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Where do you stand?[W:452]

What do you consider the proper level of gun control?


  • Total voters
    82
Re: Where do you stand?

Do they prosecute everyone who sells guns to felons ?

nope because the law only penalizes those who KNOWINGLY do it


and they rarely prosecute the ALLEGEDLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CASES of people who lie on form 4473


how many felons do you actually think buy guns from people they don't know (and thus don't know they are felons)?


most of the questions the gun restrictionists ask clearly demonstrate a basic lack of understanding how criminals operate, how they get guns and who supplies them.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

nope because the law only penalizes those who KNOWINGLY do it


and they rarely prosecute the ALLEGEDLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CASES of people who lie on form 4473


how many felons do you actually think buy guns from people they don't know (and thus don't know they are felons)?


most of the questions the gun restrictionists ask clearly demonstrate a basic lack of understanding how criminals operate, how they get guns and who supplies them.

If a 17 year old with an obviously fake ID buys liquor at a liquor store, is the seller at risk of prosecution ?

If a 30 year old with an expired ID was sold alcohol, is the seller at risk of prosecution ?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

If a 17 year old with an obviously fake ID buys liquor at a liquor store, is the seller at risk of prosecution ?

If a 30 year old with an expired ID was sold alcohol, is the seller at risk of prosecution ?

you are trying to impose legal requirements on PRIVATE citizens that have been applied to those who have governmentally granted liquor licenses

try again
 
Re: Where do you stand?

you are trying to impose legal requirements on PRIVATE citizens that have been applied to those who have governmentally granted liquor licenses

try again

Oh, so i should be able to legally hand out vodka to high school kids because i'm a PRIVATE citizen ?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

You're polluting your argument with another strawman.

Some people are negligent. Some people use their guns to shoot or intimidate law abiding citizens. Some of both of these groups were able to legally buy a gun, even if it's against the law for them to have a gun.

It's not your fault and your privilege is not infringed in any way, unless you suffer from a dangerous mental illness or were convicted of a violent crime.

Why are you so concerned about ensuring that crazies and felons maintain the privilege to buy a gun ?

You are not legally able to purchase a firearm if its against the law for you to own a firearm.

People deemed to be mentally defective and dangerous felons do not have the right to purchase a firearm.

If they purchase a firearm.. or attempt to purchase a firearm.. then they should by and large be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

So whats your issue?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

If the seller "isn't the problem," why do most (if not all) jurisdictions prosecute people for selling alcohol to minors?

Because generally the seller is in full knowledge that they are selling a controlled substance to someone who its illegal.

If a seller was to sell alcohol to my youngest boy.. whose 12. It would be obvious to him that he was breaking the law.. because he looks 12.

If he sold to my older son who is 14? Well.. I might give him the benefit of the doubt since my son looks and acts as if he is in his last year of college.

If a private citizen knowingly sells a firearm to a minor, or to a felon or anyone that he knows is not allowed to own a firearm.. then he is open to prosecution
 
Re: Where do you stand?

You are not legally able to purchase a firearm if its against the law for you to own a firearm.

People deemed to be mentally defective and dangerous felons do not have the right to purchase a firearm.

If they purchase a firearm.. or attempt to purchase a firearm.. then they should by and large be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

So whats your issue?

The issue is that private, intrastate sales get this magical, unjustified loophole for gun sales.

If i hand a 15 year old schizophrenic a bottle of vodka and a loaded gun, i'll only get in trouble for the vodka.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

Because generally the seller is in full knowledge that they are selling a controlled substance to someone who its illegal.

If a seller was to sell alcohol to my youngest boy.. whose 12. It would be obvious to him that he was breaking the law.. because he looks 12.

If he sold to my older son who is 14? Well.. I might give him the benefit of the doubt since my son looks and acts as if he is in his last year of college.

If a private citizen knowingly sells a firearm to a minor, or to a felon or anyone that he knows is not allowed to own a firearm.. then he is open to prosecution

See, the point you're omitting here is that for liquor, we have a high burden for "not knowingly" meaning that it primarily the sellers responsibility to ensure that the seller did not knowingly provide a gun to a felon/crazy.

For guns, there is basically no burden. Unless the seller can be proved to have known the buyer was a felon, they are not going to get in trouble.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

Oh, so i should be able to legally hand out vodka to high school kids because i'm a PRIVATE citizen ?

do you know he is a kid or do you have a reasonable suspicion he is?

You really don't have much understanding how criminals get guns do you? You just want to pass another law and then you can pretend you have DONE SOMETHING?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

The issue is that private, intrastate sales get this magical, unjustified loophole for gun sales.

