Who made the rule that humanity could only be "saved" by Jesus dying on a cross?

[Ginger Ale]

As it seems, an all-loving God wanted do damn mankind forever for eating half an apple.

After a few million and billion of years God thought again.

It seems there was only one way to pardon mankind: If his own son died on a cross.
Where is the logic?

And: Who made this rule? Some kind of Über-God?

Could God not simply have said: "Ok ok, if mankind gives me a nice apple back, then I will forget about that other apple!"

Or grant a pardon for some other reason.

Has this all-merciful God never heard of a thing like amnesty?

And another question: We are told now that mankind is "saved" from about the year Zero onwards.
How can we tell?
What has become better since Jesus died?

Any answers?

They did pretty good with the story, I mean, they were coming off years of this.

• Zeus (/zjuːs/; Greek: Ζεύς, Zeús [zdeǔ̯s]) is the sky and thunder god in ancient Greek religion , who rules as king of the gods of Mount Olympus . His name is cognate with the first element of his Roman equivalent Jupiter.

It's starting to change to worshiping yourself and other people, for example, Scientology. Who knows where human fantasy will lead us in the future. One thing I've learned is people like to group, and be on teams.

 

[gooseneck]

@ gooseneck

I now see that you have mis-understood me one hundred percent.

Can I ask you a question?

 

[Rumpelstil]

I re-phrase my question now in the hope of making it clearer:

My question was NOT: "Who started the idea that humanity could only be saved be JESUS?"

My question was and is: "Who started the idea that humanity could only be saved by somebody's cruel DEATH on a cross?"

 

[Rumpelstil]

Can I ask you a question?

Yes.

And I repeat:

I re-phrase the title now

My question was NOT: "Who started the idea that humanity could only be saved be JESUS?"

My question was and is: "Who started the idea that humanity could only be saved by somebody's cruel DEATH on a cross?"

 

[Rumpelstil]

You'd need to know quite a bit about OT animal sacrifice, feasts and festivals to fully understand the point of Jesus' death. The entire OT beginning in Genesis foreshadows the idea of sacrifice.

I think you are on the right track answering my question.

>>> animal sacrifice and even killing of human beings as sacrifice

 

[VanceMack]

Its tragic that the OP and so many like him are so warped by their own hatred and bigotry that they dont even realize that the premise of their question is flawed.

 

[Rumpelstil]

Its tragic that the OP and so many like him are so warped by their own hatred and bigotry that they dont even realize that the premise of their question is flawed.

Hatred and bigotry seems to be all yours.
You did not understand a word of what I am saying.
And you yourself know nothing more than personal insults?
That is not the way I like to discuss things.

Over and out.

 

[Aristaeus]

To be fair, there's a lot about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not just this.

 

[Rumpelstil]

@ human sacrifice

During the pre-Columbian era, human sacrifice in Maya culture was the ritual offering of nourishment to the gods. Blood was viewed as a potent source of nourishment for the Maya deities, and the sacrifice of a living creature was a powerful blood offering. By extension, the sacrifice of a human life was the ultimate offering of blood to the gods, and the most important Maya rituals culminated in human sacrifice. Generally only high status prisoners of war were sacrificed, with lower status captives being used for labour

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Maya_culture

So is Christianity based on the idea that it is necessary to kill people to appease an angry God?
A God that is angry because of half an apple?

 

[Rumpelstil]

To be fair, there's a lot about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not just this.

I completely agree with you.
There are also other things that do not make sense.

 

[tosca1]

This sentence: "Jesus saved us, because he died for our sins" has been repeated so often that people believed in it.
But once you question it, there is no rhyme or reason in it.

But it is believed.
Just as Trump is believed, when he repeats often enough that he won the election in 2020 and is the greatest US-President of all times.

Hahahahahaha

Raising the TRUMP-card......a clear sign that Rumpel's desperately scraping the bottom of his empty barrel.

Take it easy on the scraping - you're only making the hole bigger.

 

[tosca1]

Who made this rule? Some kind of Über-God?
Could God not simply have said: "Ok ok, if mankind gives me a nice apple back, then I will forget about that other apple!"
Or grant a pardon for some other reason.
Has this all-merciful God never heard of a thing like amnesty?

Any answers to these questions?

Why does the rule even matter to you, never mind where it came from -

should be the question!

I think this strange theory has been invented to give everybody on earth a bad conscience.

SO.......your conscience must be bothering you, huh?



I guess I hit it right when I said:

Rumpel seems to be searching for reassurance ...............so he wouldn't be regretting turning his back on God.

 

[tosca1]

To be fair, there's a lot about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not just this.

Like what?

 

[tosca1]

The change between the old testament which basically codified "Gods law", opposed the new testament which was based on belief and acceptance of gospels.

Nothing had changed, or had opposed either.

Acceptance of the Gospels entails OBEDIENCE TO THE FATHER!


Matthew 7
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


I keep explaining that faith is proven by one's obedience to God. That's the FIRST, and MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT!



Matthew 12
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’



If you love someone, don't you want to do things that pleases him/her?
You can't say you love God with all your heart and your mind and soul, and yet, continue to disobey Him!

What do you think REPENTANCE is all about?

The transition of Gods authority to Jesus' sacrifice and pain by taking on all mans sins through crucifixion as a pathway to salvation, was a huge. As I understand it though, the sacrifice of Jesus to show all people that "love and kindness" now rules over the previous "God's laws and vengeance" of the old testament was just the start. Salvation requires one to be "born again" into the belief that Jesus was not just another prophet but the messiah and that belief and not deeds would verify salvation.

