Why building codes should be abolished

[Gordy327]

And who is there to verify any of it? He doesnt recognize any authorities to do so. Libertarianism does not allow "authorities" with any actual "authority".

Sounds more like anarchy to me.

 

[Airyaman]

Us without codes and regulations:

 

[Lord of Planar]

Do you have examples of what you find to be unnecessary in any building codes? I hate those damn afci breakers too, but other than that, can't think of anything too unreasonable...

An AFCI breaker is one of those things necessary. I am ignorant to the specifics power levels, but any time you come off of a large transformer like the drop from the power lines to your home, an arch-flash if it occurs can have the explosive power of a stick of dynamite.

I don't know building codes well enough to say a particular code can be done away with. They generally do have a reason we might not be aware of.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Building codes represent nothing but the personal preferences of the people who write them, based on subjective values rather than objective principles. There is no one right answer, it's all about trade-offs.

For example, suppose the building code in your climate mandates R20 for wall insulation. This number is not based on any objective scientific principle. Generally, the more you spend now on insulation and air-sealing, the lower your fuel bills will be later. But allocating more upfront for insulation means sacrificing resources that could have been used elsewhere. There are no free lunches, only trade-offs. Ultimately, the decision comes down to the values of the person making it.

You say, "But R20 is reasonable." No it isn't. Reasonable means based on reason, and there is no reason why R20 would be the ideal standard for millions of different homeowners, all with unique preferences and circumstances. Homeowners who would naturally choose R20 on their own are no better off for being forced to comply. Meanwhile, those who would prefer a different approach are made worse off. What justifies the state overriding their choices? The argument that it’s for the "common good" doesn't work when the primary beneficiaries of such mandates are insulation manufacturers—not homeowners.

Although this example focuses on insulation, the same reasoning applies to every aspect of home construction. Since building codes make no homeowners better off, and make millions of homeowners worse off, they should be abolished.

They make lots of homeowners better off.

Homebuyers in the US can do a walk through with an agent and think about whether the home meets their needs from a consumer standpoint in terms of space and layout, etc, without having to become experts in dozens of different fields from structural engineering to electrical engineering themselves just to figure out whether the place is a deathtrap or not.

But it's entirely subjective. Why should the state override the homeowner regarding a completely subjective issue, when both the property and the money to build the home belong to the individual and not the state?

If the state owns the sovereignty rights to the property, then the state absolutely has the right to tell homeowners that they can't use asbestos for insulation, power their home with a DIY nuclear reactor, or murder any guests that they have over. If you want sovereignty rights to your home, you have to purchase sovereignty rights to your home.

There are different rights and limitations when you make various real estate purchases. Sometimes you will have surface rights to the land but not mineral rights, or vice versa. Sometimes there will be an easement where someone else owns the right to traverse that land on their way to somewhere else. Some purchases come with liens from HOA, road associations, etc. You should learn what rights exactly you are purchasing and what you are not purchasing when you buy property.

If purchasing property that the US holds sovereignty rights over is not acceptable to you, you always have the option of not buying land in the US.

 

[Peter]

More libertarian nonsense. They need to go live on a desert island all by themselves and then they could make all sorts of silly rules like this one.

I'm surprised some haven't already done so as there are islands for sale and they can live a life free of pesky government.
They can have zero building codes or any regulations at all if they want and see if the paradise they expect comes true.

 

[Peter]

We had to get planning permission to have an extension built on our house and people could object.

Planning rules are needed if you want houses to have standards and not let horrible structures ruin neighbourhoods.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I'm surprised some haven't already done so as there are islands for sale and they can live a life free of pesky government.
They can have zero building codes or any regulations at all if they want and see if the paradise they expect comes true.

That experiment has already taken place, it's called Galt's Gulch Chile. The results were pretty much what one would expect.

I'm surprised @aociswundumho doesn't just move there, where he can finally be free of all this draconian government protection that is apparently cramping his style.

 

[Peter]

That experiment has already taken place, it's called Galt's Gulch Chile. The results were pretty much what one would expect.

I'm surprised @aociswundumho doesn't just move there, where he can finally be free of all this draconian government protection that is apparently cramping his style.

