Why building codes should be abolished

[Chock Full o Nuts]

While we are at it get rid of licencing for electricians and plumbers , what can go wrong

While I'm all for building codes, licensing is a joke to a certain extent. But people are getting paid..

Been at electric for almost 30 years. No residential requirement yet in Ohio, just commercial. But plumbing and HVAC must carry license for anything.

The person from the big local electric company that comes to your house is almost guaranteed to not hold a license, they are just working under the company's license, and the 'boss' isn't checking their work.

And the inspector pretty well takes a quick look and gigs anything obvious. Your connections and such,?.. nope.

I'm in the middle of a big office building remodel that contractor and owner was trying to fly under the radar, but got caught.
(Fire Marshall just happened to stop by for scheduled check.)

Building inspector was there to shut it down that day. I had told them I didn't really care to get wrapped up in it, but they talked me into it. Well... and money..

Got one of the big local companies to get involved for permitting, prints and such for a fee. I'm still in here doing the work and will be meeting inspector. I don't even work for them!

No one gives a shit as long as someone has paid money to the necessary places. State licensing board, inspection bureau,..

Hell, I have to pay 150 bucks a year to the city to be able to file a permit with the privately owned inspection bureau for work within city limits. Other than taking my money, they don't have shit to do with a thing.

 

[dockside]

Hogwash. Standards are a good thing and they protect the consumer in many ways. Lower standards result in disasters for poor construction.

In 2001 our area suffered a 6.8 earthquake. Our home was built for us in 1999 and the building code our contractor had to follow had more stringent requirements for withstanding damage in an earthquake.
We were not home at the time and when we returned we had one plate on display on our counter laying on the counter and one box in our garage which was leaning against an inner wall on the garage floor. That was it. BUT, many houses in our neighborhood, built ten or 15 years earlier before the more stringent requirements were in effect, suffered considerable damage, one even moved slightly off its foundation.

And, don't tell me that contractors would automatically build to the stronger requirements if they didn't have to. And why should people who are having the houses built have to inform themselves of all the things that are done in building a house in order to protect themselves? And, what about spec homes?

Your post is idiotic and totally not thought out. Come join us in the real world.

 

[NatMorton]

So substandard wiring in an existing home is fine because it will cost the homeowner's too much money to upgrade it?

Yes. It's only fair as it was not "substandard" at the time the house was built. If we imposed certain codes retroactively many people would have to sell their homes since not everyone has five or six figure savings on-hand pay for such projects. Grandfathering is a reasonable compromise.

Here's a page about fires caused by electrical malfunctions:

View attachment 67547079

Earlier, you argued that the government's role is to protect citizens from precisely this kind of danger. Now, you're suggesting that saving the homeowner money is more important.

No, I'm suggesting reasonable compromise between safety and practicality.

As I clearly stated in the OP, it comes down to trade-offs - there isn't one right answer for everyone.

It also comes down to democracy, and these codes exist because we elect officials to enact and enforce them.

 

[Minerva]

No, I'm talking about private inspectors who work for the buyer.

Now there is a real clueless statement if there ever was one.

People are bribed all the time to look the other way on things they should be reporting.

Can we at least keep the arguments grounded in some sort of reality?

If not, I'm out of here.

 

[NolanVoyd]

No. They would be homeless.

Read my post again.

 

[Lisa]

They wouldn't.

Then there is no point for them to exist if they arent enforced.

No, I'm talking about private inspectors who work for the buyer.

Cash is still green, even if it is the seller that is offering, so the inspection clears.

Over half of the nation's housing stock is over 50 years old, and I can assure you, a typical 50 year old home has all kinds of electrical problems.

I am very aware of that, but its no reason to drop the code. Those homes need to be updated. I lived in one that cost $15K to update. We already have too many homes that are not safe to live in. Your idea would create many more.

Do you support forcing all homeowners in the country to update their electrical systems to be in compliance with the 2024 NEC?

They need to update when new work is performed. Its much cheaper than a fire.

 

[Airyaman]

Building codes are written by private organizations.



I have no problem with standards, as long as they are voluntary.

Voluntary? Wtf? So a builder can put together a stretch of shoddily constructed homes because the standards for building are voluntary?

No f'ing way man.

