Why Allow Religion In Prisons? (1 Viewer)

[ElCid]

We all hear of the conversion to the Muslim faith as a concern of transferring Gitmo prisoners to our prisons. Can someone explain how religion is allowed to be spread in state and federal institutions.

Religion is one of the main themes of prison life. It fits in beautifully with the other streams of thought critical to rehabilitation -- redemption, forgiveness, rebirth, self-reform, self-overcoming, etc., etc. Religion in prison is an absolute must.

 

[Creative_Name10]

Religion should not be encouraged nor denied in government institutions. Prisoners have a right to worship in prison, though trying to convert inmates is unethical.

 

[Black Dog]

Religion should not be encouraged nor denied in government institutions. Prisoners have a right to worship in prison, though trying to convert inmates is unethical.

That would depend on who or what is doing the converting. If it is a prison official paid by the state, it would be very wrong, but it is not. It is other inmates and religious people who give the time freely to work with the prisoners.

 

[Goobieman]

Religion should not be encouraged nor denied in government institutions. Prisoners have a right to worship in prison, though trying to convert inmates is unethical.

How/why is it unethical for a prisoner to try to convert other prisoners?

 

[Oozlefinch]

I always thought Islam in prisons was a racial issue, with whites becoming white power believers and blacks becoming Muslims.

Are any non-blacks converting to Islam in prisons in any significant numbers? I kind of doubt it (although I'd love to see some statistics one way or the other, i have nothing to base my view on).

Actually, I knew several that have. When I did my little stint in LA County, there were 4 white Muslims, compared to 3 black Muslims. But none of them seemed particularly radical.

In fact, for 1 day we had a "Nation of Islam" believer. He was moved out the very next day, because he was causing problems and the black Muslims requested he be removed.

And not everybody in jail and prison joins the gangs. Some join and do not believe, they only do it for protection.

I was lucky, in that when I was locked up, I had long hair (mid back), and a long beard (mid chest). This was shortly after the Unabomber was arrested, and since I kept to myself and socialized with black and white prisoners alike, irreguardless of racial boundries, they decided to leave me alone.

But like foxholes, a lot of inmates discover religion. The only real question is how long they stay "believers" once they get out. From my experience, most quicly drop it and go back to the way they were before they were locked up.

 

[windovervocalcords]

It beats TV or weight lifting for one thing.

 

[liblady]

DING DING DING

We have a winner!

because prohibiting religion in prisons DOES prohibit free exercise, while schools and other places are only temporary situations. students are free to practice their religion elsewhere, prisoners are not.

 

[Sanitas]

Not true. It might be allowed in some schools, but definatly not in all schools. My own kids have been reprimanded for praying in school (citing federal law), and we live in the "Bible Belt".:censored

I agree that what you posted is how the law is supposed to be read.

Either way, I find it odd that we use the law to allow prisoners to worship freely and the use the same law to restrict "free" citizens.

I think everyone should be able to practice their religion, regardless of where they are or what the religion is. Preventing Muslim conversions would go against damn near everything in the Constitution.

Just curious - how can a school even tell if your children are having a conversation with God? When I was Christian, I always prayed to the Lord Himself, not verbally saying my prayer.

I find Islam in general, and radical Islam in particular, to be worrisome. I am not happy about the rate at which it is growing in the prison system.

Islam is a peaceful religion. The five pillars of Islam sound like a great way to get prisoners to smarten up.

I agree that the radicals are dangerous, however - especially in prisons.

Anyway they told me that alot of black men in prisons are drawn to Islam because they will get a "cool new name". Remember many criminals are not well educated and many suffer from mental issues. Once they are drawn into Islam it is then much easier to convert them into radical Islam. Alot of these men have already shown a violent personality so its not as difficult as say your average person pull them in.

That's really disheartening. Islam is a beautiful religion when taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Morality Games]

If you cannot preach in schools, work areas, city, county, state and federal buildings why is preaching allowed in prisons? That was the original question and to date there has been no answer.

Religion in those institutions could only be interpreted as some degree of state endorsement, because it would basically be indulging religion at the expense of fulfilling the operational goals of the bureaucracies based in them -- preaching in a federal building could only consume time, energy, and resources best invested in performing the required functions of the agency stationed there. How else could you interpret that except as state endorsement, to champion the exercise of religion by public officials in their places of work at the expense of productivity?

In contrast, religion in prisons cannot be reasonably interpreted as state endorsement -- a modicum of endorsement might exist in the fact they are allowing the preaching of religion as rehabilitative measure, but because it consumes little if any state assets, and because the usual outcome of preaching reinforces the correctional purpose of the prison facility (reduces criminal sentiments and activity), and because the government exercises little to no favoritism with regards to the religion or denomination being taught, it isn't so much as an endorsement of religion as an endorsement of what is practical over what is asinine.

