Why do so many hate guns/constitution?

[OpportunityCost]

No your overall murder rate per capita is nearly 5 times ours. 70% of which involve the use of a firearm

Having twice the rape?
Higher assault rates?
More property crime?
Higher robbery rates?
Higher car theft per capita?
Higher percentage of crime victims per year?
Higher overall crime RATE?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No your overall murder rate per capita is nearly 5 times ours. 70% of which involve the use of a firearm

No that is not correct.

our rate is 3.5, you're is 1 even. that does not equal 5.

 

[flogger]

Yet their violent crime rate is a good deal lower as well as their overall homicide rate. So guns aren't the overall factor.

Switzerland being one of the most affluent countries on Earth is the major factor. Crime and poverty go hand in hand

Logically, gun bans are not impacting the OVERALL crime rate, enough to justify disarming citizens to no net effect. Yes they effect the gun crime rate which is why you focus on it, if I took away ladders, your danger of falling off one would go down (derp).

But in Switzerland they most certainly DO disproportionately impact the most violent crime. Focusing on lesser crime is just an irrelevent deflection

So what we are left with is people wanting to disarm citizens and make them defenseless for political reasons. The US is egalitarian. People in the US like being self reliant and being able to defend themselves. We believe in self government as well, so getting a gun ban is a non starter right now except in liberal bastions

Your society certainly pays a hefty price for that given you lose more people to firearms every two years than you did in the decade long Vietnam war. Its almost like you are in a sort of low level civil war with yourselves and that many of you actually like it to be that way

 

[flogger]

No that is not correct.

our rate is 3.5, you're is 1 even. that does not equal 5.

Its actually 4.7 if you want to get picky

International Comparison '.org': Crime and Incarceration Statistics per Country

 

[EMNofSeattle]

But why would you want a society where its made so easy to commit acts of extreme violence ?

A meaningless question.

Hmm ... see post #112 for details on that.

details on what? His cite shows exactly what I said. maybe you're looking at the total number homicide figure, but per capita it shows exactly what I said.

And they all have considerably higher rates of gun death too

again no one cares, only gun banners focus on gun deaths. no one else care about that number. no one. people look at actual criminal acts in the broad category, not a subcategory used to advance a political agenda.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Switzerland being one of the most affluent countries on Earth is the major factor. Crime and poverty go hand in hand

Oh. So poverty causes crime, not guns. Thanks. Why don't you start fighting poverty instead?

But in Switzerland they most certainly DO disproportionately impact the most violent crime. Focusing on lesser crime is just an irrelevant deflection

Mainly because it eviscerates your major talking point. Not a deflection, but a point of fact that disproves gun ownership means higher crime rates.

Your society certainly pays a hefty price for that given you lose more people to firearms every two years than you did in the decade long Vietnam war. Its almost like you are in a sort of low level civil war with yourselves and that many of you actually like it to be that way

Your society pays for that by making your citizens reliant on society to protect them. Our citizens prefer to have options to defend themselves. Egalitarian societies are many things, orderly and completely safe are not among them.

 

[flogger]

Having twice the rape?
Higher assault rates?
More property crime?
Higher robbery rates?
Higher car theft per capita?
Higher percentage of crime victims per year?
Higher overall crime RATE?

But you've already been shown this is complete nonsense .... twice :roll:

 

[OpportunityCost]

But you've already been shown this is complete nonsense .... twice :roll:

Nah you just go running back to gun stats ignoring the overall picture and rates. You didn't disprove it, you cherry picked gun related crimes and compared them rather than the overall numbers.

Btw, I never argued those numbers. So how did you disprove something I never argued?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Its actually 4.7 if you want to get picky

International Comparison '.org': Crime and Incarceration Statistics per Country

I'm citing numbers off of UN's ODC which cites 3.8, mis-remembered it, but It's no where near 6, or 4.7.

Also UK Statistics on homicides are adjusted to exclude cases not resulting in an arrest. If we compiled our statistics in this manner our homicide rate would go down by 40%

 

[flogger]

A meaningless question.

