Who do you think is the biggest threat to America?

[Kelzie]

Thats exactly what I am saying.

So it wasn't really the Jews that killed him, it was God.

 

[SKILMATIC]

So it wasn't really the Jews that killed him, it was God.

No it was the jews that killed Him. God just knew it was going to happen cause He is omniscient. Again he gives us the ability to chose and He let the people chose.

I beleive if I am not mistaken God wasnt twisting the mens arms as they nailed Jesus to the cross. Or mabe I missed that portion in the Bible? Show me chapter and verse where it says God killed Jesus? And I will simply say that I dont beleive in God anymore.

However I have the chapter and verse in the Bible where it says the Jews killed Jesus.

First Thessolonians 2nd chapter verses 14-15.

I will also provide a link for you if you dont beleive me.

Any questions?

 

[Kelzie]

No it was the jews that killed Him. God just knew it was going to happen cause He is omniscient. Again he gives us the ability to chose and He let the people chose.

I beleive if I am not mistaken God wasnt twisting the mens arms as they nailed Jesus to the cross. Or mabe I missed that portion in the Bible? Show me chapter and verse where it says God killed Jesus? And I will simply say that I dont beleive in God anymore.

However I have the chapter and verse in the Bible where it says the Jews killed Jesus.

First Thessolonians 2nd chapter verses 14-15.

I will also provide a link for you if you dont beleive me.

Any questions?

So if you had a son. Sent him to people you KNEW were going to kill him, and did nothing to stop it when you could have every step of the way...in fact, you WANTED to sacrifice him for some reason, wouldn't you say you were the one that killed him, not the Jews? I would.

 

[SKILMATIC]

So if you had a son. Sent him to people you KNEW were going to kill him, and did nothing to stop it when you could have every step of the way...in fact, you WANTED to sacrifice him for some reason, wouldn't you say you were the one that killed him, not the Jews? I would.

Again chapter and verse please? I have put up my end of the discussion but yet you have failed to do yours.

I think this argument is over due to the fact I already proved you wrong.

Wanna keep going?

I can dish this out all night for you sweetheart.

 

[kal-el]

No it was the jews that killed Him. God just knew it was going to happen cause He is omniscient. Again he gives us the ability to chose and He let the people chose.

I beleive if I am not mistaken God wasnt twisting the mens arms as they nailed Jesus to the cross. Or mabe I missed that portion in the Bible? Show me chapter and verse where it says God killed Jesus? And I will simply say that I dont beleive in God anymore.

However I have the chapter and verse in the Bible where it says the Jews killed Jesus.

First Thessolonians 2nd chapter verses 14-15.

I will also provide a link for you if you dont beleive me.

Any questions?

I believe it was the Romans and the Jewish establishment that murdered Jesus.

 

[steen]

WELL OF COURSE YOU KILLED THE MAN, :lol:

And thus, we see the hate mongering perpetrated by the radical rightwing fundamentalists.

This is where you are wrong sunny boy, :lol: . The radical islamists who ran planes into buildings have their own religion.

As does the radical Christians who advoate the killing of foreign Government leaders.

So were they right or were they wrong? Hmmm....??? Thats a good question to ask yourself my friend

Are the Christians right or wrong? Hmm......

 

[steen]

Lol thats what I am trying to tell these people. Jesus is God. And they killed the physical form of him.

I find it disturbing when hate-spewing fundies don't even know scripture. Christ HAD to die, else the prophesies would not have been fulfilled and he would not have been God.

You are like the ignorant pesants of the Middle Ages who attacked Jews for Herod's ruling.

 

[AlbqOwl]

So if you had a son. Sent him to people you KNEW were going to kill him, and did nothing to stop it when you could have every step of the way...in fact, you WANTED to sacrifice him for some reason, wouldn't you say you were the one that killed him, not the Jews? I would.

Technically the Jews did not kill Jesus of Nazareth.

It was the Pharasaic leaders of the Jews who accused Jesus, and the Sadducees (the high court) who tried him and convicted him of heresy--within the dictates of Jewish law, he was in fact guilty of violating those laws when they were very narrowly and strictly defined. It should not be presumed that all or even most Jews opposed him as almost all his disciples and all 12 apostles, as well as he himself, were Jews.

