Poor choice of emoticons. What is funny about this story?
Also, on the "Brain Dead is Really Dead" front:
Hospital fined after "brain dead" woman that they were prepping for organ harvest wakes up
I guess we should be unreasonably sceptical of all forms of death diagnoses then, rather than it being rare clinical error.
10 People Who Came Back From The Dead - Listverse
Are we clear that that list has nothing to do with accurate declaration of brain death? If proper protocols are used it is a very involved process. Declaration of death otherwise just requires no pulse no breathing no reflexes.
Poor choice of emoticons. What is funny about this story?
Also, on the "Brain Dead is Really Dead" front:
Hospital fined after "brain dead" woman that they were prepping for organ harvest wakes up
I usually get in trouble in this section but I'll give it another shot.
(CNN) -- A person who is brain dead may appear alive -- there may be a heartbeat, they may look like they're breathing, their skin may still be warm to the touch. But doctors say there is no life when brain activity ceases.
Why brain dead is really dead - CNN.com
I'm sure you've heard the story of the little girl from California who went in for minor tonsil surgery and due to complications was eventually declared "brain dead." A very sad event indeed but further complicating the tragedy is her parents don't seem to understand what brain dead means.
About 10 years ago a elderly family friend experienced a similar fate. A blood clot in his leg traveled through his body, lodged in his lungs and his wife found him passed out on the floor. He'd apparently gone about 20 minutes with no oxygen getting to his brain, was on a ventilator at the hospital and declared brain dead. He looked like he was sleeping and would even toss and turn a little but according to the doctors his brain had died and absent a miracle he could not regain consciousness. From a medical science perspective, respirators and feeding tubes only keep organs alive although the person is in all other respects deceased.
Its not a pleasant topic to discuss but Jahi McMath's passing, as tragic as it is, I think presents a teaching opportunity.
Again, this was a case that proper protocols were not followed - and not followed on a multitude of levels. They did not try to clear the drugs from her system. They did assure CNS depressents were cleansed from the body before declaration .Hell, they didn't even listen to the nurse who said she was improving. Is there any kind of assumption that McMath's declaration of brain death was outside of proper protocols?
One good thing can come of the McMath case. With all of the media scrutiny, I will bet that hospitals are looking over protocols and procedures for declaring brain death to assure dead is dead. No hospital wants that kind of media scrutiny.
Right, but in the McMath case her heart has continued to beat long past where it would normally stop for a person suffering brain death. The heart usually stops beating after 72 hours. Her's has been beating for a month. This would be an indication that the brain isn't actually dead and is at least continuing to send signal to the heart.
Some article I read on the subject pointed out that because she's young - most brain people are apparently much older - this is expected.
In any case the LA Times, I think it was, reported yesterday that her body is deteriorating rapidly.
Right, but in the McMath case her heart has continued to beat long past where it would normally stop for a person suffering brain death. The heart usually stops beating after 72 hours. Her's has been beating for a month. This would be an indication that the brain isn't actually dead and is at least continuing to send signal to the heart.
Twas sarcasm. Death can be misdiagnosed no matter how you do it.
Right, but in the McMath case her heart has continued to beat long past where it would normally stop for a person suffering brain death. The heart usually stops beating after 72 hours. Her's has been beating for a month. This would be an indication that the brain isn't actually dead and is at least continuing to send signal to the heart.
There is no hard and fast rule. I have seen this 72 hour thing popped out there....but really, no rule. It depends how she is supported. Are their any drugs involved, IVs, or just trach and feeding tube? When you think of declaration of brain death, McMath is not "typical". She was young. She had no major physical trauma to complicate her care. She may have been obese, but the long term affects of her obesity had not set in. A young relatively undiseased body. No comparison to perhaps a 60 year old man that was declared brain dead after a gunshot wound to the head.
