Which is More Powerful

[Divine_Wind]

Once again, I'll restate that you're not ready for a home defense gun.

Agreed. A self-defense foam finger would be more appropriate....from the EU.

 

[Rich2018]

Most home invasions and theft are done when no one is home, if someone breaks into your home while you are there I would assume that they are after more than just the TV set. I will take what ever means needed to protect my family, that includes deadly force. I'm no someone that would shoot first and ask questions later, but I will use a firearm as the last resort.

To my mind someone breaking into your house isn't a home invasion, it's a simple burglary


Burglars/intruders can be divided into two kinds...the ones who think you're not home (or think you are but they won't disturb you) and the ones who don't care and are willing to fight you.

The first type will run if you give them a route out of the house

The second type is the dangerous one but they're quite rare.


I had a pointless argument with another poster last year over this.
Essentially "home invasion" is not a crime in most states, they charge intruders with burglary or aggravated burglary not home invasion so getting accurate stats is difficult

Of course the other poster was like a dog with a bone and kept repeating himself over and over that home invasion was a crime in every state - it's not.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Of course the other poster was like a dog with a bone and kept repeating himself over and over that home invasion was a crime in every state - it's not.

Breaking and entering is a crime in every state, which is the same thing as home invasion.

 

[BahamaBob]

While I have not read all the posts on this subject, it seems to me that some are of the opinion that someone who breaks into your home deserves the benefit of the doubt. I recall a couple of men who broke into a house beat the husband until they thought he was dead then raped and murdered his wife and daughters. Because I have no evidence that someone breaking into my home is not the same as those two, I will assume that they are and act accordingly. My philosophy which is proven and true is, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If I confront someone breaking into my home they will have two choices, obey my commands or be shot.

 

[Rich2018]

Breaking and entering is a crime in every state, which is the same thing as home invasion.

Yes it is, it's just not called home invasion in most states; it's called robbery, burglary or aggravated burglary, or murder/rape if those were done.
Home invasion is not actually on the statute books of most states, so consequently it is not actually a crime


You seem to understand this, another poster could not (or perhaps due to his contradictory style of debating, would not)


Accordingly getting accurate national statistics on what we might refer to a "home invasion" is difficult at best.

 

[Rich2018]

While I have not read all the posts on this subject, it seems to me that some are of the opinion that someone who breaks into your home deserves the benefit of the doubt. I recall a couple of men who broke into a house beat the husband until they thought he was dead then raped and murdered his wife and daughters. Because I have no evidence that someone breaking into my home is not the same as those two, I will assume that they are and act accordingly. My philosophy which is proven and true is, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If I confront someone breaking into my home they will have two choices, obey my commands or be shot.

So if some hungry, homeless teenager breaks into your house for the contents of your fridge, your response is to treat him his an invading SWAT team.


"Honest officer, I thought he was going to murder my wife and rape me..."


I can guarantee your attitude, if you actually carried it out, would get you judged by 12, right into your orange jump suit.

 

[Artymoon]

So if some hungry, homeless teenager breaks into your house for the contents of your fridge, your response is to treat him his an invading SWAT team.


"Honest officer, I thought he was going to murder my wife and rape me..."


I can guarantee your attitude, if you actually carried it out, would get you judged by 12, right into your orange jump suit.

Be serious Rich, how many instances of a "homeless hungry teenager" breaking in have you heard of? I mean you could play ridiculous scenarios out in your head ad infinitum but they would all have one common thread; illegally entering a private residence. For example: Let's say you walk into a cave (and you know there are bears in the area) and there's a momma bear and her cubs inside. Does the bear assume you are there to say hello and take selfies with her cubs? No. She eats your a** for lunch and does her job protecting her young.

 

[Rich2018]

Be serious Rich, how many instances of a "homeless hungry teenager" breaking in have you heard of?

I once returned from from work one day, and apart from a pair of shoes, we lost a loaf of bread, every can of soda in the fridge (note: none of the beer), ham, cheese, mayo etc
The kitchen window had been left open

I mean you could play ridiculous scenarios out in your head ad infinitum but they would all have one common thread; illegally entering a private residence....

But you don't need to kill everyone who does so

Let's say you walk into a cave (and you know there are bears in the area) and there's a momma bear and her cubs inside. Does the bear assume you are there to say hello and take selfies with her cubs? No. She eats your a** for lunch and does her job protecting her young.

You liken home owners right to kill intruders with wild animals displaying maternal instincts to protect the young
Did I get that right ?


And I thought gun owners dismissal with how some European countries handle gun control was verging a rabid insanity.

 

[Artymoon]

I once returned from from work one day, and apart from a pair of shoes, we lost a loaf of bread, every can of soda in the fridge (note: none of the beer), ham, cheese, mayo etc
The kitchen window had been left open




But you don't need to kill everyone who does so





You liken home owners right to kill intruders with wild animals displaying maternal instincts to protect the young
Did I get that right ?


And I thought gun owners dismissal with how some European countries handle gun control was verging a rabid insanity.