Not for the victims though I suspect

details on what? His cite shows exactly what I said. maybe you're looking at the total number homicide figure, but per capita it shows exactly what I said.

Indeed and per capita the US is the most violent developed country by some margin

again no one cares

I appreciate your candour. There little more need be said after that admission

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Oh. So poverty causes crime, not guns. Thanks. Why don't you start fighting poverty instead?


Mainly because it eviscerates your major talking point. Not a deflection, but a point of fact that disproves gun ownership means higher crime rates.



Your society pays for that by making your citizens reliant on society to protect them. Our citizens prefer to have options to defend themselves. Egalitarian societies are many things, orderly and completely safe are not among them.

Isn't that the truth, ever look at student handbooks in Japan? They regulate children's conduct in insane detail, down to how many eyelets are on your shoes.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Not for the victims though I suspect

That's not how you set policy. If you let the victim of every possible misfortune set a law we'd all be in prison.

Indeed and per capita the US is the most violent developed country by some margin


(

Indeed we would by the margins you measure.

 

[flogger]

Oh. So poverty causes crime, not guns. Thanks. Why don't you start fighting poverty instead?

The verbal gymnastics you guys use in defence of the indefensible is unbelievable :shock:

Mainly because it eviscerates your major talking point. Not a deflection, but a point of fact that disproves gun ownership means higher crime rates.

The numbers (yes even Switzerlands) speak for themselves

Your society pays for that by making your citizens reliant on society to protect them. Our citizens prefer to have options to defend themselves. Egalitarian societies are many things, orderly and completely safe are not among them.

And half a million dead since the turn of the century is the price you pay

 

[OpportunityCost]

The verbal gymnastics you guys use in defence of the indefensible is unbelievable :shock:

Poverty is a higher determinant on crime than guns.

The numbers (yes even Switzerlands) speak for themselves

Indeed they do, Switzerland has a MUCH lower crime rate than the UK.

And half a million dead since the turn of the century is the price you pay

Yet many more die from Cancer, Heart disease, and Diabetes. Hey, lets ban fast food! Why don't you write that appeal to emotion down on paper and burn it on a cold winter day so its useful for something.

 

[flogger]

Poverty is a higher determinant on crime than guns.

And easy access to guns makes that crime so much more likely to be lethal

Indeed they do, Switzerland has a MUCH lower crime rate than the UK.

And a much higher number of shootings per capita

Yet many more die from Cancer, Heart disease, and Diabetes. Hey, lets ban fast food! Why don't you write that appeal to emotion down on paper and burn it on a cold winter day so its useful for something.

And even more die of old age too ! :lol:

 

[OpportunityCost]

And easy access to guns makes that crime so much more likely to be letha

And knives and crowbars and baseball bats and....

And a much higher number of shootings per capita

You are again having a derp moment, of course their shootings are higher. Their citizens are able to defend themselves AND their overall crime rate is lower. Which means gun ownership is not causation for crime in Switzerland.

And even more die of old age too ! :lol:

I'm sure a lot die of stupidity, which is awfully similar to a country disarming its citizens to curb crime without a decrease in the overall crime rate.

 

[flogger]

And knives and crowbars and baseball bats and....

We have those so why isn't our murder rate like yours ?

You are again having a derp moment, of course their shootings are higher. Their citizens are able to defend themselves AND their overall crime rate is lower. Which means gun ownership is not causation for crime in Switzerland.

But it is the causation for most of what murder there is there

I'm sure a lot die of stupidity, which is awfully similar to a country disarming its citizens to curb crime without a decrease in the overall crime rate.

So how did Australia and the UK manage do it ? Both nations have seen drops in crime across the board with dramatic falls in gun crime in particular over the last two decades

 

[OpportunityCost]

We have those so why isn't our murder rate like yours ?

Why is your crime rate higher?

But it is the causation for most of what murder there is there

Yet their murder rate is lower than yours. Which argument do you want to abandon?

So how did Australia and the UK manage do it ? Both nations have seen drops in crime across the board with dramatic falls in gun crime in particular over the last two decades

Australia's crime rate is nearly identical to what it was before the gun ban. If all you did was disarm citizens, you didn't accomplish anything.

