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Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Irrelevant distinction in this case.

Actually, it's not. If it were a democracy, your "masses" could rule by tyranny.

Yes, that is precisely what I'm referring to. If you don't bend and acknowledge the reality that the 2nd Amendment was not designed to allow individual nut jobs access to weapons of mass murder

Weapons of mass murder like bolt action rifles, lever action rifles, revolvers, and Ruger 10/22s? Mass murder is an action that isn't limited by firearm. What the 2nd was designed to do is protect the right to keep and bear arms from government interference. If there are nut jobs out there, let's get rid of the nut jobs.

then eventually you're going to end up in a situation where the masses will get so fed up that they'll just amend the constitution and remove the 2nd amendment entirely.

Find a recent red/blue map of the US. Start counting red states. Stop when you get to 13.

If there is no Second Amendment, given the 9th and 10th Amendments and US v Cruikshank, what power does has the federal government been granted to regulate firearms at all?

You're either going to make reasonable compromises and have some access to weaponry restricted, or you're going to lose it all. The choice is yours, but the longer you wait to take option A the more likely you make option B.

The reasons that you want some weaponry restricted are the same reasons you can use to ban any class of firearms. We can see that. That you can't is just willful ignorance.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

No, I mean recognize the reality that this is a Democracy, and that the constitution was written a long time ago when it took close to a minute to reload a gun, and we didn't really have a full time standing army.

So all you have to do is try to change the Constitution. Get busy!

It’s rather ironic the number of leftists that are committed to the notion that the current president is Hitler incarnate and a fascist...and those same leftists would be then stupid enough to ask “but why do you need an AR 15?”


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re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

The ‘why’ question is foolish. In our country we don’t NEED a ‘why’. God bless America. But you might ask why so many people choose to own one and that has a lot of answers. People like them. They are fun to shoot. They make great home and castle defensive weapons. Many people hunt with them. Some like to shoot and even compete with them. Those are all good enough reasons. But there’s more. There are just enough ****heads in this country that are committed to try to **** it up for everyone else. History is a good teacher. I dont expect I will even NEED the fire extinguishers in my house. But should I ever need them I’ll be damn glad I have them. Same with the ARs. Now...the BIGGER question is why do you care? My guns are safe. I’m not a threat. You do your thing, I’ll do mine, and we won’t have a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

The response the video has is actually correct--though I can to some extent see the other side. It's partially because no one has a need for a nuclear warhead that we don't allow citizens to have them.

But there is in fact a need for citizens to own AR-15s, Kalishnakovs, rocket launchers, mortars, grenades, etc. It's because the police and military have those things. Citizens must be able to bring to bear the same force that can be used to oppress them. So long as a police officer can carry an AR-15, private citizens should also be able to own AR-15s.

All politics comes down to force eventually.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]


To your first point. That is actually untrue, from 1980 up until 1996 there was 20 mass shootings where over 132 people lost their lives and over 600 people were injured in these 20 shootings along. Is that not significant to you??

Exactly.. so that's less than 2 per year if we use your statistics. Yes.. that's not very significant.

Secondly, this source highlights how overall crime is decreasing. No doubt firearm legislation is not the primary medium that would decline overall crime rates,

Actually it does. Overall crime WAS decreasing including violent crime decreasing in Australia BEFORE they enacted your gun law. So of COURSE.. a decrease in crime is correlated with that gun law.. because the process that was causing the decrease in Australia was still in place. Actually when you look at the Australian numbers statistically you see that when they enacted their gun laws.. the decrease in crime actually slowed from the rate it was decreasing prior to the law.

So the best you can conclude is that there is no evidence that the gun law.. decreased crime.. and you could possibly conclude that there is evidence that the gun law might have made violent crime worse.

It seems you perceive that implementing gun legislation can only increase crime, rather than decrease it.

Absolutely not. I am going with the statistical facts based on valid research.

Thirdly, so the dozens of court interpretations pertaining to the Second Amendment haven't misconstrued or altered the meaning???

Frankly.. no. There are times when our courts interpret the second correctly.. there are times when the courts.. because of bias or ignorance, interpret the second incorrectly.

But the reality is that the meaning of the second amendment is the same.. just like the other amendments in the bill of rights.

To your next point. So what is the true context of the Second Amendment??