I bet it's absolutely wonderful.
No goverment to tell you what is not allowed so the rich can just set up their own little kingdoms and as they all just travel by private helicopter they don't need public roads so why bother?

 

[Mr Person]

Big-L Libetarianism is so stupid that you couldn't possibly get a believer to understand why.

 

[aociswundumho]

They make lots of homeowners better off.

Forcing people to pay for things they don't want does not make them better off.

 

[Safiel]

Do you have examples of what you find to be unnecessary in any building codes? I hate those damn afci breakers too, but other than that, can't think of anything too unreasonable...

AFCI became mandatory in 2023 in North Carolina, including for dedicated refrigerator connections.

One of the few complaints I get.

I have to tell the people, there WILL be an AFCI breaker, including for the refrigerator. The final inspection and the paperwork will state that all the AFCI's were in place at delivery, so if the customer swaps out the AFCI for a regular breaker and there is later a fire, we have documentation that the house was delivered with AFCI breakers.

In any event, most modern refrigerators do just fine on AFCI, it is usually older refrigerators that are the problem. And of course, the houses are delivered with brand new state of the art refrigerators.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Forcing people to pay for things they don't want does not make them better off.

This is most often true. However, even Libertarians recognize exceptions are needed. To deny such exceptions, makes one an Anarchist rather than libertarian.

A house is something that is most often is sold to someone else. Even with full disclosure of what is and is not to what you want as a recommended code, rather then one enforced by regulation, allows for someone to become a victim of ignorance. Now I agree that ignorance should be no defense, but when you start getting into such high levels of costs or possible danger, there is a practical line that government should step in.

Being a libertarian does not mean being against reasonable regulations. It means being against unnecessary regulations.

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

Random thought on the topic..

How's this for a recent electric code change. Used to have to have at least one outlet on a kitchen island per footage, only so many inches down, and only so many inches under overhang.

Well, your toddler could grab that crockpot cord and drag it right off.. Sure it's happened.

New code!! Must be a pop up outlet on surface of your new granite(only like 200 bucks), or there must be a 'wall' (raised side to allow an outlet above counter without a cord going over side). Everyone wants some stupid wall on the end of their high dollar island or an outlet in their granite.

If neither, their must be a 'provision'(wire junctioned off in cabinet for the future side of cabinet outlet to be installed after inspector leaves.....).

Just solved the issue!

As inspector and I chatted about it, it was "it met code for the few minutes I was here."

Can I compare notes on the NEC board and share holders in pop up outlets?

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

AFCI became mandatory in 2023 in North Carolina, including for dedicated refrigerator connections.

One of the few complaints I get.

I have to tell the people, there WILL be an AFCI breaker, including for the refrigerator. The final inspection and the paperwork will state that all the AFCI's were in place at delivery, so if the customer swaps out the AFCI for a regular breaker and there is later a fire, we have documentation that the house was delivered with AFCI breakers.

In any event, most modern refrigerators do just fine on AFCI, it is usually older refrigerators that are the problem. And of course, the houses are delivered with brand new state of the art refrigerators.

Just in 2023? Bedroom requirement here long ago, and throughout for years.

$65+/- breaker. Of course it's 'code'. With all those old knob and tube homes that haven't burned down yet. Money...

 

[Peter]

Big-L Libetarianism is so stupid that you couldn't possibly get a believer to understand why.

The problem i have is it only takes a few seconds of actual though to see giant problems with the libertarian ideals.

Government isn't perfect but compared to the alternative it's amazing.

 

[RF667799]

Random thought on the topic..

How's this for a recent electric code change. Used to have to have at least one outlet on a kitchen island per footage, only so many inches down, and only so many inches under overhang.

Well, your toddler could grab that crockpot cord and drag it right off.. Sure it's happened.

New code!! Must be a pop up outlet on surface of your new granite(only like 200 bucks), or there must be a 'wall' (raised side to allow an outlet above counter without a cord going over side). Everyone wants some stupid wall on the end of their high dollar island or an outlet in their granite.

If neither, their must be a 'provision'(wire junctioned off in cabinet for the future side of cabinet outlet to be installed after inspector leaves.....).

Just solved the issue!

As inspector and I chatted about it, it was "it met code for the few minutes I was here."

Can I compare notes on the NEC board and share holders in pop up outlets?

