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I'm afraid you are going to have to explain exactly how your comparisons "blow my arguments out of the water" because I don't see that at all.
It seems like so much bluster on your part, actually. Cherry picked comparisons of countries or cities don't address data derived from general surveys of the American population. It's apples and oranges.
I'm having trouble finding real data. Nominal is easy, but that doesn't mean squat. There's no question that China had massive growth in the last ten years, but it also had massive growth in the preceding twenty. Real growth in the past 10 years struggled to hit above 11%, but in the preceding twenty years had plenty of 12+% growth in real GDP.
China's gross domestic product (GDP) growth
That is true. Some people would argue that today's richer lifestyle is actually a decline in society.
I'd argue the otherwise, that increased longevity, increased personal free time, higher divorce rates (let's be honest, abusive marriages are not a boost to society), lower death rates for infants and during childbirth, greater variety of foods, and technology has lead to a boost to society.
If we look at some of the highly religious societies, they have low longevity, low personal free times, sometimes divorce is illegal, women are little more than property, high infant and child birth death rates, low variety in foods, and technology is limited to the elite. Is that a better society?
Spoken like a true believer.
*sigh*
I'm starting to think you simply don't care what people write and you simply assume you are correct without any rebuttal at all of anyone's points.
Several users have compared the economic wealth of secular countries to religious countries and shown that the more religious you are, the worse your country is. You flat up stated you won't deal with that.
Uh, someone did the top 15 most religious and top 15 least religious. This is hardly cherry picking.
I'm sorry, but you simply have not taken the arguments and facts that I've presented on at all. You've presented a bunch of irrelevant stuff and have stood on top of it crowing that you've blown me out of the water. It's ridiculous.
Wow. I didn't even need to change a single word in that to turn at against you.
Your ASININE argument is based on old data from small samples.
You then proceed to flat up REFUSE to address arguments showing how strongly religious countries and areas are not doing better than secular countries and regions.
How can you expect anyone to buy your argument that the more religious an area is, the better then are when you FLAT UP REFUSE to address comparisons showing that not to be true?
Functionally, all you have is "I say so."
This thread is more of a failure then your Sarkozy one.
LOL, that's hilarious. You accuse us of cherry picking, then in the same breath say that the 15 most religious countries don't count, especially because someone "isn't allowed to be an atheist". If atheism is the bane of upstanding society, and the mark of the truly uneducated, then you'd think banning it would have made them better off.Let me assure you that I'm trying to discuss this in good faith.
Yes, but, as I said, I don't think this data is relevant to what I'm talking about with regard to American culture or Western culture. Especially the bottom 15 countries, which have entirely different cultural norms. It's illegal to be an atheist in most of those countries. How can you compare that to the West?
Well, data from 1960 is necessarily going to be old. But the surveys were taken up to 2010.
See the argument above about differences in cultures. Do I really need to explain this further?
What other institutions create a sense of community like religion does? Having a strong religion does not necessarily mean a country will be strong and stable, but I can't think of any secular institution that is so good at organizing communities and creating a sense of fellowship.
One might wonder what the Middle East would look like without Islam. Because of its history of tribalism, the Middle East would likely be even more fractured and contentious than it is today.
With what is our society replacing religion?
LOL, that's hilarious. You accuse us of cherry picking, then in the same breath say that the 15 most religious countries don't count, especially because someone "isn't allowed to be an atheist". If atheism is the bane of upstanding society, and the mark of the truly uneducated, then you'd think banning it would have made them better off.
Also, how would you then explain that the top 15 most atheist countries just happen to be some of the top most prosperous and happy countries in the world?
Or even better, did you think I stopped at the bottom 15 for a reason? I only did to save space, it goes on and on and on. 16 was afghanistan. You actually don't see a respectable country until about 50. So what does that say? The top 50 most religious countries just happen to be the ****tiest and poorest. Please address that.
Just admit it, it's your opinion, you miss the good ol' days and you want to find a scapegoat. Lack of jesus simply isn't the answer.
America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It: Mark Steyn: 9781596985278: Amazon.com: Books
Someday soon, you might wake up to the call to prayer from a muezzin. Europeans already are. And liberals will still tell you that "diversity is our strength"--while Talibanic enforcers cruise Greenwich Village burning books and barber shops, the Supreme Court decides sharia law doesn't violate the "separation of church and state," and the Hollywood Left decides to give up on gay rights in favor of the much safer charms of polygamy. If you think this can't happen, you haven't been paying attention, as the hilarious, provocative, and brilliant Mark Steyn--the most popular conservative columnist in the English-speaking world--shows to devastating effect. The future, as Steyn shows, belongs to the fecund and the confident. And the Islamists are both, while the West is looking ever more like the ruins of a civilization.
By the way, what is the rationale for absolving atheism of the murders of millions of people by the Soviet Union, Communist China, the Khmer Rouge, etc., all of whom were officially atheistic states?.
A community includes EVERYONE
What other institution teaches looking down on, too judge, or think of as wrong others who don't share your beliefs.
Tell me, do you think the vast majority of gay men and women feel a sense of "community" with religion?
I'd say that's a warped sense of community.
One might wonder what the middle east would be like with out Islam? More fractured??? How is that even possible?
Millions of completely innocent children, women and men have died, suffered, and continue to live in conditions you or I could not fathom almost since the beginning of man. Where is your community in that?
