Why do so many who back those living in Gaza, blame Israel?

[independentusa]

So many on this message board seem to forget that Israel did not start this mess, it was those living in Gaza. Yes, they seem to think that there is a difference between those living in Gaza and Hamas, but they are wrong. Those people in Gaza think of Hamas as resistance fighters and back them by not only electing them as their government, but seemingly to approve of their actions toward Israel. You hear those who are interviewed in Gaza complain about Israel's attacks, but never a word about what started this whole mess, which was their own neighbors who belong to Hamas. By inaction the people of Gaza have allowed their enclave to become a warren for Hamas. These same people could not have missed the preparation for Hamas's attack on Israel and now although I feel sorry for the plight of those living in Gaza, I understand Israel's being tired of the constant rocket attacks and now this slaughter of their people in the Streets of Israel.

 

[redbeer]

So many on this message board seem to forget that Israel did not start this mess, it was those living in Gaza. Yes, they seem to think that there is a difference between those living in Gaza and Hamas, but they are wrong. Those people in Gaza think of Hamas as resistance fighters and back them by not only electing them as their government, but seemingly to approve of their actions toward Israel. You hear those who are interviewed in Gaza complain about Israel's attacks, but never a word about what started this whole mess, which was their own neighbors who belong to Hamas. By inaction the people of Gaza have allowed their enclave to become a warren for Hamas. These same people could not have missed the preparation for Hamas's attack on Israel and now although I feel sorry for the plight of those living in Gaza, I understand Israel's being tired of the constant rocket attacks and now this slaughter of their people in the Streets of Israel.

Israel has the right to defend its' people, who were killed through senseless violence from those who do not see them as human beings. They knew this affront would lead Israel to attack, and their purpose is to grow the world's response against Israel. It's happening across the world, as they attempt to turn it into an attack upon the Palestinian people. It is not.

Nobody in the world, who shows support towards those murderers on Oct. 7th deserves respect or a megaphone to voice a hatred which has been brewing for thousands of years.....it is a governments rightful response to a terrorist attack upon its' people. Problem being, as we are witnessing, the powers which be are giving these lunatics a voice and they use it as a means to push narratives against the Jewish people.

I stand in support of Israel and their right to defend their people and land.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

The Palestinians have had chances to have their own country... Their leaders have ALWAYS let them down
.. 1 reason I keep hearing is even their leaders don't believe the Palestinians can, without help, run their own country...Basically it would be 3rd world... A Palestinian country wouldn't be able to compete with its neighbors...

Idk... But Arafat sure as hell didn't want anything to do with being the leader of a separate Palestinian state... So there might be something to that opinion...

 

[Nomad4Ever]

It's not that I exclusively blame Israel, but they do hold a lot of the blame for creating the situation in which organizations like Hamas can gain power.

For one, Israel is literally responsible for Hamas. They funded them very early on because they didn't like the more secular Palestinian government and wanted to destabilize them. So they funded their more radical political enemies.

This went about as well as when the US did it. And like the US they have suffered the consequences for decades.

But more than that, people seem to readily recognize that the US policy in the Middle East created the condition for radical organizations like ISIS/Taliban etc to recruit and gain support. Is the US responsible for every action those orgs took? No, of course not. But our hands aren't clean either. Similarly Israel is largely responsible for creating the conditions that allow Hamas to remain popular.

Also Israel just keeps ****ing the West Bank over and over again despite the Palestinian government there not conducting any violent resistance and recognizing the Israeli state. Hamas uses that too. "Look, peaceful resistance and diplomacy are totally ineffective. We need to violently resist Israel". Free recruiting material.

 

[Dans La Lune]

I'll just put this here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[thinkingoutloud]

So many on this message board seem to forget that Israel did not start this mess, it was those living in Gaza. Yes, they seem to think that there is a difference between those living in Gaza and Hamas, but they are wrong. Those people in Gaza think of Hamas as resistance fighters and back them by not only electing them as their government, but seemingly to approve of their actions toward Israel. You hear those who are interviewed in Gaza complain about Israel's attacks, but never a word about what started this whole mess, which was their own neighbors who belong to Hamas. By inaction the people of Gaza have allowed their enclave to become a warren for Hamas. These same people could not have missed the preparation for Hamas's attack on Israel and now although I feel sorry for the plight of those living in Gaza, I understand Israel's being tired of the constant rocket attacks and now this slaughter of their people in the Streets of Israel.

Maybe because so many know a little bit more of history:
"There is no Zionism, colonization, or Jewish state without the EVICTION of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."—Ariel Sharon, Nov. 15, 1998

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours ... Everything we don't grab will go to them."—Ariel Sharon (as Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998)

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."—Ariel Sharon (October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio)

 

[Dans La Lune]

The Palestinians have had chances to have their own country... Their leaders have ALWAYS let them down
.. 1 reason I keep hearing is even their leaders don't believe the Palestinians can, without help, run their own country...Basically it would be 3rd world... A Palestinian country wouldn't be able to compete with its neighbors...