The Jews themselves were forbidden to carry out capital punishment by Roman law however, so it was the Roman governor Pilate who condemned him to death, and it was Roman soldiers who carried out the sentence and execution by crucifixion.

And within Christian teachings, God did not kill Jesus who could have stopped the process by simply denouncing his own words. God did not force him to go to the cross. He went willingly and intentionally. In fact, if Jesus was in fact God who gave up all his powers to become a human like us, it was God himself who offered himself as a human sacrifice so that within the culture of that time, the people could know that God's love trumphed the ultimate penalty for sin and that this mortal existence on Earth is not all that there is. He wasn't sent to die. He was sent to win over death.

Nor can it be said, as many try to say, that George W. Bush kills soldiers by sending them to war. The soldiers enlist knowing they may be required to put themselves in harms way. They do this knowingly, willingly, and intentionally and they are true heroes. They aren't sent to war to die. They are sent to war to win. There is a profound difference.

And what is the biggest threat to America? It is those who tear us down insead of build us up. It is those who scorn and ridicule and condemn the values that made us great and kept us strong. It is those who think it is somehow immoral to win or succeed and who hold our strength and greatness in contempt. It is those who will say we must understand our enemies and blame us that we have them. Heaven help us if these deluded and angry people ever gain the upper hand for I do believe that is the one thing that can bring this country down.

 

[SKILMATIC]

And thus, we see the hate mongering perpetrated by the radical rightwing fundamentalists.

Where do you get off saying I ever said I hated the jews? Some of my friends are jewish.

As does the radical Christians who advoate the killing of foreign Government leaders.

As does with every radical religion. Or do you only know of christians to have radicalism?

Are the Christians right or wrong? Hmm......

I would really be careful of what you just said. I think every single religion has dirt on it. And this is to prove to you no one is perfect and no one will ever be.

I find it disturbing when hate-spewing fundies don't even know scripture. Christ HAD to die, else the prophesies would not have been fulfilled and he would not have been God.

You are like the ignorant pesants of the Middle Ages who attacked Jews for Herod's ruling.

I am just stating facs buddy. Get it through your head. I already know of all of this. Yes the prophecies had to be fullfuilled, yes christ had to die for our sins, and again who put the nails into jesus? Was it jesus? Was it God? Was it the americans? was it the black people? I think it was the jews if i am not mistaken. Do I really need to provide a chapter and verse for you? it is just a fact. I dont hate jews for it I was just stating a fact which happened. Any questions?

 

[26 X World Champs]

WELL OF COURSE YOU KILLED THE MAN, :lol:

I am no more responsible for Jesus' death than you are. I find your comment to be anti-Jewish. You're mocking me, how come?

And what God might that be? Please tell me under your own jewish beleifs who this is?

Why bother, you're the professed theologian remember?

This is where you are wrong sunny boy, :lol: . The radical islamists who ran planes into buildings have their own religion. So were they right or were they wrong? Hmmm....??? Thats a good question to ask yourself my friend

Aren't you the same writer who posted these tidbits in this very thread?

As does with every radical religion.

I think every single religion has dirt on it.

Sounds like you're a religious flip flopper to me! I wrote:

As far as religion goes there's no right or wrong there just is.

The radical Islamists are no better than the radical Jews or the Radical Christians, they're all evil sons of bitches. Their view of their religion is warped, and does not represent in any way the religion. My point is that radical Islamists do not represent Islam any more than the Radical Chritstians who murder people.

Growing up I was taught that all religions have merit, and it is one's personal choice, period. I was also taught that religions need not recruit people to join them as the strength and truth of their religion is more than enough of a magnet. To me people who feel the need to convert others to their religion are insecure, they feel they must justify their own beliefs by getting others to agree with them.

I also wrote previously that one's religious belief is between oneself and their God, and no further justification or explanation to anyone else is needed. People who ask "who is your God" completely miss the point, and further expose their religious insecurity because their having a one on one relationship with their God should be all they need.

Jesus is not my God, never will be, sorry. That does not make me any less than anyone else. Your beliefs are no more valid than mine, unless of course you have physical proof that I am wrong, in which case I say, "bring it on."

