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Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement


I'm not changing anything. This Black Lives Matter TOO has ALWAYS been the narrative. Racist scum has been trying to push the alternative interpretation since the beginning to discredit the movement. White supremacy is not imaginary. It is still around and it is still a threat. If you find yourself feeling insulted by that notion, you are part of a tiny pathetic group. I'm not going to waste any more of my time comforting a potential white supremacist who has had his feelings hurt by mean slogans.
 

Black people are susceptible to sickle-cell disease while cystic fibrosis and hemochromatosis are more common among European populations. According to your “unity” view, doctors should treat everyone the same, right?

In the same way, it doesn’t matter that in New York, 90 percent of those stopped and frisked were black or Latino, right? You don’t see color, so there isn’t a problem. They were harassing PEOPLE, not minorities...

Again, convenient.
 

Of course not. I mean as valued human beings, we should be seen as 'one', united together. It doesn't mean I think doctors can use useful genetic information to help any given individual. That's a strawman. Is 90% the actual number? That would seem to me to be an enormous difference. But yes, you are right, I would tend to say that the police were harassing PEOPLE, and not minorities.
 

Yeah, you’re so shielded from any racial bias, it’s so convenient for you to ignore it, that you don’t even know...

Again, I would suggest that you read The New Jim Crow.

Yes, the 90 percent number was accurate for 2017. And 70 percent of those harassed, were innocent.

It’s why police will troll the slums for marijuana, but leave the dorm rooms alone.
It’s why driving/walking/existing while black is a real thing.
It’s why neighborhoods are conveniently segregated by race.
It’s why “The War On Drugs” made crack cocaine punishable 100 times harsher than powder cocaine.
It’s why the income disparity by race in the US has only gotten worse since the 1970’s.

You are speaking from ignorance. And out of convenience. PLEASE do the research and even if you don’t want ours to be a system with racial disparities, realize that ours already IS a system that thrives on racial disparities. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.
 
What I see is more whining. No one assasinated your character. They said your OP clearly indicated that you are no one's idea of a "liberal". And, as I pointed out after reviewing your post history...they were CORRECT. You were being completely disingenuous, and you know it. You're a conservative. That's fine. Stop whining about being "attacked" simply because people didn't buy into your act.

1. I say, again, that you simply do not understand what racism is. "Racial narrative" is just mealy mouthed talk for "stuff that makes white people uncomfortable". If you can't explain EXACTLY what you're thinking, you're not prepared for this discussion.
2. This seems like more empty rhetoric. So what EXACTLY do you consider "unimportant aspects" of a public debate about racism an police misconduct? SECOND REQUEST.
3. Fair enough. But I have no idea how to restate your own argument for you. You'll have to do that yourself.

#BLM is focused on fighting racism and injustice in the legal system. It's really not that complicated. Why does that bother so many white people?

And again you persist with the DOCUMENTED untruths about #BLM being responsible for the violence. Why? If Trump's own FBI....and Trump's own DNI....BOTH acknowledge that EVERY major incidence of violence, rioting, arson or vandalism has been WHITE NATIONALIST in origin....and that, to date, ZERO have been traced to #BLM, or "far left" or "antifa" groups....why do insist on blaming #BLM for "nightly violence"? Is this the fault of the news are you getting up there in Canada? Or is this just an excuse that you're using to justify an ideological position?


As to who is being divided... it's you're entire nation. The entirety of your citizenry.
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The only thing happening is that white conservatives are upset. And when white conservatives get upset, they say (and honestly believe) that EVERYONE is upset. They don't like to see the stories of racism and police misconduct put on display. As long as black people continue to suffer from police brutality/mistreatment and racism in silence, white conservatives are ok. But as soon as black people stand up and protest, white conservatives are offended and feel "divided". That's a crock. The real story here is the PRIVILEGE or ENTITLEMENT that comes with being white in America.

Look around, are you even seeing what I'm seeing?
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I live here, remember? I don't need to watch it on the evening news. For 4 months, I could see (and participate) in a protest, in person, almost any day I chose. What you're seeing is a distortion. There are a few cities suffering from violence. And again, EVERY documented incident thus far has been traced to WHITE NATIONALIST, not #BLM. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring that reality. But if you were really a "liberal", you certainly would not.
 
fireflygmf said:
I don't think it's any different for black people. When I say everyone, I mean everyone. I don't find it useful to discern along racial lines, in general.
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You "don't find it useful to discern along racial lines"? Who has said that? Who has even implied that?

I think you are trying too hard to dance around the edges of what you really mean to say. It's not effective. It comes across as what it really is...empty talk.

Come on, man! Say what you really mean. You have a lot of strong opinions about this issue, but you won't be frank about them. It's not helpful, unless you really weren't interested in having this discussion with someone who has actually lived/experienced the other side of the equation from you. I've got news for you. The police REALLY do treat people like me differently than people like you. I've lived it. If you experienced it for 6 months, it would change your life. That I can assure you.

