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Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

CriticalThought

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.
 

EnigmaO01

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Why is he shoving this down out throats? It's because it's the only thing he has left. He's desperate. It makes him feel relevant to his base no matter how foolish he looks to the rest of us.

And don't forget it's a diversion from his own problems with the special counsel's investigation.
 
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Captain Adverse

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.

I'm on record as preferring strong immigration laws fully enforced without exception, defining birthright citizenship as pertaining only to babies born of legal residents, immediate deportation without legal recourse for anyone entering illegally, and a permanent ban on amnesties. Doing this would preclude any need for a wall.

However, whenever I see an argument against the wall that starts with "There is no evidence it will be effective" I have to laugh at this fallacious point.

The fact is we are literally surrounded by walls in our everyday lives, and they prove their effectiveness by preventing and/or channeling access to whatever space is being walled in.

Of course no wall is going to be 100% effective as a stand alone defense. If there is something inside worth it to someone breaking in for, then the wall/barrier will also need dedicated defenses.

In normal life it would be security guards, police, soldiers, automated systems, or in the case of a homeowner that person themselves.

So arguing that no wall is 100% effective is disingenuous. Walls work as they are designed to, and if well defended then they work even better.

As for why one would want a wall along the borderline? For the same reasons any wall has been built, to prevent anyone not allowed from entering the premises without permission.
 
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Xelor

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Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

...The folks who are doing so are having "Mae West" moments.

Too much of a good thing can be wonderful!
-- Mae West​


1-go-west-young-man-mae-west-1936-everett.jpg




MaeWest.jpg




For an entertaining diversion:
 

Mycroft

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.

Just because you say stupid stuff, doesn't make it true.

There is a lot of evidence that border walls are VERY effective.

National security is all the justification we need for it.

Actually, the fencing that currently exists isn't what Congress authorized a couple decades ago. It's a snow job that Congress foisted upon the American people. It was never meant to be effective.

But hey...you should be used to the government shoving stuff down your throat. What's the big deal?
 

Kal'Stang

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I'm against the wall as I think there would be more effective ways. But to say that a wall would be ineffective is naive at best. Israel has a wall that is quite effective. Lots of properties all across the US have walls and fences around their properties. Hell, even the richest among us use walls to keep people off their property. And areas where walls have been built have shown a sharp decline in illegal immigration. Will it stop all illegal immigration? Of course not. And no one is saying that it will. But it would help prevent the majority of illegals that enter through the southern border from entering. Once that is done then we can work on other ways of preventing illegal immigration. I'd prefer to do that first, but its not happening that way. In the end the goal is to secure our country. That is the Job of our Federal Government. It's time that they did that instead of listening to bleeding hearts that often use emotional arguments rather than logic.
 

EnigmaO01

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I'm against the wall as I think there would be more effective ways. But to say that a wall would be ineffective is naive at best. Israel has a wall that is quite effective. Lots of properties all across the US have walls and fences around their properties. Hell, even the richest among us use walls to keep people off their property. And areas where walls have been built have shown a sharp decline in illegal immigration. Will it stop all illegal immigration? Of course not. And no one is saying that it will. But it would help prevent the majority of illegals that enter through the southern border from entering. Once that is done then we can work on other ways of preventing illegal immigration. I'd prefer to do that first, but its not happening that way. In the end the goal is to secure our country. That is the Job of our Federal Government. It's time that they did that instead of listening to bleeding hearts that often use emotional arguments rather than logic.

Israel's wall is 440 miles. The U.S. Mexican border is 2500 miles, and the logistics, not to mention the cost are a nightmare. You can't compare the two.

Why don't we just fine the piss out of employers and jail them if they hire illegals? We could even make money from it! You know the KISS principal!
 

Hawkeye10

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Q: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

A: Trump was elected in part on the back of this promise, he carries with him a Mandate.
 

Amelia

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A border wall can be effective. A border wall can cause more problems.

How it is approached matters. If it is framed in xenophobic terms, in a way which makes people who are here legally feel like second class citizens, it could breed hopelessness and feed recruits to gangs who are already here. That is one example of how a bad approach can cause the kind of problem which the wall's promoters claim they want to prevent.
 

Amelia

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Q: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

A: Trump was elected in part on the back of this promise, he carries with him a Mandate.