Idk... But Arafat sure as hell didn't want anything to do with being the leader of a separate Palestinian state... So there might be something to that opinion...

What would make the Palestinians unable to govern themselves?

This is a racist / colonialist notion, by the way. That certain groups of people are unable to govern themselves, thus must be subjugated indefinitely for the security of the colonizers.

 

[thinkingoutloud]

Maybe because so many know a little bit more of history:
"There is no Zionism, colonization, or Jewish state without the EVICTION of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."—Ariel Sharon, Nov. 15, 1998

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours ... Everything we don't grab will go to them."—Ariel Sharon (as Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998)

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."—Ariel Sharon (October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio)

Maybe Sharon was really and anti-Semite since he repeated so many anti-Semitic tropes in most of his statements?

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

What would make the Palestinians unable to govern themselves?

I'm not sure.. Ask their leaders who turned down chances for a Palestinian country... Ask the other Arab countries who want nothing to do with the Palestinians...

 

[BirdinHand]

. And like the US they have suffered the consequences for decades

Without the luxury of being geographically isolated and relatively safe.

If we had such hostile neighbors, we would be just as - if not more - brutal than Israel.

 

[Dans La Lune]

I'm not sure.. Ask their leaders who turned down chances for a Palestinian country... Ask the other Arab countries who want nothing to do with the Palestinians...

This is a white-wash of the Oslo Accords that absolves Israel of any culpability. There were Palestinians who objected because they would not have received legitimate self-determination. The chief saboteur was Netanyahu.

It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith | Avi Shlaim

Avi Shlaim: I thought the peace accords 20 years ago could work, but Israel used them as cover for its colonial project in Palestine

www.theguardian.com

In 2000 the Oslo peace process broke down following the failure of the Camp David summit and the outbreak of the second intifada. Why? Israelis claim that the Palestinians made a strategic choice to return to violence and consequently there was no Palestinian partner for peace. As I see it, Palestinian violence was a contributory factor, but not the main cause. The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal.

Sadly, the Jewish fanatic who assassinated Rabin in 1995 achieved his broader aim of derailing the peace train. In 1996 the rightwing Likud returned to power under the leadership of Binyamin Netanyahu. He made no effort to conceal his deep antagonism to Oslo, denouncing it as incompatible with Israel's right to security and with the historic right of the Jewish people to the whole land of Israel. And he spent his first three years as PM in a largely successful attempt to arrest, undermine, and subvert the accords concluded by his Labour predecessors.

Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory.

The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown.

The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Their number doubled during the following decade.

The Oslo accords had many faults, chief of which was the failure to proscribe settlement expansion while peace talks were in progress. But the agreement was not doomed to failure from the start, as its critics allege. Oslo faltered and eventually broke down because Likud-led governments negotiated in bad faith.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Without the luxury of being geographically isolated and relatively safe.

If we had such hostile neighbors, we would be just as - if not more - brutal than Israel.

The Palestinians are the Indians / Indigenous people in the analogy of colonialist era America.

'Too savage, they must be wiped out of existence for the security of White Christians.'

 

[Dans La Lune]

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” - Ben Gurion, Founder of Israel

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

This is a white-wash of the Oslo Accords that absolves Israel of any culpability. There were Palestinians who objected because they would not have received legitimate self-determination. The chief saboteur was Netanyahu.

It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith | Avi Shlaim

Avi Shlaim: I thought the peace accords 20 years ago could work, but Israel used them as cover for its colonial project in Palestine

www.theguardian.com

So Arafat had no blame? The Arab countries? No blame for not doing anything for the Palestinians except to use them as cannon fodder? Why does Jordan put them in camps? Why won't Egypt help them? Where's Saudi Arabia and there money? Except to arm them to kill Israelis?

 

[independentusa]

Th

It's not that I exclusively blame Israel, but they do hold a lot of the blame for creating the situation in which organizations like Hamas can gain power.

For one, Israel is literally responsible for Hamas. They funded them very early on because they didn't like the more secular Palestinian government and wanted to destabilize them. So they funded their more radical political enemies.

This went about as well as when the US did it. And like the US they have suffered the consequences for decades.

But more than that, people seem to readily recognize that the US policy in the Middle East created the condition for radical organizations like ISIS/Taliban etc to recruit and gain support. Is the US responsible for every action those orgs took? No, of course not. But our hands aren't clean either. Similarly Israel is largely responsible for creating the conditions that allow Hamas to remain popular.

Also Israel just keeps ****ing the West Bank over and over again despite the Palestinian government there not conducting any violent resistance and recognizing the Israeli state. Hamas uses that too. "Look, peaceful resistance and diplomacy are totally ineffective. We need to violently resist Israel". Free recruiting material.

that is bullshit. Many times over the years the two state solution has been made available to the PLO and terrorists like Hamas and they turned it down, yes they turned it down because they wanted to kick the Jews out or kill them all and take back what they consider theirs. Many here see only the past twenty years, but this has been going on since 1948. Israel has had to fight war after war with the Arabs and the Palestinians and now you think that that Israel has a reason not to trust those who have tried for over 70 years to destroy them, really? You do realize that the original size of Israel was a lot smaller, but after the wars Israel added land to make more secure borders. They had basically left Gaza alone except those times when those in Gaza sent rockets into Israel and this was a slaughter by Hamas, not just an incursion. They actually stabbed, burnt and shot babies in the head.