BTW - The Bible is not proof of anything, sorry. You'll need to come up with some real evidence...

 

[SKILMATIC]

I am no more responsible for Jesus' death than you are

You are absolutely right. Everyone is responsible becasue everyone has sinned at least once in their life.

I find your comment to be anti-Jewish.

When was the last time stating facts makes anyone anti-jewish? You are simply becoming more retarded as you post.

It was simply a fact of history. The jews nailed and killed jesus to the cross. Its that simple. Do you still want to argue with facts?

You're mocking me, how come?

Im mocking you becasue you are an idiot! When does stating facts make anyone anti-anything? I see no correlation?

Sounds like you're a religious flip flopper to me! I wrote:

And why may I ask do you pressume this?

Growing up I was taught that all religions have merit, and it is one's personal choice, period. I was also taught that religions need not recruit people to join them as the strength and truth of their religion is more than enough of a magnet. To me people who feel the need to convert others to their religion are insecure, they feel they must justify their own beliefs by getting others to agree with them.

THis is very noble but the last portion of your sentiment would suggest Jesus was insecure. Is that what you are saying? Its wrong to tell people the truth? Jesus was insecure to tell those who are wrong in what they do? This is not a matter of religion sir. I have no idea where you are getting this idea. Its a matter of truth and facts. Please go back and read the thread my friend. I am trying to recruit no one just stating facts.

 

[SKILMATIC]

BTW - The Bible is not proof of anything, sorry. You'll need to come up with some real evidence...

Prepare to be doomed. lol

Do you beleive there is a creator and a craftsman in a building? Do you beleive there was a creator for your computer? Do you beleive there is a creator/inventor for everything you use or see? Well then if the answer is yes to any of the above which I am assuming you have common sense then you beleive there is a creator of the earth and of the universe. The creator of the universe is God.

Uh oh I see someone just got proved wrong already. Do I NEED TO PROCEED with more common sense and facts? I can dish this out all day long for you my good friend.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Prepare to be doomed. lol

Do you beleive there is a creator and a craftsman in a building? Do you beleive there was a creator for your computer? Do you beleive there is a creator/inventor for everything you use or see? Well then if the answer is yes to any of the above which I am assuming you have common sense then you beleive there is a creator of the earth and of the universe. The creator of the universe is God.

I have no idea what you just wrote? My personal beliefs re God are just that personal, and I have no desire to share them with you. Therefore I cannot understand your post, sorry. I believe in EVOLUTION. I do not believe that a God created the Earth and the Universe. That does not mean I do not believe in a higher power. I think human beings invented the Computer et al, not God. I asked you for PROOF and you wrote conjecture. Conjecture is not proof by any measure.

Uh oh I see someone just got proved wrong already. Do I NEED TO PROCEED with more common sense and facts? I can dish this out all day long for you my good friend.

You really like to pat yourself on the back. Whether you're right or not obviously has no bearing on how you see yourself. While I admire people with high self-esteem I do not put a lot of stock into people who aren't able to see the truth or know if they're right or wrong.

 

[SKILMATIC]

No you are highly misunderstanding everything you read.

My point was that if someon had to make or design earthly things then I thinks its suffice to say someone made this very earth and designed it. This earth didn come by the big crap theory. That theory has so many holes in it its not even funny. Thats why its called a theory. But Creationism is full of facts and evidentiary support. Of course theres no writing somewhere from God on this earth saying he patented it but theres enough evidence that He created it.

To be believe in a creator you must believe in God if you beleive in God then you beleive what He says if yu beleive what he says then its this simple for you,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"

And now you say you dont want to get into it now that you cant sustain this argument casue you have none. I have already proved to you there is a GOD. And you said before you dont beleive in one and now you say you beleive in a higher being(sounds like a god beleiver to me).

See? Its that simple my friend.

 

[Duke]

No you are highly misunderstanding everything you read.

My point was that if someon had to make or design earthly things then I thinks its suffice to say someone made this very earth and designed it. This earth didn come by the big crap theory. That theory has so many holes in it its not even funny. Thats why its called a theory. But Creationism is full of facts and evidentiary support. Of course theres no writing somewhere from God on this earth saying he patented it but theres enough evidence that He created it.