It was designed to make sure that individuals could bear arms.. whether in defense of themselves, their homes , their states or their country. Thus the word militia, which was basically every male citizen (freemen) from 16 to 45 (something like that).

To your next point, please explain how it has been adapted to modern times, when the Second Amendment phrasing is the same today as it was 229 years ago. Hardly modern.....

Well.. 229 years ago.. the second amendment did not apply to say Africans who were slaves. Now it applies to black folks as well as white folks, Asians and women.

Back 229.. arms that "can be borne".. or easily carried were firearms, swords, knives etc... the rest was artillery and ordinance. In todays world.. an "
arm" that can be carried could include a portable missile. Or a hand held grenade launcher, or a bomb.. and yet the second amendment doesn;t cover that.. those "arms" as it were (arms in quotes because the modern definition of arms are personal arms.. which don't include such things as hand held stinger missile launchers) without some "infringement" or regulation.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

No, I mean recognize the reality that this is a Democracy, and that the constitution was written a long time ago when it took close to a minute to reload a gun, and we didn't really have a full time standing army.

Hmmm.. lets look at that logic.

Obviously we should restrict internet access, because the constitution was written a long time ago when it took days to write and distribute political propaganda or have internet bullying. .. and we didn;t have computers.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Actually, I do. But I don't really need one.


Even the staunchest free speech advocate recognize the reality that you can't yell Fire in a crowded theatre. People have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If the pursuit of your happiness is very clearly interfering with someone else's ability to live then your rights are butting heads with someone else, and we're going to have to find a way to prioritize them.

you normally cannot shoot a rifle in crowded theater. But you certainly possess the ability to shout fire if there is indeed a fire or if the theater is empty etc. You clearly are unable to understand the difference between restrictions on USE vs POSSESSION. Me possessing, bearing or keeping any type of firearm has ZERO impact on any right you might justifiably possess
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Actually, I do. But I don't really need one.


Even the staunchest free speech advocate recognize the reality that you can't yell Fire in a crowded theatre. People have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If the pursuit of your happiness is very clearly interfering with someone else's ability to live then your rights are butting heads with someone else, and we're going to have to find a way to prioritize them.

Yep. Tell me. How does my ownership of a firearm for protect butt heads with you? Or the TENS OF MILLIONS of other owners? You are the one spouting extremist talk about “breaking” the people who disagree with you. Sounds to me more like the words of a tyrant who wants to interfere with life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

On these hot button issues all sources are biased.

The real question you need to ask yourself is........why are YOUR biased sources covering up the many thousands of incidents where the mere presence of a gun in the hand of the intended victim causes the thug to flee?

How so are they biased??? Many of them pertain to the USA Government and primary organisations throughout the USA. When I put down any facts or statistics I usually compare with multiple sources to ensure its credibility. No doubt there is....however was the death of that person being threatened as imminent as a mass murderer with a firearm rampaging in a Florida school or on the Las Vegas Strip. The variables need to be weighed up. Additionally measurement of such variables is something that lacks consistency and requires the onus of the individual. Additionally I will repeat my statistic 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide".

If you can present me the statistics for such notions, I will gladly look into it.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

How so are they biased??? Many of them pertain to the USA Government and primary organisations throughout the USA. When I put down any facts or statistics I usually compare with multiple sources to ensure its credibility. No doubt there is....however was the death of that person being threatened as imminent as a mass murderer with a firearm rampaging in a Florida school or on the Las Vegas Strip. The variables need to be weighed up. Additionally measurement of such variables is something that lacks consistency and requires the onus of the individual. Additionally I will repeat my statistic 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide".

If you can present me the statistics for such notions, I will gladly look into it.

worthless statistic=most crimes are deterred with less than lethal force
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Exactly.. so that's less than 2 per year if we use your statistics. Yes.. that's not very significant.



Actually it does. Overall crime WAS decreasing including violent crime decreasing in Australia BEFORE they enacted your gun law. So of COURSE.. a decrease in crime is correlated with that gun law.. because the process that was causing the decrease in Australia was still in place. Actually when you look at the Australian numbers statistically you see that when they enacted their gun laws.. the decrease in crime actually slowed from the rate it was decreasing prior to the law.