 

[independentusa]

The Palestinians are the Indians / Indigenous people in the analogy of colonialist era America.

'Too savage, they must be wiped out of existence for the security of White Christians.'

That is total bullshit. There were both Arabs/Muslims and many Jews living in what was then Palestine. At the time of Jesus, most of that area was Jewish if you remember. After the Romans pulled out, Arab Muslims moved n and pushed many of the Jews off their land after the crusades. When the English were going to pull out after WWII, the Arabs decided to push or kill all of the Jews, but they failed to see that the Jews were finished being killed just because they were jews and fought back and took what is now part of Israel to set up their own nation.

 

[BirdinHand]

The Palestinians are the Indians / Indigenous people in the analogy of colonialist era America.

No.

First, Israel isn't colonizing.
Second, there were Jewish natives on the land even prior to the British Mandate.
Third, Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution and rejected it.

 

[Blue Dog]

People cannot even agree on the lands history.…

 

[samiam5211]

So many on this message board seem to forget that Israel did not start this mess, it was those living in Gaza. Yes, they seem to think that there is a difference between those living in Gaza and Hamas, but they are wrong. Those people in Gaza think of Hamas as resistance fighters and back them by not only electing them as their government, but seemingly to approve of their actions toward Israel. You hear those who are interviewed in Gaza complain about Israel's attacks, but never a word about what started this whole mess, which was their own neighbors who belong to Hamas. By inaction the people of Gaza have allowed their enclave to become a warren for Hamas. These same people could not have missed the preparation for Hamas's attack on Israel and now although I feel sorry for the plight of those living in Gaza, I understand Israel's being tired of the constant rocket attacks and now this slaughter of their people in the Streets of Israel.

Pretty much none of the people who started this mess are alive anymore.

If you are suggesting that it started on 10/7, that is a very convenient starting point to choose.

Who started it is irrelevant.

Israel is committing war crimes, and BiBi's goals for this operation are to ethnically cleanse part of Gaza. Israel will annex at least part of Gaza when this is over.

 

[BirdinHand]

Israel is committing war crimes,

Perhaps, perhaps not. Seems to depend on who you ask. And either way, nothing will happen to Israel.

and BiBi's goals for this operation are to ethnically cleanse part of Gaza.

Eradicate Hamas and Hamas sympathizers - yes. But as for the general, mostly peaceful Palestinian population, Israel doesn’t have a problem with them. Only radicalized ones who won’t accept the legitimacy of the Israeli state. Sadly, there are many of them. Hopefully many can give up that train of thought and further teachings of that nature can be extinguished.

Israel will annex at least part of Gaza when this is over.

Wouldn’t be surprised at all if that was the outcome.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Without the luxury of being geographically isolated and relatively safe.

If we had such hostile neighbors, we would be just as - if not more - brutal than Israel.

Which of course is why the Palestinians have been brutal, they are occupied and oppressed

 

[samiam5211]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Seems to depend on who you ask. And either way, nothing will happen to Israel.

Eradicate Hamas and Hamas sympathizers - yes. But as for the general, mostly peaceful Palestinian population, Israel doesn’t have a problem with them. Only radicalized ones who won’t accept the legitimacy of the Israeli state. Sadly, there are many of them. Hopefully many can give up that train of thought and further teachings of that nature can be extinguished.

Wouldn’t be surprised at all if that was the outcome.

Israel's action's are only going to create more extremists in Gaza.

if they annex part of Gaza, then it means they will have ethnically cleansed that area of Palestinians, which would be a war crime.

 

[BirdinHand]

Israel's action's are only going to create more extremists in Gaza.

if they annex part of Gaza, then it means they will have ethnically cleansed that area of Palestinians, which would be a war crime.

Israel isn’t an ethnostate.

There is no ethnic cleansing.

There is a land dispute.

Israel has accepted Islamic and Christian religions within its country. Including many Palestinians.

The factions of Palestinians that will not accept ANY Israeli state at all are the problem.

And that mentality needs to end.

Until it does, it’s one gigantic ugly mess and people will continue to die. Including innocent civilians that do not share those beliefs.

 

[samiam5211]

Israel isn’t an ethnostate.

There is no ethnic cleansing.

If they drive the Palestinians off the land of Northern Gaza permanently, then they ethnically cleansed that land.

 

[BirdinHand]

If they drive the Palestinians off the land of Northern Gaza permanently, then they ethnically cleansed that land.

Ethnic cleansing = rendering an area ethnically homogenous.

Israel is NOT ethnically homogenous.

Words have meanings, stop using the wrong words.

The only side here that wants to ethnically cleanse the region are Islamic radicals (Hamas specifically inside Gaza) and those who support them.