Fella, being disturbed is not being made a victim or being offended. I'm not either.
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Ok. I won't continue to belabor this point, other than to say again that no one "attacked your character". They just challenged your claim to be a "liberal". And I think they got it about right. You're not a liberal. You're a conservative, and that's ok. Just don't play semantics games with people.


It's a revelation of my frustration and worry for the fate of us all in North America if this kind of **** doesn't stop, and soon.
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Unfortunately, it won't "stop", until our government begins to crack down to the activities of White Nationalists in this country. These are the groups responsible for 80+% of the domestic terrorism in the U.S. These are the groups behind almost all of the riots, fires and vandalism that has erupted at a small minority of the #BLM protests. If we had a real Attorney General, we wouldn't be where we are today.

The problem isn't the #BLM movement, nor the protest marches. Those are the REACTIONS to the problem. And the problem is RACISM and police misconduct toward black and brown people in the U.S. There will be no more silence, just so that fragile white people can feel less threatened. This is a problem that is going to be address, one way or another.
 

I've checked your numbers and they seem correct. For a population of 55%, accounted for almost 90% of stops. What is your theory for this discrepancy?
 

Childish? You're the one behaving as if BLM is a political party instead of people.
By you (and Fox, and Trump) making them a political party, you divert attention from the issue, the issue being black people and their lives.
By making it into a de facto political party, you can force people to focus on the founders, or the actions of some who claim to be speaking and acting in the name of this "party" instead of focusing on black people.
Is BLM just a political party to you or not?
 
fireflygmf said:
Yes, exactly this. Do you see how this works? Do you see how this just shuts down dialogue entirely?
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No, in fact the opposite, because focusing on the political aspects of the BLM group prevents people from focusing on black lives.
For the right, BLM the GROUP is what matters.
For everyone else, black lives are what matters, so your premise fails.
 

We clearly won't agree on many of these points, I can see that now. My previous responses to your questions have been articulate and hoenst, yet you continue to push my in a box and label me, in an effort to position my identity as invalid to discredit my position.

I am on the record as supporting gay rights, women's right to choose, gun control, free medicare, racial equality, the need to take climate change seriously, I'm even an atheist fer chrissake, and the list goes on. I support almost every liberal policy you can imagine. I voted for Trudeau the first election then Singh this past election. Yet, somehow, because I don't agree with your positions, I'm conservative. Constantly with the 'you're a white conservative', 'white conservatives are fine when black people suffer brutality'. Tiresome. I've humoured you enough and answered all your questions in good faith, and you continue with this BS.

You're not interested in a dialogue, you just keep trying to push me into your defined box. Have at it.
 

Can you please give an example of someone pointing out that most victims of police killings are white, and also saying that we should ignore the problem? Thanks in advance.

Because my problem with BLM as a response to police brutality is that it sends the message that it is only a problem for black people, and white people don't need to worry. The statistics show that's not true, but many people are surprised to learn it. Wouldn't it be better to unite all kinds of people in efforts against police brutality toward all races?
 
Just wondering...was the holocaust about killing Jews, or people?
Were the American Indian wars incorrectly named?
How about MLK? Do you think he was just being decisive?
 

https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...re-likely-killed-police-5.html#post1072139929
In this thorough post by Captain Adverse, he breaks down the racial statistics of police killings. Here's a relevant excerpt.
Captain Adverse said:
Even so, almost twice as many Whites were killed between 2013 and 2017 inclusive, per that same study. Is that evidence of police targeting Whites?
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He doesn't say it in that post, but when I read his other posts in that thread and elsewhere, it seems to me that Captain Adverse is not in favor of any sort of police reform. In other words, the status quo of police tactics are fine, and the problem can be ignored. Every time I have seen this statistic is brought up, it is always by someone who is opposing police reform. So as I said before, they don't seem to care that innocent people of all races are being killed unnecessarily by police.

I understand your concern that BLM is too racially focused. I personally don't spend much of my energy arguing about the racial issues, for several reasons.

1. Successful police reform will help every race. If BLM succeeds, there will be fewer innocent white people killed by police. So as far as the end results are concerned, it literally doesn't matter if BLM focuses their messaging and attention on black communities.
2. There is no other organization that has a chance of generating this reform in the near future. Sure, maybe it would be better to "unite all kinds of people", and if you believe that I encourage you to find or start such an organization. It will be years before you have anywhere near the political support and chance of success that BLM has right now. It's too bad that the "All Lives Matter" slogan was co-opted for the anti-reform/status-quo movement. It might have been useful for your efforts otherwise.
 

You've been here all of perhaps three months, and you presume to know my history on any subject, much less this one?

Here are just three examples you might find had you done a search:

Posted 07/07/13:


Posted 11/01/15:


Posted 07/17/16:


Perhaps you should spend some time actually reviewing post history before you make snap judgements based on confirmation bias? Just a suggestion. :coffeepap:
 
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lol the truth doesn't bother me at all. at least I know the truth.
 