So the best you can conclude is that there is no evidence that the gun law.. decreased crime.. and you could possibly conclude that there is evidence that the gun law might have made violent crime worse.



Absolutely not. I am going with the statistical facts based on valid research.



Frankly.. no. There are times when our courts interpret the second correctly.. there are times when the courts.. because of bias or ignorance, interpret the second incorrectly.

But the reality is that the meaning of the second amendment is the same.. just like the other amendments in the bill of rights.



It was designed to make sure that individuals could bear arms.. whether in defense of themselves, their homes , their states or their country. Thus the word militia, which was basically every male citizen (freemen) from 16 to 45 (something like that).



Well.. 229 years ago.. the second amendment did not apply to say Africans who were slaves. Now it applies to black folks as well as white folks, Asians and women.

Back 229.. arms that "can be borne".. or easily carried were firearms, swords, knives etc... the rest was artillery and ordinance. In todays world.. an "
arm" that can be carried could include a portable missile. Or a hand held grenade launcher, or a bomb.. and yet the second amendment doesn;t cover that.. those "arms" as it were (arms in quotes because the modern definition of arms are personal arms.. which don't include such things as hand held stinger missile launchers) without some "infringement" or regulation.

To your first point. That is quite demonising of the lives lost in those 2 per year. Any mass shooting is as bad as the other, with every life lost just as tragic as the last. No matter if there was 2 mass shootings every year or 50 mass shootings every year its an issue which must be addressed. This quite clearly depicts the severity of the issue faced in the US currently.

Next point. Where are your statistics from??

Homicide Rates- 1970- 1.2 per 100,000 contrasted to 1994- 1.9 per 100,000
- The trend line quite clearly shows an increase with some fluctuations between 1989 and 1994. Over a period of 1 year there might have been a slight decline but it then rose dramatically the next year.

Serious Assault- 1973- 20 per 100,000 contrasted to 1994- 118 per 100,000.
- A clear trend of a significant increase formed.

Rape- 1973- 3 per 100,00 contrasted to 1994- 24 per 100,000
- Another increase


Source- Australian Institute of Criminology

How is this showing a decrease??? What sources were you utilising???

Thirdly. Valid Research?? I just highlighted the lack of credibility and validity of your research.

To your next point. So how do you distinguish bias in the court systems, that is completely propelled by personal judgement. In legislation the meaning of Second Amendment was different in 1992, than it was in 2009, that is at least a lack of consistency.

Additionally. Point accepted.

The change to allow individuals of any race or colour was in 1875 (United States v. Cruikshank) that is not modern times. The car, telephone and tractor hadn't even been invented at that point.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

How so are they biased??? Many of them pertain to the USA Government and primary organisations throughout the USA. When I put down any facts or statistics I usually compare with multiple sources to ensure its credibility. No doubt there is....however was the death of that person being threatened as imminent as a mass murderer with a firearm rampaging in a Florida school or on the Las Vegas Strip. The variables need to be weighed up. Additionally measurement of such variables is something that lacks consistency and requires the onus of the individual. Additionally I will repeat my statistic 36 criminal homicides for every "justifiable homicide".

If you can present me the statistics for such notions, I will gladly look into it.

Many criminals change their mind as soon as a would be victim makes it known they are armed. Situation over, why would anyone involve police at that point?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

worthless statistic=most crimes are deterred with less than lethal force

Your credibility is truely lacking, it is something to state something like this but at least back it up with something.

A worthless statistic according to who...it is confirmed on at least half a dozen sources The US Governmental Crime Data, Pro Con.org and an independent academic report.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Many criminals change their mind as soon as a would be victim makes it known they are armed. Situation over, why would anyone involve police at that point?

According to who???

I am sorry but basic logic suggests that many of these criminals have this intent to commit a crime, driven by mental health issues or pure evil will commit the crime. This intent under much legislation is typically and wilful. Insanity does not conduct a well though out process in the individuals brain structures, rather into is programed in a warped and twisted way
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Yep. Tell me. How does my ownership of a firearm for protect butt heads with you? Or the TENS OF MILLIONS of other owners? You are the one spouting extremist talk about “breaking” the people who disagree with you. Sounds to me more like the words of a tyrant who wants to interfere with life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Well you can either be a tyrant wanting the right to a gun or a tyrant wanting the right to life. I am not sure which selection your moral and ethical structures direct you to, however mine most definitely value life over a right to an object which is manufactured with the primary purpose to shoot and with the potential to inflict harm or death. Additionally just because a right is in place does not imply that the right has to be exercised. Just like cannabis....it may be legal and a right under legislation in some states, however it does not mean it needs to be exercised because one must weigh up the moral, ethical and health facets to make an informed decision.