 

[NatMorton]

Just a reminder of what can happen when building codes are not followed. Recall the The Champlain Towers South condominium in Surfside, Florida, which collapsed in 2021, killing 98 people, and was later found to not have complied with code when it was built in the early 80s:



Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse

 

[aociswundumho]

No, I'm suggesting reasonable compromise between safety and practicality.

It's not reasonable, because it's not based on reason. Where you choose to land on the safety/cost continuum is entirely subjective, and will be different for each person.

Are you an individualist or a collectivist?

It also comes down to democracy,

You got that right. Excuse me while I go vomit.

 

[Lisa]

Voluntary? Wtf? So a builder can put together a stretch of shoddily constructed homes because the standards for building are voluntary?

No f'ing way man.

Fire and EMS would refuse to enter the home because its not safe for them.

Whole neighborhoods burn or collapse in storms because they are built with Elmers glue and cardboard.

 

[NatMorton]

It's not reasonable, because it's not based on reason. Where you choose to land on the safety/cost continuum is entirely subjective, and will be different for each person.

It's entirely reasonable. We balance safety, cost, and risk all the time. We could probably save 50,000 people a year if we decided to enforce a 10 MPH speed limit on all roads and highways, yet we don't and we enforce higher speed limits.

Are you an individualist or a collectivist?

Do you collect fees on false choices by commision or collect a weekly salary?

You got that right. Excuse me while I go vomit.

Unhappy with the outcome of democracy? How positively Progressive of you.

 

[Hari Seldon]

They wouldn't.



No, I'm talking about private inspectors who work for the buyer.



Over half of the nation's housing stock is over 50 years old, and I can assure you, a typical 50 year old home has all kinds of electrical problems.

Do you support forcing all homeowners in the country to update their electrical systems to be in compliance with the 2024 NEC?

I support building codes and standards. When they were built there were standards at the time. If upgrades are made it should be brought up to current code. Our village is currently checking on lead pipes. Apparently lead in the drinking water isn't very healthy.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Hogwash. Standards are a good thing and they protect the consumer in many ways. Lower standards result in disasters for poor construction.

Not to mention, no insurance company will sell you insurance if your home or business is not up to building codes.

 

[Minerva]

Do you support forcing all homeowners in the country to update their electrical systems to be in compliance with the 2024 NEC?

This has already been answered.
If a remodel is being done that is above a certain percentage of the electrical service, it must be brought up to date.

In my area during the 60's, when large window AC's were being installed in older homes, the addition of the 220 vac circuits for the window unit often triggered the need to replace the electrical panel. This got rid of a lot of the knob and tube electrical wiring that was done prior to about 1930.

I have bounced around in attics that still used the K&T stuff, lots of fun.

 

[aociswundumho]

Then there is no point for them to exist if they arent enforced.

If I recall correctly, you're in the tech industry in some capacity? Apologies if I am misremembering.

Your industry is filled with voluntary standards. There are USB standards, wi-fi standards, bluetooth standards, ethernet standards, unicode, sql, html, etc, all of them voluntary.

 

[Lisa]

If I recall correctly, you're in the tech industry in some capacity? Apologies if I am misremembering.

Im not in tech. I'm an engineer who actually worked as an architectural designer for a few years 2000-07. Your ideas are absurd.

Your industry is filled with voluntary standards. There are USB standards, wi-fi standards, bluetooth standards, ethernet standards, unicode, sql, html, etc, all of them voluntary.

Those standards are for compatibility. They all have to meet electrical safety standards.

 

[dockside]

Just a reminder of what can happen when building codes are not followed. Recall the The Champlain Towers South condominium in Surfside, Florida, which collapsed in 2021, killing 98 people, and was later found to not have complied with code when it was built in the early 80s:

View attachment 67547085

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse

Just a reminder of what can happen when building codes are not followed. Recall the The Champlain Towers South condominium in Surfside, Florida, which collapsed in 2021, killing 98 people, and was later found to not have complied with code when it was built in the early 80s:

View attachment 67547085

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfside_condominium_collapse

It appears you are saying that since some contractors are crooks and don't follow the rules, we shouldn't have any rules? Would we then have fewer or more deaths like the above? And, since fraud is illegal, and lowlifes still defraud people, we shouldn't have laws against fraud? What about murder. Stop making it illegal and people will be better off? Only the crooks, in all the above scenarios. The rest of us (the majority) will suffer, however.