Nothing has changed, as shown above.

What Jesus did was EXPAND and EXPLAIN WITH MORE DETAILS what were given in the Old Testament.
Like, as an example: what constitute adultery! According to Jesus, just lusting after someone in your thoughts is, adultery!

 

[tosca1]

It's a loophole, someone has to die for your sin, but it doesn't have to be you. Someone else can be punished in your place, and that's basically what Jesus does. It's as if someone took the fall for your crime and was sentenced to life in prison but they also know the President and got the sentence commuted so now they're back out. The loophole is that once a given sin/crime is prosecuted, it can't be prosecuted again even if the wrong person was punished.

That's the best I can explain in it anyway.

You raised a very good point.

It doesn't have to be you because, God loves us. That's why He did what He had to do in order to save us.

It's as if someone took the fall for your crime and was sentenced to life in prison but they also know the President and got the sentence commuted so now they're back out.

That's why......JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF, in human form.
God Himself endured torture and death for us.
He had to be a human, to feel the pain and experience death.

It wasn't the first time God appeared to man in the form of a human. It happened in the OT, too.

 

[tecoyah]

....snip....






If you love someone, don't you want to do things that pleases him/her?
You can't say you love God with all your heart and your mind and soul, and yet, continue to disobey Him!

Shouldn't they actually tell you what they want?

 

[tosca1]

Shouldn't they actually tell you what they want?

Not necessarily. Do you always ask your loved one what she'd want you to bring her or do for her?
You just do something that you know would please her. Maybe, surprise her by cleaning the house - top to bottom!

But especially so, if they tell you what it is they specifically want. Right?

If your loved one says, "I hate the color yellow," would you bring her yellow flowers?

 

[tecoyah]

Not necessarily. But especially if they tell you what it is they want. Right?

Sure...but having someone you do not know or trust do it for them does not cut it.

"Hey...your wife told me she wanted you to give me all the money in your bank account".

 

[tosca1]

Sure...but having someone you do not know or trust do it for them does not cut it.

If your mother was rescued from getting mugged by a stranger - are you saying, "that doesn't cut it?"

"Hey...your wife told me she wanted you to give me all the money in your bank account".

I don't really get what you're getting at as an analogy here.
Can you expand?


Here's my analogy:
"Hey, they're throwing the biggest party ever at the mansion, and everyone is invited! I mean...... EVERYONE!
They're giving out free admission ticket! That's the ONLY condition for entry!
If you want to get in, better get the ticket!"

....or,

"FREE TICKET for the NFL season! Come and get it!"

 

[tecoyah]

If your mother was rescued from getting mugged by a stranger - are you saying, "that doesn't not cut it?"


I don't really get what you're getting at as an analogy here.
Can you expand?

This "God" has never explained to me what I must obey, and twenty second hand, 2000 year old ramblings from untrusted sources are unacceptable versions of it. Even those unreliable sources disagree on what it supposedly wants anyway.

 

[Slartibartfast]

As it seems, an all-loving God wanted do damn mankind forever for eating half an apple.

After a few million and billion of years God thought again.

It seems there was only one way to pardon mankind: If his own son died on a cross.
Where is the logic?

And: Who made this rule? Some kind of Über-God?

Could God not simply have said: "Ok ok, if mankind gives me a nice apple back, then I will forget about that other apple!"

Or grant a pardon for some other reason.

Has this all-merciful God never heard of a thing like amnesty?

And another question: We are told now that mankind is "saved" from about the year Zero onwards.
How can we tell?
What has become better since Jesus died?

Any answers?

Imagine you contract a horrible and mortal disease passed onto children by their parents. It doesn't matter how good you are. It doesn't matter how hard you work. It doesn't matter how much you study. It doesn't matter how lucky you are. No home remedy is going to work. You're going to die and there is nothing you can personally do to stop it. The disease is not something that responds to personal philosophy or choices, its a disease.

The answer is going to the doctor and getting some antibiotics or some other medication.

The situation with Jesus saving someone is similar.

In the same way, humanity is fundamentally broken to the point it doesn't know how to fix itself (and often doesn't have the perspective to understand that it is broken in the first place, other than that something undefinable is wrong) so the result of its choices will be to crash and burn because it cannot ever know any better. It needs a doctor that knows more and has the ability to heal in a way that humanity cannot imagine or understand.

 

[tosca1]

This "God" has never explained to me what I must obey,

It's all explained in the New Testament.

and twenty second hand, 2000 year old ramblings from untrusted sources are unacceptable versions of it.
Even those unreliable sources disagree on what it supposedly wants anyway.

Then....ignore it. Your choice.

 

[tecoyah]

It's all explained in the New Testament.





Then....ignore it. Your choice.

Okay.....so that's the answer to the OP question folks...just Ignore that God fella.

 

[code1211]

I clicked on the Thumbs Up button, but a wish there was an applause button.

I just appreciate the thoughtful response of charitable people to morons and idiots.

I strive to model my posts, so far with only with limited success, to their example.

 

[Mulefoot]

I think you are on the right track answering my question.

>>> animal sacrifice and even killing of human beings as sacrifice

That's it. That's why Jesus was called God's lamb.

In the beginning, God covered Adam's "sin" in the garden with an animal sacrifice, and animal sacrifice subsequently continued throughout the OT for centuries. At the appointed time and place Jesus, as John refers to as 'the only begotten God' took it on himself as the final sacrifice, a "once and for all" sacrifice as a culmination of Jewish feasts, laws, customs, etc. On Passover weekend no less.