If i hand a 15 year old schizophrenic a bottle of vodka and a loaded gun, i'll only get in trouble for the vodka.

when you call what has been the law for 200 years, a loophole, the merit of your argument evaporates. and claiming it is unjustified is based on your OPINION that background checks should be applied to all sales whether they are constitutional or effective or not
 
Re: Where do you stand?

do you know he is a kid or do you have a reasonable suspicion he is?

You really don't have much understanding how criminals get guns do you? You just want to pass another law and then you can pretend you have DONE SOMETHING?

I believe that responsible gun owners can and should have no problem abiding by proper enforcement of laws that are already on the books.

when you call what has been the law for 200 years, a loophole, the merit of your argument evaporates. and claiming it is unjustified is based on your OPINION that background checks should be applied to all sales whether they are constitutional or effective or not

The supreme court has upheld that felons and crazies being denied access to firearms is perfectly constitutional.

What i'm calling a loophole is a complete lack of oversight over private sales. You know, exactly what we don't have for prescription drugs, alcohol, or cars.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

Because generally the seller is in full knowledge that they are selling a controlled substance to someone who its illegal.

If a seller was to sell alcohol to my youngest boy.. whose 12. It would be obvious to him that he was breaking the law.. because he looks 12.

If he sold to my older son who is 14? Well.. I might give him the benefit of the doubt since my son looks and acts as if he is in his last year of college.

If a private citizen knowingly sells a firearm to a minor, or to a felon or anyone that he knows is not allowed to own a firearm.. then he is open to prosecution

So the seller of a firearm should be absolved of any and all responsibility to determine whether the buyer can legally purchase? That's what you and TD seem to be advocating.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

I believe that responsible gun owners can and should have no problem abiding by proper enforcement of laws that are already on the books.



The supreme court has upheld that felons and crazies being denied access to firearms is perfectly constitutional.

What i'm calling a loophole is a complete lack of oversight over private sales. You know, exactly what we don't have for prescription drugs, alcohol, or cars.

that is not related to what I said. Its not a loophole. where does the federal government-which claims its power to regulate firearms sales is based on the fact that FFLs operate in interstate commerce"-get such a power over purely intrastate second hand transactions?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

that is not related to what I said. Its not a loophole. where does the federal government-which claims its power to regulate firearms sales is based on the fact that FFLs operate in interstate commerce"-get such a power over purely intrastate second hand transactions?

You tell me: why is it unconstitutional to hold only intrastate slave auctions?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

You tell me: why is it unconstitutional to hold only intrastate slave auctions?

why don't you stick to the topic. are you claiming owning a gun should be banned?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

that is not related to what I said. Its not a loophole. where does the federal government-which claims its power to regulate firearms sales is based on the fact that FFLs operate in interstate commerce"-get such a power over purely intrastate second hand transactions?

Where do they get that power for prescription drugs ?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

why don't you stick to the topic. are you claiming owning a gun should be banned?

Okay: Why should there be federal regulations on practically every other intrastate sale of a product other than firearms?

And no; as I said in the past, anyone who legally owns a gun should not be banned from doing so without due process.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

Where do they get that power for prescription drugs ?

prescription drugs travel through interstate commerce and pharmacists engage in interstate commerce just like federally licensed dealers.
 
Re: Where do you stand?

Okay: Why should there be federal regulations on practically every other intrastate sale of a product other than firearms?

And no; as I said in the past, anyone who legally owns a gun should not be banned from doing so without due process.

you mean ones that don't have a constitutional amendment preventing federal action?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

prescription drugs travel through interstate commerce and pharmacists engage in interstate commerce just like federally licensed dealers.

I'm not allowed to resell Vicodin prescribed to me to some random opioid addict, even if it's intrastate. That's illegal. Where does that authority come from ?
 
Re: Where do you stand?

I'm not allowed to resell Vicodin prescribed to me to some random opioid addict, even if it's intrastate. That's illegal. Where does that authority come from ?

do you believe that law is really constitutional or proper? I cannot sell a gun to someone I believe is a felon either in intrastate sales. But there is no pre-existing right recognized in the bill of rights as to narcotics
 
This poll question addresses what you think the laws and the constitution should say about firearms in your ideal scenario.

As a gun owner I'm amenable to a greater system of background checks, mandating inter-state databases be available on demand for review by the relevant medical or legal authorities, etc. There are a plethora of other proposals that I've heard about in the past which didn't sound half bad. However, I don't support an assault weapons ban or putting local police departments in the position of being arbitrary arbiters of who is and isn't in need of a firearm.
 
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