There is no hard and fast rule. I have seen this 72 hour thing popped out there....but really, no rule. It depends how she is supported. Are their any drugs involved, IVs, or just trach and feeding tube? When you think of declaration of brain death, McMath is not "typical". She was young. She had no major physical trauma to complicate her care. She may have been obese, but the long term affects of her obesity had not set in. A young relatively undiseased body. No comparison to perhaps a 60 year old man that was declared brain dead after a gunshot wound to the head.
I usually get in trouble in this section but I'll give it another shot.
(CNN) -- A person who is brain dead may appear alive -- there may be a heartbeat, they may look like they're breathing, their skin may still be warm to the touch. But doctors say there is no life when brain activity ceases.
Why brain dead is really dead - CNN.com
I'm sure you've heard the story of the little girl from California who went in for minor tonsil surgery and due to complications was eventually declared "brain dead." A very sad event indeed but further complicating the tragedy is her parents don't seem to understand what brain dead means.
About 10 years ago a elderly family friend experienced a similar fate. A blood clot in his leg traveled through his body, lodged in his lungs and his wife found him passed out on the floor. He'd apparently gone about 20 minutes with no oxygen getting to his brain, was on a ventilator at the hospital and declared brain dead. He looked like he was sleeping and would even toss and turn a little but according to the doctors his brain had died and absent a miracle he could not regain consciousness. From a medical science perspective, respirators and feeding tubes only keep organs alive although the person is in all other respects deceased.
Its not a pleasant topic to discuss but Jahi McMath's passing, as tragic as it is, I think presents a teaching opportunity.
It is very ethically complicated, however I've run across articles and other references of faulty reads on EKG machines, which would happen if there was very minimal brain activity that the machine wouldn't pick up. The little girl probably is dead unfortunately but I would always worry about finishing it during a faulty read. I think the family really should be the ones to make that decision, but am not opposed to medical professionals gently discussing the situation with them to get to the proper decision. From what I've seen in this case the family has endured some bullying about their decision to keep her on the ventilator which to me is unacceptable, they are grieving and should be treated with the utmost respect and care at this time.Some families will never do it, in the mean time a veggie is costing thousands and thousands of dollars a day. It is a horribly sad situation, and its very ethically complicated. Some stuff is just more important than PR. It aint really good for the family pretending the patitent is still alive either, situations like this are all bad. they would terminally wean the patient and the patient may or may not breath on their own. I am bettting if declared brain dead she would not. Terrible situation.
My understanding is that there is a margin of error between low activity and no activity, the graph could show flat line even though there is a very minimal impulse emitted from the brain. I'm not a medical professional but just going on things I have run across.I'm not a doctor but I think they hook up electrodes to the patient's scalp and if the person is alive equipment can read brain waves even in a coma. If the person is dead no waves are emitted..I think.
What does it mean minimum impulse? Is a person alive only with minimum impulse? It is a tricky question I think.My understanding is that there is a margin of error between low activity and no activity, the graph could show flat line even though there is a very minimal impulse emitted from the brain. I'm not a medical professional but just going on things I have run across.
Well sure, but the problem is that the argument of "brain dead is really dead" doesn't account for bad diagnosis. The fact that the diagnosis could be wrong means that a brain dead diagnosis shouldn't be treated as really dead.
Or in other words, brain dead isn't really dead because brain dead isn't even necessarily brain dead.
Meaning there is some function in the brain but it's so miniscule that it would register as a flat line on monitoring equipment. So basically the brain may just need time to heal, kick start, etc. but taking them off the ventilator would be a death sentence. I don't blame a doctor for doing so after all testing though.What does it mean minimum impulse? Is a person alive only with minimum impulse? It is a tricky question I think.
Its possible to heal when it is so low? Truly I donno it.Meaning there is some function in the brain but it's so miniscule that it would register as a flat line on monitoring equipment. So basically the brain may just need time to heal, kick start, etc. but taking them off the ventilator would be a death sentence. I don't blame a doctor for doing so after all testing though.
I've read articles claiming it's possible but not probable over the years, wish I were in the habit of saving stuff I come across.Its possible to heal when it is so low? Truly I donno it.
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