 

[bhkad]

That's really disheartening. Islam is a beautiful religion when taken with a grain of salt.

That's like eating blowfish or fugu. It's deadly poisonous unless prepared exactly right.

 

[Morality Games]

That's like eating blowfish or fugu. It's deadly poisonous unless prepared exactly right.

That's pretty descriptive of all religions though; even if not by scripture, then still in practice. Religion --> Strong Expectation/Belief --> Obsession/Fixation --> Insulated Thinking --> Ignorance/Irrationality --> Harming your soul --> Causing bad behavior --> Harming other people physically and spiritually. If you're not being attentive all the time, then you run the risk of being corrupted by your religion.

Makes sense, really. Demons strike from the places you least expect them from, exploiting every psychological weakness they can.

 

[bhkad]

That's pretty descriptive of all religions though; even if not by scripture, then still in practice. Religion --> Strong Expectation/Belief --> Obsession/Fixation --> Insulated Thinking --> Ignorance/Irrationality --> Harming your soul --> Causing bad behavior --> Harming other people physically and spiritually. If you're not being attentive all the time, then you run the risk of being corrupted by your religion.

Makes sense, really. Demons strike from the places you least expect them from, exploiting every psychological weakness they can.

Lest us return to the issue of equality.

The idea is unacceptable to Islam.

For the non-believer cannot be the equal of the believer.

Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"

 

[Morality Games]

Lest us return to the issue of equality.

The idea is unacceptable to Islam.

For the non-believer cannot be the equal of the believer.

Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy"

Well, Amir Taheri is a political enemy of democracies and the democratization of the Middle East, so it follows Islam would be incompatible with democracy in his heavily biased view.

... New Testament is also relatively quiet, politically, and the Koran is in many ways a replication of the social and political policies of the Torah, so most of those criticisms are invalid unless we are being reflexive and turning them back on the more popular Western religions.

So the theoretical approach is a dud. And if we're going by practice, most prevailing religions don't treat minority faiths as equals, not historically and to a lesser extent not today. Islam is an anomoly in that addresses other faiths in detail.

 

[bhkad]

Here's how they acknowledge the other faith's believers.

Even among the believers only those who subscribe to the three so-called Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam ( Ahl el-Kitab) are regarded as fully human.

Here is the hierarchy of human worth in Islam:

At the summit are free male Muslims

Next come Muslim male slaves

Then come free Muslim women

Next come Muslim slave women.

Then come free Jewish and /or Christian men

Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian men

Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian women.

 

[Morality Games]

Here's how they acknowledge the other faith's believers.

I read the article already. But it is in the spirit of the bilbically outlined hierarchy of Jews and the various degrees of Gentile, and the historical relations between Christians and everybody else during pre-Renaissance times, and to a lesser extent the relationship between Christians and everybody except Jews in some regions of the modern day.

In its time, that was a highly progressive way of addressing the existence of other faiths. Far superior to anything the Jews or Christians had. As far as its presence nowadays goes, a Muslim could just argue non-applicability, or limited applicability, or neo-applicability, of the scripture for reasons so and so. Then their religion becomes consistent with democracy. Many liberal Muslims do just that. That's also a strategy adapted by Jews and to a certain extent Christians on a wide variety of modern ethical and political dilemmas.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Serious conversion to any religion tends to mellow prisoners significantly, and it's something for prisoners to do that most Republicans won't oppose as being "soft on crime".

I've actually never heard of the conversion concern for Guantanamo prisoners. Given the general intolerance of the prison population, what makes you think they'd all turn Muslim?

No evidence exists that it ellows them and most corrections professionals see no proof of this.

 

[Regicollis]

Isn't religious freedom supposed to be a basic human right? If people want to be Muslims the government should not interfere, be it in a prison or elsewhere. If people want to peddle their religion they should be able to do so as long as they are not disturbing public order too much. Prisoners should be as free to meet and discuss religion as they should be to form a chess club.

As far as radicalisation I think the prison experience is more radicalising than a certain religion. Radical Islam is only an outlet for the anger not the cause of it.

The stance of government should be one of indifference. No certain religion should be favoured and religion should not be favoured over non-belief.

 

[jujuman13]

Islam is already the fastest-growing religion within American prisons, and some people are radicalized there.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World.

Whether this is by coercion I would not like to say.

 

[Agent Ferris]

We need to be specific about the concern.

Convicts' conversion to Islam is not a concern, and itself has no relevance to Gitmo detainees. Malcom X converted to Islam while in prison, and, as his career shows, he was no terrorist.

That's ****ing debatable, he was a black power separatist and a member of the nation of Islam which is the black equivalent of the Nazi Party.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Certainly.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

You lose your rights while in prison. That's what makes it prison. Life, liberty, and property can be taken away through due process of law.