His mandate is to make Mexico pay for the wall.

He promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pay for it. Now he is saying government will stay shut down until taxpayers pay for what he said we wouldn't have to pay for.

He has no mandate to blackmail us into doing what he promised we wouldn't have to do.
 

Pedestrian

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I'm on record as preferring strong immigration laws fully enforced without exception, defining birthright citizenship as pertaining only to babies born of legal residents, immediate deportation without legal recourse for anyone entering illegally, and a permanent ban on amnesties. Doing this would preclude any need for a wall.

However, whenever I see an argument against the wall that starts with "There is no evidence it will be effective" I have to laugh at this fallacious point.

The fact is we are literally surrounded by walls in our everyday lives, and they prove their effectiveness by preventing and/or channeling access to whatever space is being walled in.

Of course no wall is going to be 100% effective as a stand alone defense. If there is something inside worth it to someone breaking in for, then the wall/barrier will also need dedicated defenses.

In normal life it would be security guards, police, soldiers, automated systems, or in the case of a homeowner that person themselves.

So arguing that no wall is 100% effective is disingenuous. Walls work as they are designed to, and if well defended then they work even better.

As for why one would want a wall along the borderline? For the same reasons any wall has been built, to prevent anyone not allowed from entering the premises without permission.

Tijuana has a store with a pic showing a 32' ladder and one piece too. I think they will sell out.
 

Bullseye

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective.
Oh? What about the walls in Israel? They seem to work pretty good. You live surrounded by walls - anyone breaking in to your place?


CriticalThought said:
There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.
Sorry, I seriously doubt a coherent, rational, evidence based argument would make any difference to you because it's TRUMP proposing it. You don't care about logic or evidence or anything other than hate for Trump. I've challenged anti-wallers to provide an alternative to control illegal entry. So far: ::crickets:: We have fences or walls around military installations, we have walls around prisons, we have walls around rich liberal communities and seem to think THEY work, but a wall preventing illegal entry to our country and unnecessary deaths to children who have no choice and you guy get all gooey.
 

Hawkeye10

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A border wall can be effective. A border wall can cause more problems.

How it is approached matters. If it is framed in xenophobic terms, in a way which makes people who are here legally feel like second class citizens, it could breed hopelessness and feed recruits to gangs who are already here. That is one example of how a bad approach can cause the kind of problem which the wall's promoters claim they want to prevent.

People who we invited should not consider themselves to be or be like people we did not invite. If they do do that they should consider seeing a therapist.
 

Hawkeye10

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His mandate is to make Mexico pay for the wall.

He promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pay for it. Now he is saying government will stay shut down until taxpayers pay for what he said we wouldn't have to pay for.

He has no mandate to blackmail us into doing what he promised we wouldn't have to do.

You are over thinking this.
 

Pedestrian

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Israel's wall is 440 miles. The U.S. Mexican border is 2500 miles, and the logistics, not to mention the cost are a nightmare. You can't compare the two.

Why don't we just fine the piss out of employers and jail them if they hire illegals? We could even make money from it! You know the KISS principal!

Two good points and Israel had no eminent domain problems, they put it just where...they wanted it.

You have to know this is all a profit center, hiring illegals and the wall.

The capitalists run our govt. and will not stand for enforcing any laws...against them.
 

Mycroft

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Tijuana has a store with a pic showing a 32' ladder and one piece too. I think they will sell out.

All I can say is pregnant illegal aliens should stay away from 3 story ladders.
 

Amelia

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You are over thinking this.

No overthinking.

Simple logic to easily dispatch your claim that what he is doing is in keeping with a promise which he had a mandate to fulfill.



Logic is easy for some of us.
 

lurchadams

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.

It panders to his isolationist base. Some know that it really won't prevent the inflow of illegals but they like the fact that it's a giant "middle finger" to brown people.
 

Hawkeye10

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No overthinking.

Simple logic to easily dispatch your claim that what he is doing is in keeping with a promise which he had a mandate to fulfill.



Logic is easy for some of us.

Keeping his word on a promise that people clearly cared about and thus formed part of the foundation for why we voted for him, which created a mandate.

For instance Obama in 08 ran all over the country claiming that Washington needs reforming and that he was just the guy to lead the charge, thus we voted for him, handing him a mandate.