To be believe in a creator you must believe in God if you beleive in God then you beleive what He says if yu beleive what he says then its this simple for you,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"

And now you say you dont want to get into it now that you cant sustain this argument casue you have none. I have already proved to you there is a GOD. And you said before you dont beleive in one and now you say you beleive in a higher being(sounds like a god beleiver to me).

Could I hear some of these facts and eveidence that you say that support creation? There is overwhelming eveidence that evolution is a fact, and I have heard nothing of the sort about creation. The Bible doesn't really count for didlly, because as far as anyone can tell, someone could have sat down in thier armchair and wrote the whole thing from scratch. The case for evolution is almost immpossible to argue at length. This is an essay on evolution by Ian Johnston, a little long, but I think everyone should read it.






The Short Proof of Evolution
by
Ian Johnston
Malaspina University-College
Nanaimo, BC

"We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the rational case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the scientific truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance."

See? The Bible isn't exactly facutal any way............
Try to argue with these points. I dare you. Take your best shot.


Duke

 

[steen]

Where do you get off saying I ever said I hated the jews? Some of my friends are jewish.

Ah, the "But you are wrong. Some of my best friends are..." Yup. Sure.

As does with every radical religion. Or do you only know of christians to have radicalism?

So why did you try to present it as uniquely "Islamist"? Why the deception when you already knoew it was unwarranted?

I would really be careful of what you just said. I think every single religion has dirt on it. And this is to prove to you no one is perfect and no one will ever be.

And yet, you tried to uniquely single out the Mulsims. Perhaps YOU should be more careful with what you are saying?

I am just stating facs buddy. Get it through your head. I already know of all of this.

Ah, yes. It is "facts" when you talk about "radical iislamists," and persecution and misrepresentation when the talk falls on Christian radicals. Gee, can you say "hypocricy"?

Yes the prophecies had to be fullfuilled, yes christ had to die for our sins, and again who put the nails into jesus? Was it jesus? Was it God?

It was GOD'S WILL. That you are trying to assign BLAME here is disgusting.

...I think it was the jews if i am not mistaken. Do I really need to provide a chapter and verse for you? it is just a fact. I dont hate jews for it I was just stating a fact which happened. Any questions?

Yeah, why are you spewing hate mongering anti-semitism here? What is it about this that gets you off?

 

[steen]

No you are highly misunderstanding everything you read.

Oh, it gets better and better. Now you are blaming others for not understanding your ramblings?

My point was that if someon had to make or design earthly things then I thinks its suffice to say someone made this very earth and designed it.

Why? Because you wish for it to be so? Yeah, we really trust your wisdom at this point. suurrreeee...

This earth didn come by the big crap theory.

What is the "big crap theory"?

That theory has so many holes in it its not even funny. Thats why its called a theory.

Ah, so you are not talking about a SCIENTIFIC THEORY, then, right? Because to describe a SCIENTIFIC THEORY as "only a theory" is sign of either extreme ignorance or extreme dishonesty. And you are not ignorant or dishonest, are you?

But Creationism is full of facts and evidentiary support.

Really? If it is "full" of such, it shouldn't be hard for you to list some, right?

Go ahead. Feel free to list some below. Use the whole page if you need to. We have waited for this for years, actual evidence FOR creationism. I just wonder why you never submitted it to the scientific, peer-reviewed journals. That would have saved so much time fighting over this stuff and putting effort into the many lies the creationists have told about the Scientific Theory of Evolution. If you actually had evidence FOR creationism, you could have posted that long time ago and avoided all that evidence of creationist dishonesty.

Of course theres no writing somewhere from God on this earth saying he patented it but theres enough evidence that He created it.

Again, feel free to use the whole page to list this evidence.

Now, a question, though. What does the "creation" of Earth have to do with the Scientific Theory of Evolution? After all, THIS specific Scientific Theory doesn't deal with how the Earth or the Universe originated.

To be believe in a creator you must believe in God

Really? Why? And don't forget that it is easy to believe in God and still accept the Science that went into the Scientific Theory of Evolution and all the other Scientific Theories.

if you beleive in God then you beleive what He says if yu beleive what he says then its this simple for you,

And?

