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While we were sleeping

Inuyasha

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While we are running around solving the most profound problems of the human race, like Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays or worrying about gay cowpokes other things are going on.

I am a person who believes that if we are in Iraq and Afghanistan we are there for a reason and it is not to spend 200 billion taxpayer dollars simply to bring democracy to far away places. Bring a democracy is a tool to keep us in the area and to have influence. To me the reason for being in these two places is oil. That is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It is life in the modern world.

It is my contention that if you can control Iraq and Afghanistan you can effectively put the squeeze on Iran . But not be necessarily for Iranian oil. That is a consolation prize. But rather to be able to go into Iran and build a pipeline to the Indian Ocean ports with the object of getting the oil from the north to market. Who ever controls that pipeline effectively controls most of the world.

The nations to the north of the ME oil producing nation have the largest known oil fields in the world and most of this area has not been effectively exploited for its oil. When it is a lot will change.

Why this concern on my part? Because this morning on the AM news it was announced that China has struck a deal with Kazakhstan to by 140 million barrels per annum through a pipeline that now exists between the two nations. This makes Kazakhstan the third largest oil exporter in the world, The Chinese can use all the petroleum they can get to feed their growing economy. This news was not even talked about it was just put on the bottom screen ticker tape news.We better get crackin' . Oh and BTW Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
 
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Interesting opinions. Have you ever found any evidence that we are in Iraq solely for oil?
 

Caine

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NOO YOUR WRONG!!!!

It is absolutely worth ruining the Social Security Program and putting us in trilliions of debt, as well as 2100 American Forces Lifes, just to install a Democracy in Iraq........Its not about oil....... NO WAY MAN!!! NO FREAKIN' WAY!!!!!!
 

Inuyasha

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KCConservative said:
Interesting opinions. Have you ever found any evidence that we are in Iraq solely for oil?
If the government were to tell this to the people under the present circumstances it would create a firestorm. Not having told this to the people from the start was a mistake in judgement by the government. No one's perfect.

We are there to make a better life for our citizens and that can be accomplished through all that oil brings at the moment. Do you have a better reason?

Is there something wrong with the desire for oil? It is not unethical. All countries want more energy and need it.
 

Binary_Digit

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I don't think the Iraq war was for oil, Haliburton, OR a democratic Iraq. I think it was a series of mistakes. A bunch of incorrect gut feelings, the fear of being able to prevent another 9/11 yet doing nothing, the pressures on bureaucracies created specifically to find evidence that something which doesn't exist actually does, the misunderstanding of why Muslims so commonly become terrorists against the USA, etc. etc.

But if the chief export of the Middle East were grapes instead of oil, our history in that region would be very different. After WW2, the Allies were concerned about the Soviets annexing Iran for its oil. At one point we had to specifically tell them to remove thier troops from northern Iran, because they were trying to sneak in and claim territory. Throughout the Cold War we were concerned about the Soviet Union's ambitions to acquire that oil, which further entangled us into Middle East history. What a complex web we weave.
 

Inuyasha

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Binary_Digit said:
I don't think the Iraq war was for oil, Haliburton, OR a democratic Iraq. I think it was a series of mistakes. A bunch of incorrect gut feelings, the fear of being able to prevent another 9/11 yet doing nothing, the pressures on bureaucracies created specifically to find evidence that something which doesn't exist actually does, the misunderstanding of why Muslims so commonly become terrorists against the USA, etc. etc.

But if the chief export of the Middle East were grapes instead of oil, our history in that region would be very different. After WW2, the Allies were concerned about the Soviets annexing Iran for its oil. At one point we had to specifically tell them to remove thier troops from northern Iran, because they were trying to sneak in and claim territory. Throughout the Cold War we were concerned about the Soviet Union's ambitions to acquire that oil, which further entangled us into Middle East history. What a complex web we weave.

I like your first paragraph even though it is mostly counter to what i think. You raise some excellent points. The second paragraph is, of course, factual history

I do not say that oil is the solereason for the war but it does figure predominately into the equation. And that is true of most conflits in the past 100 years. I don't think the administration went to war over just one point. Every conflict is a complicated maze of facts and ideas.

The Democrats are a great disappointment in this war. They could have prevented it but the choose not to. Now they want out. The Democratic party has to get it's sh¡t together before I'll vote for it again. Neither party really goes to the people anymore. Once they are in power it's "lets go crazy and spend and spend and tax and tax." This, along with tons of pork, seems to be the only thing politicians are good for anymore.
 

FinnMacCool

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Is there something wrong with the desire for oil? It is not unethical. All countries want more energy and need it.
Theres nothing wrong with desiring oil. But there is something wrong with invading a country and, while directly or indirectly, causing the deaths of 30,000 Iraqi civillians and 2,000 dead american soldiers for it.
 

Inuyasha

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FinnMacCool said:
Theres nothing wrong with desiring oil. But there is something wrong with invading a country and, while directly or indirectly, causing the deaths of 30,000 Iraqi civillians and 2,000 dead american soldiers for it.

That is certainly true but i am dealing here not with the morality of the situation but rather it's causes and future effects. Morally you have the high ground. That is why there is so much play on the "democracy" issue.
 

Iriemon

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Inuyasha said:
The Democrats are a great disappointment in this war. They could have prevented it but the choose not to. Now they want out. The Democratic party has to get it's sh¡t together before I'll vote for it again. Neither party really goes to the people anymore. Once they are in power it's "lets go crazy and spend and spend and tax and tax." This, along with tons of pork, seems to be the only thing politicians are good for anymore.
A disappointment to me to, but we had been attacked and everyone wanted to stand united. Who know the extent to which the president had manipulated the intellegence? Who knew in late 2002 he was going to rush to war? Hindsight is wonderful.

As far as the election, my optimism is no higher than yours. But when you have a party that took us from a surplus to $2.4 trillion additional debt in just 5 years, and that got us into a civil war quagmire because of (at least) numerous mistakes, that is enough proof of incompetence for me. I'd try anyone else. It is unlikely they could do worse.
 

Inuyasha

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Iriemon said:
A disappointment to me to, but we had been attacked and everyone wanted to stand united. Who know the extent to which the president had manipulated the intellegence? Who knew in late 2002 he was going to rush to war? Hindsight is wonderful.

As far as the election, my optimism is no higher than yours. But when you have a party that took us from a surplus to $2.4 trillion additional debt in just 5 years, and that got us into a civil war quagmire because of (at least) numerous mistakes, that is enough proof of incompetence for me. I'd try anyone else. It is unlikely they could do worse.
I agree, just the ballooning of the deficit in such a short time itself is enough to makes you wonder how these people ever got to be millionaires. We are stuck with this situation for the time being and we'll have to stay the course (as George Bush says) and prepare better conditions for change.
 
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