Its funny, the US crime rate dropped as well. Increased policing and better policing methods might have some clues...

 

[flogger]

Why is your crime rate higher?

It isn't as you have already been shown. Why not just answer my question ? :waiting:

Yet their murder rate is lower than yours. Which argument do you want to abandon?

Switzerland has a far higher living standard what more can I say

Australia's crime rate is nearly identical to what it was before the gun ban. If all you did was disarm citizens, you didn't accomplish anything.

Well Australia achieved an 80% reduction in gun deaths and no more massacres but then I guess their society really cares about stuff like that :roll:

Its funny, the US crime rate dropped as well. Increased policing and better policing methods might have some clues...

Yet the number dying by gunfire has been steadily increasing since the turn of the century

 

[OpportunityCost]

It isn't as you have already been shown. Why not just answer my question ? :waiting:

Switzerland has a far higher living standard what more can I say

Actually you have shown that by picking and choosing specific crimes out the UK is better in some respects. The overall UK crime rate is HIGHER.

Well Australia achieved an 80% reduction in gun deaths and no more massacres but then I guess their society really cares about stuff like that :roll:

Meanwhile, their crime rate has not gone down, it is essentially the same, their people are without self defense from crime. You call that better? You are concerned about it you toss an emoji. Fake emotional content noted.

Yet the number dying by gunfire has been steadily increasing since the turn of the century

Nope.

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware | Pew Research Center

 

[Crimefree]

First, it doesn't take a "massive level of investment". It would take a few thousand dollars to equip, a few tens of thousands of dollars - and a year or three - to train...and he could acquire the equipment and the training here in America LEGALLY...just as the 9/11 hijackers acquired their training in how to fly a plane here in America legally.

So WTF is your point. Why do gun control advocates waste so much time explaining their mind movie (fear) and never actually make a point.

All one really has to do is figure how to get up close and use the money to get that information. There are a thousand ways and the best one can do is make it "difficult" not impossible, "difficult" to assassinate anyone.

Do not be economical with facts and truth. One supposed "claimed" assassin took a few lessons on light single engine aircraft. You do the same and then get into a Boeing let us see how well you do. People who repeat unchecked garbage should have padlocked lips and restrained hands.
Trying to keep guns out of such rare events hands is just idiotic. Akin to banning alcohol to stop drunkenness. IDIOTIC.

You're saying that the assassin would never be able to take out the president from a mile away...but you're forgetting about campaign stops, speeches in various states...given the motivation and a bit of money, yeah, it most certainly can be done. And it doesn't take a great deal of intel, either - or haven't you noticed that the media gives up to a 24-hr notice about when and where the president's going to arrive, and where he's going? They've done so more than once, letting us know when Air Force One was arriving at Boeing Field...and you know better than I just how many platforms one could use within a one-mile radius. Even then it wouldn't be a sure thing...but the possibility would be very, very real.

A mile shot is a very risky shot under the best of circumstances and you will probably only get one shot. No terrorist is going to want those odd of success. Where do you get this fear fill stuff from?

I've long said that we've been very fortunate that the great majority of terrorists are stupid and/or ignorant...because if they really had half a clue about how to cause real chaos in America, it's very, very easy. Just look at the several times we've had "snipers" shooting people driving along the freeway - and in every case it's been some domestic idiots. Just think of what one determined, intelligent, and well-trained guy could do with a good sniper rifle, when it comes to much more damaging targets than autos on a freeway.

Your fear driven mind movie is not even interesting. Terrorists are not stupid if they were no events would ever occur. Where do you guys get you fear filled ideas from? Is there a gun control cesspit one can dredge for such stuff?

You obviously have no idea why schools are chosen and used so often thanks to gun control advocates. Nor why terrorists choose their targets and place.

Try facts they are so much better and there is nothing like the truth.

 

[flogger]

Actually you have shown that by picking and choosing specific crimes out the UK is better in some respects. The overall UK crime rate is HIGHER.