Come on now. Every new addition...every new idea, is a GOOD idea. Given directly by the Good Idea Fairy hitting some mere mortal with her Magic Good Idea Wand.

A building code is such a small hill...but it has potential to grow, and grow it will. Organically.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Come on now. Every new addition...every new idea, is a GOOD idea. Given directly by the Good Idea Fairy hitting some mere mortal with her Magic Good Idea Wand.

A building code is such a small hill...but it has potential to grow, and grow it will. Organically.

Agreed. there are added costs to the build, but it is small considering other costs.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Building codes represent nothing but the personal preferences of the people who write them, based on subjective values rather than objective principles. There is no one right answer, it's all about trade-offs.

For example, suppose the building code in your climate mandates R20 for wall insulation. This number is not based on any objective scientific principle. Generally, the more you spend now on insulation and air-sealing, the lower your fuel bills will be later. But allocating more upfront for insulation means sacrificing resources that could have been used elsewhere. There are no free lunches, only trade-offs. Ultimately, the decision comes down to the values of the person making it.

You say, "But R20 is reasonable." No it isn't. Reasonable means based on reason, and there is no reason why R20 would be the ideal standard for millions of different homeowners, all with unique preferences and circumstances. Homeowners who would naturally choose R20 on their own are no better off for being forced to comply. Meanwhile, those who would prefer a different approach are made worse off. What justifies the state overriding their choices? The argument that it’s for the "common good" doesn't work when the primary beneficiaries of such mandates are insulation manufacturers—not homeowners.

Although this example focuses on insulation, the same reasoning applies to every aspect of home construction. Since building codes make no homeowners better off, and make millions of homeowners worse off, they should be abolished.

 

[rahl]

Forcing people to pay for things they don't want does not make them better off.

Of course it does.

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

Agreed. there are added costs to the build, but it is small considering other costs.

For years I've been putting 1500 worth of breakers in a 200 dollar panel to find bad breakers or its a 'nuisance trip. Rare though.
All on the circuit checks out..
Only takes a milliamp imbalance to cause a trip.

 

[aociswundumho]

A house is something that is most often is sold to someone else.

Literally millions of homes are sold each year that wouldn't even come close to meeting the latest building codes.

Being a libertarian does not mean being against reasonable regulations.

Answered in the OP:

You say, "But R20 is reasonable." No it isn't. Reasonable means based on reason, and there is no reason why R20 would be the ideal standard for millions of different homeowners, all with unique preferences and circumstances. Homeowners who would naturally choose R20 on their own are no better off for being forced to comply. Meanwhile, those who would prefer a different approach are made worse off. What justifies the state overriding their choices? The argument that it’s for the "common good" doesn't work when the primary beneficiaries of such mandates are insulation manufacturers—not homeowners.

It's all about trade-offs. None of it is 'reasonable'; it's simply a reflection of the personal preferences of those who write the code books. But why should their preferences take precedence over those of the homeowner?

 

[RF667799]

Agreed. there are added costs to the build, but it is small considering other costs.

It's more than the difference between the cost of a 2x6 and a 2x8 though. It's all the admin costs that go along with regulating and enforcing those things.

And the contractor's percentage on top of that.

 

[rahl]

Literally millions of homes are sold each year that wouldn't even come close to meeting the latest building codes.

Prove it

It's all about trade-offs. None of it is 'reasonable'; it's simply a reflection of the personal preferences of those who write the code books.

Asbestos regulations srent reasonable?

But why should their preferences take precedence over those of the homeowner?

Safety

 

[RF667799]

Prove it

Asbestos regulations srent reasonable?

Safety

Those who advocate banning guns do so in the name of safety.

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

Literally millions of homes are sold each year that wouldn't even come close to meeting the latest building codes.

Getting into the territory of 'as is', "home inspector" findings(online class..? ), and realtor addendum.

I've done many corrections for realtors over the years. Once I dug in there, I found many things the 'home inspector' missed that were real concerns other than "missing cover plate at attic junction box".

The mice don't give a shit about whether the wire is in a box or not.

Answered in the OP:



It's all about trade-offs. None of it is 'reasonable'; it's simply a reflection of the personal preferences of those who write the code books. But why should their preferences take precedence over those of the homeowner?