Made an account on this forum in June, been reading it for longer. But fair enough, if you say you're for reform I'll take your word for it. Still, even if I had read those 4+ year old posts I wouldn't have come to that conclusion. C'mon, "training the police to adapt to, and be slightly more sensitive to, the above issues" is a completely meaningless suggestion.
 

Your own post history confirms that YOU consider yourself to be a "Classical Liberal". It's clear that, as someone who is not American (as I suspected, and suggested, in my first response to your OP), you are just not well informed about the dynamics of race and racism in the U.S.

I've humoured you enough and answered all your questions in good faith, and you continue with this BS
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Actually, you've avoided the important points and questions. And I've been very patient with you, in large part because it was clear to me, from the beginning, that you are someone who speaks from the perspective of a justifiable ignorance. You don't know many black people...you don't have much (if any) exposure to the black community in general. So I don't fault you for that. I do fault you for doubling down on your pre-existing beliefs after they have been discredited.

You're not interested in a dialogue, you just keep trying to push me into your defined box.
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Sorry, but this is just more nonsense from you. And the shame of it is that I'm probably the only black man you've had (or ever will have) a chance to talk to about this issue. Yet, you don't seem inclined to engage in substantive dialogue that challenges your preconceived biases. Your perspective vs mine, is not a contest of equals. Not on this issue. If facts and objectivity meant anything to you, you'd be doing more listening, and less arguing.

Honestly, I don't think anyone really cares about your ideology. It's just obvious that you don't understand the issues, history and dynamics of race and racism in this country. And that's ok, because you're not an American. The point is that you are someone who is clearly ignorant about issues of race.

Have at it.
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You're free to go, but let's be clear about a couple of points:

  • --First, you have NOT answered all of my questions, nor have you addressed many of the statements of fact. For example, you STILL have not addressed the FACT that virtually ALL of the "violence" that you are attributing to #BLM has been DOCUMENTED to be of WHITE NATIONALIST origin. #BLM and/or "antifa" have NOT been responsible for the "violence" that you continue to attribute to them. Full Stop. I've offered you....what, 2 or 3??...opportunities to address that FACT, yet each time your response ignores it. And that is THE crux of the issue that you have raised in your OP.
  • --Next, I and STILL wondering why you believe the #BLM protests are "dividing" the country, rather than the LONG history of police violence and mistreatment toward African-Americans that has "divided" the country. Like most white men, you point your finger at the RE-actions, while ignoring the ACTIONS that caused them. This is not unusual, though. It is, in FACT, entirely keeping with all historical precedent. All is well, as long as minorities suffer in silence from the violence and mistreatment of racism; but let them resist, or speak out in protest (i.e. make white people uncomfortable), and suddenly they are "dividing the people".
  • --#BLM protests exist because police treat people like me differently than people like you. That's the bottom line. False accusations of "dividing the country"...and "violence by #BLM"...etc. etc....are dishonest and serve as rhetorical camouflage for those who seek to discredit the legitimate concerns of African-Americans regarding the plague of systemic racism in this country.


Throughout this thread, the responses you've received from others have been fairly consistent. That should matter to you, if you're as interested in dialogue as you claim.
 
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While it's true I have no direct exposure to a black community per se, I do have black acquaintances that I'm on friendly terms with but not close, but one guy I consider a close friend and I'm particularly close with him, as I respect his opinions on most things. But I take your point that this is not a community, but I don't think that puts me in a position of ignorance, just maybe a different perspective.
 

Wait, a minute. I just awarded jamesrage the most racist post of the week (so far) but this from yesterday is by far more racist. You take the lead again, Robert, for now. I expect jamesrage will try to beat this, though. I'll keep you informed.
 

:lamo
 

What in the hell would make you think that systemic racism in police departments should be unusual in northern and liberal states? Systemic racism in all of US society has existed everywhere in this country since before it was even a independent nation.
 

Certainly a different perspective. That's not in question.

Having a few black acquaintances is typical. Understanding that being in another country, and having a few black acquaintances does NOT lend to much (if any) understanding of the issues of race and racism in America...is not. Most people in your position do just as you did. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to the situation than what you may be seeing on your favorite news sources in Canada.

But the fact that you STILL refuse to acknowledge that the "violence" you are blaming on #BLM has been DOCUMENTED to be incited almost exclusively by WHITE NATIONALIST agitators (whom the FBI and the DNI state have been organizing on-line with the expressed desire to created violence and riots that can be blamed on the #BLM movment), and not "far-left"/"antifa" types....is still troubling. You seem intent on dodging that FACT, which brings into question your true desire for dialogue and understanding.
 
Master Debator said:
:lamo
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If you really want to rattle a Canadian on civil rights we could start talking about he horrific treatment of the indigenous population (now called First Nations) by the white settlers there. In many ways it's been at least as bad as our history on that subject. But, I digress (or do I?).
 
Hypothetical said:
lol the truth doesn't bother me at all. at least I know the truth.
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It's just that very massive cognitive dissonance and lack of self awareness of rightwingers that makes coming here so much fun.
 
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