Then the Mother****er sat on his hands for 8 years.





BTW do you notice a trend here....first we sent Obama, then we sent Trump.

Who might be next I wonder.
 

Beaudreaux

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.

The answer to that question is simple: As Obama said, elections have consequences, and Trump was elected on (among other things) building the wall.

I didn't vote for him, and would love to see Trump out of office as quickly as possible... however, on the issue of a border barrier (wall, fence, etc.), I support its completion and augmenting it with tech and human resources. The Democrats will find out that they are on the wrong side of history on this one.
 

Kal'Stang

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Israel's wall is 440 miles. The U.S. Mexican border is 2500 miles, and the logistics, not to mention the cost are a nightmare. You can't compare the two.

Why don't we just fine the piss out of employers and jail them if they hire illegals? We could even make money from it! You know the KISS principal!

Unless you plan on fining people no matter what then simply fining employers is not going to work. Right now the only way an employer gets fined is if it can be proven that they knowingly hired an illegal. Which is the right thing to do since illegal aliens use illegal documents that the employer may not know is illegal but they do look legit. I'm all for increasing that fine. I have also advocated for prison time and loss of business license. But proven that they have knowingly hired an illegal alien is not as easy as it sounds. Unless you have documents/evidence or witnesses proving it then it's next to impossible.

But simply fining employers is not enough. Especially when you have sanctuary cities an states obstructing investigations by refusing to cooperate. A lot needs to be done to make it to where life in the US for a person here illegally is simply not worth it. Such work is going to take time. Lots of it. Especially with how partisan and greedy our politicians are. In the mean time, a wall will help.

In order to slow illegal immigration down to a trickle (with or without a wall) things are going to have to be done that many simply do not want to happen.

1: Birthright citizenship for those here illegally HAS to end. This can be done either through an amendment or through interpreting the 14th Amendment citizenship clause the way it was originally meant to be interpreted. Which is as applying only to those here legally and not of ambassadorial status. As the author of the 14th Amendment argued for. This can still be done as the Ark case was about someone who was born here while his parents were here legally. It never actually addressed those here illegally. No other country allows birth right citizenship for those illegally in their borders that I know of.

2: As you have already suggested, fine the hell out of employers that hire illegal aliens. Keep the "knowingly hired" bit though as an illegal using fake documents or stolen identities is not the employers fault. Additionally loss of business license, liquidation of business assets to pay for the fine, and prison time.

3: Institute mandatory e-verify for everything from employment, to buying a car, to getting a bank account, sending money another country, renting/buying a place to live, and getting a license to start/run a business.

4: Require every school to report any child that is not in the US legally and/or their parents/guardians. Being as SCOTUS ruled such a violation of the Constitution an amendment may be needed.

Do you see any of those as being easy to implement? Or not taking lots of time to implement? I sure don't. Which means in the mean time....a wall to help. A wall can eventually be torn down when it is no longer needed. But until such time as its not needed its better than what we currently have.
 
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Common Sense 1

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Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.

Just killed your post with this misstatement: "There is no evidence it will be effective." This is absolutely false!!
 

Grim17

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It panders to his isolationist base. Some know that it really won't prevent the inflow of illegals but they like the fact that it's a giant "middle finger" to brown people.

racecard.jpg
 

Amelia

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Keeping his word on a promise that people clearly cared about and thus formed part of the foundation for why we voted for him, which created a mandate.

....


Except he is not keeping his word. His word was that taxpayers would not have to pay for the wall. Now he is blackmailing our representatives, saying that government will stay shut down if our representatives do not take our money to pay for the wall.

That is the opposite of keeping his promise. That is the opposite of his mandate.
 

Amelia

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The answer to that question is simple: As Obama said, elections have consequences, and Trump was elected on (among other things) building the wall.

I didn't vote for him, and would love to see Trump out of office as quickly as possible... however, on the issue of a border barrier (wall, fence, etc.), I support its completion and augmenting it with tech and human resources. The Democrats will find out that they are on the wrong side of history on this one.


Trump was elected on saying the wall would be built but with a promise that taxpayers would not have to pay for it.

Now he is blackmailing us and saying that government will be shut down if we don't pay for the wall that he said we wouldn't have to pay for.
 
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