 

[MAGAnificent]

This has already been answered.
If a remodel is being done that is above a certain percentage of the electrical service, it must be brought up to date.

In my area during the 60's, when large window AC's were being installed in older homes, the addition of the 220 vac circuits for the window unit often triggered the need to replace the electrical panel. This got rid of a lot of the knob and tube electrical wiring that was done prior to about 1930.

I have bounced around in attics that still used the K&T stuff, lots of fun.

Even now many of us with older homes are finding out we have to upgrade the panel and service to add certain appliances. Most new homes are now as a rule set up with 200 amp service. I had to upgrade just to install a tankless water heater.

 

[Lisa]

Even now many of us with older homes are finding out we have to upgrade the panel and service to add certain appliances. Most new homes are now as a rule set up with 200 amp service. I had to upgrade just to install a tankless water heater.

Ive lived in two homes that were originally built with knob and tube wiring. Those weren't cheap upgrades.

Lead pipes as well.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Over half of the nation's housing stock is over 50 years old. Do all of you support forcing these homeowners to upgrade their "unsafe" homes to comply with the current building code?

Older homes are not required to update to current codes unless there is a renovation. Then the remodeled portion of the home would have to be brought up to code but not the entire home.

 

[Safiel]

For the last several years, I have built custom homes in my area of North Carolina, plus adjoining sections of Virginia. Thankfully, there are plenty of excellent subcontractors.

But even with the good companies, you can get bad or lazy individuals. In particular, you have to watch plumbers. Many have the philosophy of "It ain't structural if its in my way." So always suspicious of plumbers bearing saws.

And for every ethical builder like myself, there are probably at least two willing to take shortcuts, as numerous individuals have learned to their dismay.

Without building codes, you would have dumbasses using asbestos as insulation, etc. Using aluminum for wiring. Lead for pipes.

Sorry, too many individuals won't stay on the straight and narrow and unless the government takes action to make them do so.

I support abolition of some aspects of government. But buildings codes are a core and needed function.

 

[aociswundumho]

Older homes are not required to update to current codes unless there is a renovation.

Right, so it's not a problem for people to live in homes with substandard wiring, an unvented plumbing system, and undersized framing members.

That's my point.

 

[Safiel]

As for older houses, just pure economics. I have demolished a number of older houses that were simply structurally unsound or beyond economic rehabilitation.

 

[Lursa]

Building codes represent nothing but the personal preferences of the people who write them, based on subjective values rather than objective principles. There is no one right answer, it's all about trade-offs.

For example, suppose the building code in your climate mandates R20 for wall insulation. This number is not based on any objective scientific principle. Generally, the more you spend now on insulation and air-sealing, the lower your fuel bills will be later. But allocating more upfront for insulation means sacrificing resources that could have been used elsewhere. There are no free lunches, only trade-offs. Ultimately, the decision comes down to the values of the person making it.

You say, "But R20 is reasonable." No it isn't. Reasonable means based on reason, and there is no reason why R20 would be the ideal standard for millions of different homeowners, all with unique preferences and circumstances. Homeowners who would naturally choose R20 on their own are no better off for being forced to comply. Meanwhile, those who would prefer a different approach are made worse off. What justifies the state overriding their choices? The argument that it’s for the "common good" doesn't work when the primary beneficiaries of such mandates are insulation manufacturers—not homeowners.

Although this example focuses on insulation, the same reasoning applies to every aspect of home construction. Since building codes make no homeowners better off, and make millions of homeowners worse off, they should be abolished.

The bold is wrong from the git-go. The label R20 is specific to insulation with specific criteria for its purpose. Others would have criteria meeting different climate and humidity parameters. There are choices that builders (private or commercial) have...they can choose a higher level of insulation to be prepared for predicted coming colder winters, for ex. but that knowledge is based on the criteria listed for those different R-products.

Creating effective products to act as "insulation" and "air-sealants", from your example, are indeed based on scientific principles.

 

[Lisa]

Right, so it's not a problem for people to live in homes with substandard wiring, an unvented plumbing system, and undersized framing members.

That's my point.

Your ideas would make the problem worse, instead of solving it.