Sorry someone broke into your house, that would definitely suck and stick with you. But obviously they did it while you were away to avoid conflict. I've never said that I would shoot anyone who broke into my home. Quite the opposite - only if necessary. I would be devastated if I had to.

Sheeez... if you think humans don't have paternal/maternal instincts do protect their children then I'm beginning to wonder if you were raised on this planet. If someone comes into my house while my family is inside and does not obey a command to get out then the red shade comes down and any force necessary will be used to end the threat. Is that even a debate? I know of absolutely no one who would not defend their family from harm. Wouldn't you defend yours at all costs?

 

[Rich2018]

Sorry someone broke into your house, that would definitely suck and stick with you. But obviously they did it while you were away to avoid conflict. I've never said that I would shoot anyone who broke into my home. Quite the opposite - only if necessary. I would be devastated if I had to.

My apologies, I mistakenly thought the attitude in post #129 was yours.
It wasn't

... if you think humans don't have paternal/maternal instincts do protect their children then I'm beginning to wonder if you were raised on this planet.

You're kind of moving the goal posts there. Bears have no possessions to protect other than their lives and their young

I don't have any children living in my house but thinking a burglar/intruder was after my children's lives would probably be way down my list of assumptions.

Now if I had babies and a bear broke into my house, I might think differently and if I had a gun, I'd shoot the bear.


I don't like somewhere where bears are known to roam, but if I did, maybe I'd buy a high power rifle.

 

[Artymoon]

My apologies, I mistakenly thought the attitude in post #129 was yours.
It wasn't





You're kind of moving the goal posts there. Bears have no possessions to protect other than their lives and their young

I don't have any children living in my house but thinking a burglar/intruder was after my children's lives would probably be way down my list of assumptions.

Now if I had babies and a bear broke into my house, I might think differently and if I had a gun, I'd shoot the bear.


I don't like somewhere where bears are known to roam, but if I did, maybe I'd buy a high power rifle.

Not moving the posts, just playing on the field you drew up. But for me, I have always been more wary/conscious of the 2-legged animals vs. the 4-legged.

Having kids under your roof changes your entire outlook on safety. Make no mistake, humans are much more of an animal than bears ever will be.

 

[Rich2018]

Not moving the posts, just playing on the field you drew up....

Well sort of you are as there's a world of difference between a wild animal protecting her young and a homeowner who may have a casual teen burglar just looking for some food to a crazed crack head looking to strip you of anything he can trade for cash or drugs

I have always been more wary/conscious of the 2-legged animals vs. the 4-legged.

Me too

Especially if they're carrying a gun.

 

[BahamaBob]

So if some hungry, homeless teenager breaks into your house for the contents of your fridge, your response is to treat him his an invading SWAT team.


"Honest officer, I thought he was going to murder my wife and rape me..."


I can guarantee your attitude, if you actually carried it out, would get you judged by 12, right into your orange jump suit.

Yeah, like that happens all the time. Poor starving child in desperate need of food. Clue for you, desperate people do desperate things. Being desperate doesn't make him any less criminal and probably makes him more dangerous. As far a murdering him, I would only shoot to kill as a last resort, I probably would just cripple him.

 

[Rich2018]

Yeah, like that happens all the time.

I happened to me, but oddly enough I've not been subjected to a desperate gang of drug crazed crack-heads...

...I would only shoot to kill as a last resort, I probably would just cripple him.

Then you nothing about the law

If you shoot to wound you undermine your case to use lethal force:


"Prosecutors have another term for warning shots: attempted felonious assault, improper discharge of a firearm etc. Shooting someone in the leg rather than center mass is similarly misguided and will not evade serious felony charges...there is no such thing as a warning shot or shooting to wound. This will be construed as a miss, bad marksmanship and perhaps even attempted murder...
...any deliberate action on your part that introduces lethal force into the encounter in a manner that makes the other person aware of the lethal force, IS THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE. If you make reference to lethal force, show lethal force, hold lethal force in your hand etc., those actions are simply an alternative use of lethal force, short of pulling the trigger. If you are in a non-lethal encounter, and have used lethal force, even in this round-about, alternate way, you have escalated the encounter and will have difficulties proving your self-defense case."

Why brandishing, shooting to wound, and warning shots are BAD ideas | Buckeye Firearms Association


Shooting a warning shot or a non-lethal shooting to wound is a bad idea and may well see you in jail plus a lawsuit against your from the criminal.

 

[Felis Leo]

I happened to me, but oddly enough I've not been subjected to a desperate gang of drug crazed crack-heads...





Then you nothing about the law

If you shoot to wound you undermine your case to use lethal force:


"Prosecutors have another term for warning shots: attempted felonious assault, improper discharge of a firearm etc. Shooting someone in the leg rather than center mass is similarly misguided and will not evade serious felony charges...there is no such thing as a warning shot or shooting to wound. This will be construed as a miss, bad marksmanship and perhaps even attempted murder...
...any deliberate action on your part that introduces lethal force into the encounter in a manner that makes the other person aware of the lethal force, IS THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE. If you make reference to lethal force, show lethal force, hold lethal force in your hand etc., those actions are simply an alternative use of lethal force, short of pulling the trigger. If you are in a non-lethal encounter, and have used lethal force, even in this round-about, alternate way, you have escalated the encounter and will have difficulties proving your self-defense case."