Extremist by definition "a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action"

The notions mentioned by blackjack50 are not 'extreme' nor politically or religiously driven. Additionally nothing that is stated is advocating an illegality, violence or extremism. In fact your views are more violent by nature and association that the ones being expressed.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Actually, I do. But I don't really need one.


Even the staunchest free speech advocate recognize the reality that you can't yell Fire in a crowded theatre. People have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If the pursuit of your happiness is very clearly interfering with someone else's ability to live then your rights are butting heads with someone else, and we're going to have to find a way to prioritize them.

We have already found a way to prioritize. Shall not be infringed tops the list.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Your credibility is truely lacking, it is something to state something like this but at least back it up with something.

A worthless statistic according to who...it is confirmed on at least half a dozen sources The US Governmental Crime Data, Pro Con.org and an independent academic report.

so you are pretending that the only way to deter a criminal with a firearm is to kill the criminal

and you claim my credibility is lacking?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

so you are pretending that the only way to deter a criminal with a firearm is to kill the criminal

and you claim my credibility is lacking?

I don't believe I ever implied or stated that notion. The firearm is what needs to be killed, per-say

Correct I do..
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I don't believe I ever implied or stated that notion. The firearm is what needs to be killed, per-say

Correct I do..

how you going to do that? Kill firearms?
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

how you going to do that? Kill firearms?

I have already stated how this would be done, also why I framed my statement by per-say.

Stricter legislation on all elements of firearms and the eventual banning of at least semi-automatic weapons. The exemptions would be sporting events and circumstances where hunting is necessary or part of employment.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I have already stated how this would be done, also why I framed my statement by per-say.

Stricter legislation on all elements of firearms and the eventual banning of at least semi-automatic weapons. The exemptions would be sporting events and circumstances where hunting is necessary or part of employment.

At least you're honest. I'll give you that. Banning was, is, and always will be, the ultimate goal.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I was hoping to hear some actual defenses of assault rifle ownership, but all I heard was "You can't ask us anything! It's in the BoR!", like that settles the issue.

For the record, I'm fine with people owning AR-15's and whatnot. I'm even fine with people owning automatic weapons, so long as the meet the legal standards as defined by the ATF regulations.

But this guys contempt for Americans that want sensible gun laws, and to discuss the liability each class of firearm poses, is what will lead to the 2A getting wiped out eventually.

What is your defense against banning assault kitchen knives (they have black handles instead of wood grain)?

Can you even define what "assault rifle" means (Hint: the AR in AR-15 means "Armalite Rifle" not "Assault Rifle")

What are the "regulations" for our other constitutional rights?

How about a three day waiting period before saying what you think?

This might be "common sense thought laws" - this would avoid all the issues with "bad think" or "hate speech"
 
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re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

According to who???

I am sorry but basic logic suggests that many of these criminals have this intent to commit a crime, driven by mental health issues or pure evil will commit the crime. This intent under much legislation is typically and wilful. Insanity does not conduct a well though out process in the individuals brain structures, rather into is programed in a warped and twisted way

Staring down the barrel of a pistol has a way of modifying behavior.
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Staring down the barrel of a pistol has a way of modifying behavior.

In some cases yes....however in others no.

1) The chemical in ones brain will not suddenly retreat or surrender, they will pursue the objective that caused them to end up in that situation. That is shoot back.

For example....do you believe that Stephen Paddock or the recent Parkland shooter would have been 'scared' off by a firearm???
 
re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

In some cases yes....however in others no.

1) The chemical in ones brain will not suddenly retreat or surrender, they will pursue the objective that caused them to end up in that situation. That is shoot back.

For example....do you believe that Stephen Paddock or the recent Parkland shooter would have been 'scared' off by a firearm???

They sure could of been stopped with one. I was referring to unarmed criminals or ones with inferior arms, knife, stick, fist etc.

Some mass shooters commit suicide when armed resistance arrives.
 
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