I admit I , do have a tendency to divide us by political leaning, yes.

I consider it an attack on my character to claim I did things that I did not with insults thrown in to boot. As an example:

You sat back and cheered on a collection of violent ****wits that were clearly NOT going to be deescalated and that in fact stepped up their attacks over 50+ days, emboldened by idiot leftist like yourself that cheered them on and a corrupt piece of **** mayor that excused their actions. You ****ing morons sat back and called their attacks on the police, conservatives, businesses, government buildings, and ultimately the federal building 'peaceful protests'. You said nothing while they tried to lock cops inside a precinct and then tried to burn down the building. The situation is not 'deescalating' because idiots like you and others are fanning the flames HOPING this has an impact in the election. You are literally celebrating the devastation, violence, and even loss of life as long as you can score a few political points. And its not just Portland...its all across the country. Its killing black Americans...the people you ****ing idiots are claiming to be supporting. Because of idiots like you, children are being killed in continued acts of violence and all you nitwits can do is sit around, jerk each other off and shriek TTTTRUUUUUUUMMMMPPPPP!!!!! TTTTRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMPPPPPPP!!!!!

You ****ing idiots are the problem.
 
I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

Your goal of wanting people to just be people, and race not to be a big issue, isn't wrong. But you appear to be horribly ignorant and oblivious to the situation of many people, especially black people, and what's needed to get from here to there. It's like your wife was raped, and you say, 'darling, I am against you being raped, but I'm also against having to be annoyed hearing about it. So, I'm against you telling me you were raped.'

There are plenty of legitimate 'concerns' to have about a movement like BLM. It is a popular movement borne of opposing injustice; as a popular movement, there's no guarantee it will always do the right thing. It's not only fine to criticize it if it doesn't, it's right to. But your 'I'm against BLM because they talk too much about race' is quite misguided. Opposing justice because it annoys you isn't much better than opposing it because you support injustice.

What you're saying can be fine on a more personal level. For example, corporations tend to 'treat people as people' and mostly ignore race. If there is a black person in a meeting, the meeting doesn't say "this is Barack. As a black person, he cares a lot about racial justice for black people. But treat him like a person." And so on. They just do. You don't have to talk about race all the time with black friends.

But we are a society, with a history, with issues, and some of those are systemic, and as a society, we need to care about that if we don't want every group less than half the country subject to abuses, because the majority say 'hey, it doesn't affect me, I don't care'. Institutions - police, courts, libraries, schools, politicians, even private businesses - are legitimately obligated to not behave too badly, and be constrained by society as needed.

The alternative, as you say - go look at the old pictures of Bull Connor using dogs and firehoses on black children, and say, 'not my problem, don't care, the government should not care.' That's the society you make with that approach. If not that exact one - times have changed - one with more George Floyds or other problems. You should celebrate BLM as our democracy actually functioning for once, and it's ok to condemn the 1% who use the protests for crime sprees.
 
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