Why brandishing, shooting to wound, and warning shots are BAD ideas | Buckeye Firearms Association


Shooting a warning shot or a non-lethal shooting to wound is a bad idea and may well see you in jail plus a lawsuit against your from the criminal.

If I may, Rich2018, have you ever considered and conceded the use of lethal force via firearm by a non-law enforcement officer or a member of our armed forces justified?

 

[Rich2018]

If I may, Rich2018, have you ever considered and conceded the use of lethal force via firearm by a non-law enforcement officer or a member of our armed forces justified?

Actually no, but I could conceive of a situation where lethal force is necessary.

 

[BahamaBob]

If I may, Rich2018, have you ever considered and conceded the use of lethal force via firearm by a non-law enforcement officer or a member of our armed forces justified?

To bad the pesky facts get in the way of your propaganda. The government data shows that of the nearly a million annual burglaries that occur when people are at home 25% result in physical violence against the victims. Thousands are raped and murdered by these cupcakes. The facts show that anyone who is desperate or criminal enough to break into your home is rarely some misguided teenager and more often a hardened criminal high on drug or alcohol.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

 

[Rich2018]

To bad the pesky facts get in the way of your propaganda. The government data shows that of the nearly a million annual burglaries that occur when people are at home 25% result in physical violence against the victims. Thousands are raped and murdered by these cupcakes. The facts show that anyone who is desperate or criminal enough to break into your home is rarely some misguided teenager and more often a hardened criminal high on drug or alcohol.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

And 60% of households choose to defend themselves without a gun.

 

[Fledermaus]

To my mind someone breaking into your house isn't a home invasion, it's a simple burglary

Burglars/intruders can be divided into two kinds...the ones who think you're not home (or think you are but they won't disturb you) and the ones who don't care and are willing to fight you.

The first type will run if you give them a route out of the house

The second type is the dangerous one but they're quite rare.


I had a pointless argument with another poster last year over this.
Essentially "home invasion" is not a crime in most states, they charge intruders with burglary or aggravated burglary not home invasion so getting accurate stats is difficult

Of course the other poster was like a dog with a bone and kept repeating himself over and over that home invasion was a crime in every state - it's not.

Home invasion is explicitly described in many state laws. And in every state the act of home invasion is a criminal act.

You ran from both my challenge to you to find even one state where the act of Home Invasion wasn't considered criminal and ultimately you ran from me when I pressed you on this..

 

[Rich2018]

And 60% of households choose to defend themselves without a gun.

Not to mention those in households with a gun but don't own or use it - despite the fact it far more likely to be used on them than any other weapon.

 

[BahamaBob]

And 60% of households choose to defend themselves without a gun.

No doubt the type of people these deviants prey on. Sheep who will not defend themselves.

 

[swing_voter]

Handguns are all about the same except for the tiny calibers.

Something like an AR15 or a 12guage with double ought is like twice as effective at stopping someone than a pistol round.

 

[BahamaBob]

Handguns are all about the same except for the tiny calibers.

Something like an AR15 or a 12guage with double ought is like twice as effective at stopping someone than a pistol round.

A twelve gauge with 00 has about 12 30 caliber pellets in it. In effect it is like shooting 12 9mm rounds all at once. An AR15 round has much more velocity and tend to tumble when hitting mass. So I have to agree with you. However, a 45 with hollow point ammo will stop anyone too and is much easier to wield in tight spaces.

 

[notquiteright]

I expect it matters to many, particularly in built-up areas, but the guy who got shot probably won't care. I've heard that 5.56 has a tendency to tumble after the initial impact, which serves to shed much of that force, and also to fragment, so the force is spilt up. I've even read claims that the fragmentation effect makes it less likely to over penetrate that your traditional pistol ammo, as the pistol projectile is less likely to fragment, and so focuses whatever force it has in one spot.

Back in my day with the old slow twist M16A1 and the old FMJ ammo there was some truth to the tumble, fragment result.

Newer rifles have a faster twist to handle the longer bullets now in use. The longer bullets and their faster twist is to counter body armor. A tumbling bullet didn't punch through consistently.

Then the new M4s and green tips ran into unarmored, rather thin terrorists and found multiple rounds could hit, pass through and the terrorist wouldn't realize they had been shot. Sure they would drop eventually but when your life depends on it, eventually is not life affirming.

Now enter ballistic tip bullets common in comp and varmint use and the longer bullet does frag and tumble again.

My CQC training is mostly AR platform, however now having trained and practiced with a 45 I tend to the 45, easier to store and easier to keep handy.

But with all of this a great deal of footnotes are required... eace

 

[Rich2018]

No doubt the type of people these deviants prey on. Sheep who will not defend themselves.

Who says the won't defend themselves. Just because they don't see a need to use lethal force ?