No I have shown in nearly all the categories that the US is higher and considerably so in the more serious ones

Meanwhile, their crime rate has not gone down, it is essentially the same, their people are without self defense from crime. You call that better? You are concerned about it you toss an emoji. Fake emotional content noted.

Well you better take that up with our ONS given you must have the inside track on something they don't know :wink: They show our overall recorded crime rate is some 60% lower than it was 20 years ago. This is also reflected in our declining police numbers

Nope.

Yup gun deaths have risen steadily since the turn of the century just like I said



Conservative Media Misread Data To Declare Gun Violence Epidemic Over

, the rate of serious gunshot wounds -- those that require hospitalization -- increased by nearly half between 2001 and 2011. The fact that more gunshot victims are surviving their wounds is hardly evidence for the conservative media's support of weaker gun laws. C. William Schwab, director of the Firearm and Injury Center at the University of Pennsylvania, told The Wall Street Journal that medical advances explained why "we are saving many more people we didn't save even 10 years ago:"

 

[OpportunityCost]

No I have shown in nearly all the categories that the US is higher and considerably so in the more serious ones

Except the main one, which is the overall crime rate. In which the UK is higher.

Well you better take that up with our ONS given you must have the inside track on something they don't know :wink: They show our overall recorded crime rate is some 60% lower than it was 20 years ago. This is also reflected in our declining police numbers

I genuinely wish you would stay with one country. I was referring to Australia which is at the same crime levels they were pre-ban. UK numbers have decreased, US numbers also declined by similar amounts, which leads me to a conclusion that policing methodology has gotten better.

Yup gun deaths have risen steadily since the turn of the century just like I said

View attachment 67200075

Conservative Media Misread Data To Declare Gun Violence Epidemic Over

, the rate of serious gunshot wounds -- those that require hospitalization -- increased by nearly half between 2001 and 2011. The fact that more gunshot victims are surviving their wounds is hardly evidence for the conservative media's support of weaker gun laws. C. William Schwab, director of the Firearm and Injury Center at the University of Pennsylvania, told The Wall Street Journal that medical advances explained why "we are saving many more people we didn't save even 10 years ago:"

BWAHAHAHAHA you used media matters. Please find me a source that isn't blatantly biased. I mean, I used Pew Research for gods sake.

 

[flogger]

Except the main one, which is the overall crime rate. In which the UK is higher.

Which is nonsense as you have been repeatedly shown

While it becomes clear that certain types of offenses are marginally higher in the UK than in the US (robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively) a number of other, more serious offenses, are both marginally and substantially higher in the US. Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US. However, it is at the considerably more, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.

I genuinely wish you would stay with one country. I was referring to Australia which is at the same crime levels they were pre-ban. UK numbers have decreased, US numbers also declined by similar amounts, which leads me to a conclusion that policing methodology has gotten better.

Or that medical advances are now saving more of your people than they once did

BWAHAHAHAHA you used media matters. Please find me a source that isn't blatantly biased. I mean, I used Pew Research for gods sake

Your gun death rate is steadily rising and theres no getting away from those figures. You lose around 4,500 more per annum now than you did in 2000 despite medical advances made during that period that are undoubtedly saving many more lives today than they did then.

 

[Crimefree]

Which is nonsense as you have been repeatedly shown

While it becomes clear that certain types of offenses are marginally higher in the UK than in the US (robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively) a number of other, more serious offenses, are both marginally and substantially higher in the US. Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US. However, it is at the considerably more, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.

You have posted this crap before and it was shot down. Nor have you explained why there is a 15 year delay and how a gun ban managed to do this and not the increase of policing. You have been shown cross-country comparisons are false (Kopel) and failed to explain the example of Japan and Switzerland.

Or that medical advances are now saving more of your people than they once did

Irrelevant emotional crap, non sequitur.

Your gun death rate is steadily rising and theres no getting away from those figures. You lose around 4,500 more per annum now than you did in 2000 despite medical advances made during that period that are undoubtedly saving many more lives today than they did then.

Your cherry picking deceitful use of gun anything has been explained to you a number of times yet you continue to use this in a deliberate attempt to skew figures in order to annoy and trivialise others factual claims.