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"

Ah, God's allegory, God's story to us about the "why" of the origin of the universe and of life. Yeah, what does such an allegorical story have to do with anything? That's of course NOT a science text.

And now you say you dont want to get into it now that you cant sustain this argument casue you have none. I have already proved to you there is a GOD.

Hmm, that's interesting. Where did you do that? You made some unrealistic and unsustained "if-then" claims. But "evidence"? I was under the impression that even theologians state that the belief in God is a matter of Faith rather than evidence.

The last time there was a desire for a tangible, evident God, the Israelites build a Golden Calf in the desert. Is creationism your Golden Calf?

...See? Its that simple my friend.

Well, it is simple to claim. Now, I eagerly await your evidence.

 

[26 X World Champs]

This earth didn come by the big crap theory. That theory has so many holes in it its not even funny. Thats why its called a theory. But Creationism is full of facts and evidentiary support.

Sorry, but I read this post and I :rofl .

I am always amazed when someone writes that evolution is a theory and creationism is an undisputable fact. I disagree and do not believe you've proven a thing.

I do not believe in Creationism, I believe in Science. I have Science on my side, you have a set of novels.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Sorry, but I read this post and I :rofl .

I am always amazed when someone writes that evolution is a theory and creationism is an undisputable fact. I disagree and do not believe you've proven a thing.

I do not believe in Creationism, I believe in Science. I have Science on my side, you have a set of novels.

Most of us who believe in Creationism also believe in evolution. We do not see them as mutually exclusive.

And how did a thread titled 'What do you think is the biggest threat to America" get off on this subject anyway?

 

[steen]

Most of us who believe in Creationism also believe in evolution. We do not see them as mutually exclusive.

As "creationism" is based on claims to dsicredit the science, they are actually mutually excusive. Now, "Creation" and Evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It might seem trivial, but the difference is significant.

 

[kal-el]

No you are highly misunderstanding everything you read.

My point was that if someon had to make or design earthly things then I thinks its suffice to say someone made this very earth and designed it. This earth didn come by the big crap theory. That theory has so many holes in it its not even funny. Thats why its called a theory. But Creationism is full of facts and evidentiary support. Of course theres no writing somewhere from God on this earth saying he patented it but theres enough evidence that He created it.

To be believe in a creator you must believe in God if you beleive in God then you beleive what He says if yu beleive what he says then its this simple for you,

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"

And now you say you dont want to get into it now that you cant sustain this argument casue you have none. I have already proved to you there is a GOD. And you said before you dont beleive in one and now you say you beleive in a higher being(sounds like a god beleiver to me).

See? Its that simple my friend.

I somewhat agree with your first paragraph here, but I believe that we were created by a supreme being (call him god if you so desire), however I do not believe what I was forcibly spoonfed to be the "truth" by my parents, and so on, about the "God" being "intangible", or other such fallaces. You could not question this belief, or else you are called a "sinner", or other nonsensical things. As I said before, the Bible has alot of misconceptions in it, and if you question it, no answers are given, everything is just explained away as "divine" mysteries, so there was no need for explanation.

 

[AlbqOwl]

As "creationism" is based on claims to dsicredit the science, they are actually mutually excusive. Now, "Creation" and Evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It might seem trivial, but the difference is significant.

All Creationism is not based on claims to discredit the science. Most Creationists believe God probably used evolution as part of the process of Creation. Creationism was not invented in opposition to Darwin. It is a deeply held belief that there is a supernatural intelligence that set all the forces of science and everything else into motion.

 

[steen]

All Creationism is not based on claims to discredit the science. Most Creationists believe God probably used evolution as part of the process of Creation.

That is very news to me. The creatinist arguments I have seen are all about how "Evolutions is wrong because it says <insert favorite misrepresentation>"

Creationism was not invented in opposition to Darwin.

Yes it is.

It is a deeply held belief that there is a supernatural intelligence that set all the forces of science and everything else into motion.

Ah, but what you are talking about there is "Theistic Evolution," isn't it?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I've been reading this thread backwards and have yet to get top the part where people were still talking about "the biggest threat to America."

This thread has apparently outlived its usefulness. I'm closing it.

Feel free to initiate a new thread re the issues you're discussing here at its end.