It's just completely ignoring and giving a pass to the ugly role religion has played. A clan mentality.
I am familiar with blind faith, but this is truly living in the world with blinders on. You can not be morally serious and make a statement such as this.
Sense of community? It's more like the sense of a clan. A community includes EVERYONE, and religion is far from inclusion of all. What other institution has broken up more families and caused more division among loved ones like religion? What other institution teaches looking down on, too judge, or think of as wrong others who don't share your beliefs.
Tell me, do you think the vast majority of gay men and women feel a sense of "community" with religion?
What about the member who's wife prays to another god. Can you speak glowingly to her about your after life? One she can share and enjoy with her family? Maybe how she will be with her loved ones and a part of your "community"? There likely isn't one which doesn't involve suffering for eternity, simply because she doesn't pray to your God. Even someone one who just does not believe in any god, do you think they feel like a part of your "community" or even love from it? I'm sure they'd love to hear about the great non-believers heaven! These people are just simply excluded, regardless of the content of their character, or how much others love them. I'd say that's a warped sense of community.
One might wonder what the middle east would be like with out Islam? More fractured??? How is that even possible? Millions of completely innocent children, women and men have died, suffered, and continue to live in conditions you or I could not fathom almost since the beginning of man. Where is your community in that? Yet, almost all of it has been done in the name of religion. Nothing has worked to stop this. Nothing. How does it get worse? To claim taking away religion would "likely make it more fractured", is based on absolutely nothing. Nothing resembling a fact or example of what you claim "likely to happen", ever occurring anywhere in the real world. It's just completely ignoring and giving a pass to the ugly role religion has played. A clan mentality.
FWIW, theocratic countries across the board do have a lower standard of living. Don't mistake theocracy for genuine religion though. It's easy to make people behave and keep them poor and stupid in the name of religion....especially at the end of a gun.
Yeah, it's not like they were totaltarian states of anything.
Let me assure you that I'm trying to discuss this in good faith.
Yes, but, as I said, I don't think this data is relevant to what I'm talking about with regard to American culture or Western culture. Especially the bottom 15 countries, which have entirely different cultural norms. It's illegal to be an atheist in most of those countries. How can you compare that to the West?
Well, data from 1960 is necessarily going to be old. But the surveys were taken up to 2010.
See the argument above about differences in cultures. Do I really need to explain this further?
I think most reasonable people would concede that I have a point.
In other words, if you survey a country in which a person would get his head chopped off if he admits to being an atheist there is good reason to believe that the figures are not going to be accurate and should not be compared to figures from countries that practice tolerance of belief. How about Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Really rich people with high levels of religiosity, right? However, I'll resist the temptation to claim that this supports the American data because it would be bogus to do so.
Nope, I have the facts that lend my argument support. You have refused to even acknowledge that much.
Sorry, but the Sarkozy thread was no failure on my part. There again you grasped on irrelevant facts and crowed loudly that it trashed my argument and accused me of being dishonest, but it did not and I was not. Even ThinkProgress centered on Sarkozy's desire to escape taxes as the main point.
I'm starting to see that you "win" most of your arguments simply by exhausting your opponents with your shotgun posting style. I'm exhausted. Good night.
Here is that data I offered, in case people have forgotten, and you do seem to have forgotten:
(Some of the figures I read off of graphs, so they may not be exactly right.)
There is always a chicken and egg argument to these type correlations.
Then you have to excuse me for thinking you are lying. I've seen many of your threads. They are little more than badly written bait threads.
That's where I stopped reading. You can't bait me into becoming uncivil. Goodbye and good luck.
It's not even that. Lowdown is trying to argue on the basis of a vague survey that his argument is right and that nothing else could even remotely be responsible.
Second, he can't even define what societal decline is.
Like pornography, I cannot define it, but I recognize it when I see it.
Poorer people tend to be more religious than wealthy people as a group, but there are always exceptions.
"Decline" is a relative term to itself and really is just a subjective thing. I think traditional worship service is going to have to compete increasingly with web/TV, but that does not mean that faith is in decline, just maybe churches.
What's the difference between a Kardashian and a Cardassian?
I hear that one is a ruthless cold-blooded reptile-like creature, and the other one is from Star Trek.
I think it's more of a function of where you were raised. Someone poor and grows up in Sweden is less likely to be religious then someone who is rich and born and raised in Saudi Arabia.
Church attendance seems be dying off in most parts of the developed world, but those who identify as "spiritual" seem to be rising. What that means? I have no idea.
There is always a chicken and egg argument to these type correlations.
Church attendance seems be dying off in most parts of the developed world, but those who identify as "spiritual" seem to be rising. What that means? I have no idea.
I don't really get this thread. If the logic held true then Vatican City would be the most prosperous and happy place on earth. That just isn't the case. Hell, the countries that surveys consistently find where religion is held as highly important are African places like Niger, which are not exactly bastions of prosperity.
The Abrahamic religions, which this thread is really about, are tribal religions. They promote a moral code that is good and time tested for small, nomadic tribes seeking to survive. They are not religions for a modern, technological civilization of tens of millions of people. That is why they are constantly being reinvented and resold in different ways so that they can remain relevant in the developed world.
The fact is Abrahamic religions are successful in the undeveloped parts of China, just as they are successful in the undeveloped parts of the rest of the world because they are useful for undeveloped peoples who are living lives not too dissimilar to the ancient nomadic roots of those religions.
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