 

[Agent Ferris]

The inmates are still people with basic rights, they CAN be allowed their freedom of religion even if it is being delivered to them in a state institution.

They can be denied all of their rights while in prison, they can be denied freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and even their freedom to live. The rights to life, liberty, and property and be rescinded upon due process of law; furthermore, tax dollars should never be used to build chapels and/or pay the salaries of prison chaplains.

 

[upsideguy]

They can be denied all of their rights while in prison, they can be denied freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and even their freedom to live. The rights to life, liberty, and property and be rescinded upon due process of law; furthermore, tax dollars should never be used to build chapels and/or pay the salaries of prison chaplains.

But guess what, no matter how heinous the crime, they can not be denied salvation and eternal life..... Noodle on this thought: There may be more people destined for eternal life in the average prison than in the average church.

 

[dontworrybehappy]

A while back, while serving time for a stupid computer crime a long time ago, I would sometimes go through the chapel to wave to my parents who had come to visit, and I'd wave to them as they'd leave the parking lot. I accidentally walked in on two services, one a christian service of some denomination and one a nation of Islam service. Both saw me come to the door, peek in, and turn around. Well, the christian guy came out and asked if I wanted to join and I said oh no, I was just going to wave to my parents as they were leaving. He said, "that's fine dude, c'mon in!" The nation of Islam guy came out and immediately said, "WTF are you doing here? Get the **** outta here now!" Neither one of them had any idea what religion I was.

So to say that all religions are the same is not true. Islam is a religion of violence. Period.

AgentF, chaplains in prisons do way more than services. They arrange for special visits, they relay messages to inmates about sick or dying loved ones, etc etc. They are someone an inmate can go to when they just need to talk to someone. They play a VERY important role in prison, just like the chapel does. An inmate has NOTHING to do but time, why deny him a place of worship? Your comparison of not allowing kids to pray in school but inmates to pray in prison is ridiculous. The kids can leave the school and go pray at church. Inmates can't go anywhere, so church has to be there. Nowhere do we deny the right to worship to anyone, free or imprisoned. You must also remember, there are innocent people in prison. To deny them the simple and basic right to attend church is just wrong. They are sentenced to time only, especially in federal prison. No federal inmate is sentenced to "hard labor." The average day for an inmate is to go to their little slave pay job, then go to the rec yard in the evening. It's not great but not horrible. Just like it should be, he is sentenced to time, not to be abused by the prison system.

 

[Agent Ferris]

A while back, while serving time for a stupid computer crime a long time ago, I would sometimes go through the chapel to wave to my parents who had come to visit, and I'd wave to them as they'd leave the parking lot. I accidentally walked in on two services, one a christian service of some denomination and one a nation of Islam service. Both saw me come to the door, peek in, and turn around. Well, the christian guy came out and asked if I wanted to join and I said oh no, I was just going to wave to my parents as they were leaving. He said, "that's fine dude, c'mon in!" The nation of Islam guy came out and immediately said, "WTF are you doing here? Get the **** outta here now!" Neither one of them had any idea what religion I was.

So to say that all religions are the same is not true. Islam is a religion of violence. Period.

AgentF, chaplains in prisons do way more than services. They arrange for special visits, they relay messages to inmates about sick or dying loved ones, etc etc. They are someone an inmate can go to when they just need to talk to someone. They play a VERY important role in prison, just like the chapel does. An inmate has NOTHING to do but time, why deny him a place of worship? Your comparison of not allowing kids to pray in school but inmates to pray in prison is ridiculous. The kids can leave the school and go pray at church. Inmates can't go anywhere, so church has to be there. Nowhere do we deny the right to worship to anyone, free or imprisoned. You must also remember, there are innocent people in prison. To deny them the simple and basic right to attend church is just wrong. They are sentenced to time only, especially in federal prison. No federal inmate is sentenced to "hard labor." The average day for an inmate is to go to their little slave pay job, then go to the rec yard in the evening. It's not great but not horrible. Just like it should be, he is sentenced to time, not to be abused by the prison system.

If they want to pray they can pray in their cell or in an already existing multi-purpose room under know circumtances should non-volunteer staff provide services, my tax dollars should not be going to pay for organized religion. Instead of chaplains they can use counselors without a theocratic bent. I should not be forced to pay to build a church or the salary of a chaplain. If chaplains want to volunteer their time to conduct services in a multi-purpose room that's fine, I just shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

 

[Agent Ferris]

But guess what, no matter how heinous the crime, they can not be denied salvation and eternal life..... Noodle on this thought: There may be more people destined for eternal life in the average prison than in the average church.

Ya, um I don't believe in an eternal life or salvation especially not from a book based on the tales of a fictional character written hundreds of years after his supposed death.