When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or else"

[Grizzly Adams]

When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or else"

Muslim Male Inmate Objects to Strip Search by Apparently Anatomically Female Transgender Guard

According to the plaintiff, when it was his turn to be strip searched, defendant Buhle, a female correctional officer, approached him and ordered him to strip. The plaintiff states that he asked defendant Buhle how she was able to do that and she responded, "I'm a dude." The plaintiff says he looked at the other correctional officers, "to see if this was a prank," but that they avoided eye contact with him. He alleges that at this point, he "started to panic because he knew that Officer Buhle was a female based on her female features (breasts, face, voice and demeanor) and that exposing his nakedness to her would be in violation of his Islamic beliefs ….

The plaintiff indicates that "t was later brought to [his] attention that Officer Buhle is a female claiming to be a male and therefore is afforded all of the duties that the male officers perform without discrimination."

The plaintiff alleges that in anticipation of another encounter with defendant Buhle, he wrote defendants [GBCI Security Director John Kind and GBCI Warden Scott Eckstein] and requested an "[e]xemption from exposing my nakedness to the opposite sex ... because it is against Islam." On July 12, 2016, defendant Eckstein allegedly denied the plaintiff's request: "I have reviewed your correspondence and have also discussed your concerns with our Security Director. I have reviewed the situation and the officer in question is a male and is qualified to complete these duties. If in the future you are directed to submit to a strip search by this individual or any other male staff member it is my expectation that you will comply."

The Muslim part is apparently included because the lawsuit is based on the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, but I find it pretty much irrelevant. The conduct appears to violate 28 CFR 115.15 (regulations implementing the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003) on its face.

Thoughts? Should prison inmates (including jail detainees who've only been arrested, not even convicted) be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? Should a female detainee be forced to take off her clothes in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

It's safe to assume transgenders aren't faking. Presuming they are is bigoted.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

It's safe to assume transgenders aren't faking. Presuming they are is bigoted.

That doesn't mean we have to change everything to accommodate them.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Thoughts? Should prison inmates (including jail detainees who've only been arrested, not even convicted) be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? Should a female detainee be forced to take off her clothes in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?

If he has had his sex legally changed to female then I don't really see the problem here. What exactly is it that people like you think? Do you seriously think a man, who is attracted to women, is going to have his dick cut off and become a prison guard just in the hopes that he can look at a female inmate naked?

If a guy really wants to see a woman naked there are a hell of a lot more reasonable ways to accomplish that without having to physically alter your own genitalia or walk around dressed like a woman. Contrary to popular belief changing one's gender isn't like getting a tattoo. The process is such that you'd have to be incredibly serious about it if you're honestly planning on going through with it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

When the word “inmate” came around in the description I stopped caring about his privacy right, since he doesn’t have that right while an inmate.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

If he has had his sex legally changed to female then I don't really see the problem here. What exactly is it that people like you think? Do you seriously think a man, who is attracted to women, is going to have his dick cut off and become a prison guard just in the hopes that he can look at a female inmate naked?

If a guy really wants to see a woman naked there are a hell of a lot more reasonable ways to accomplish that without having to physically alter your own genitalia or walk around dressed like a woman. Contrary to popular belief changing one's gender isn't like getting a tattoo. The process is such that you'd have to be incredibly serious about it if you're honestly planning on going through with it.

I thought SJW's and muslim's in general were on the same 'side'?

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

That doesn't mean we have to change everything to accommodate them.

Not everything, just clothing.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

That doesn't mean we have to change everything to accommodate them.

In a free country you don't need a reason to give someone freedom you need a reason to take it away. If you want to continue telling them what they can and can't do or how to live their lives it is your responsibility to demonstrate that their life choices are negatively impacting your own. U.S. Law is not like gravity where objects at rest stay at rest until acted upon. Laws must continuously be demonstrated to be necessary for them to remain on the books or to be written at all.

If prison guard is a biological woman who is also a lesbian it would be more rational to request a different woman than if she was a transwoman.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Not everything, just clothing.

Not true.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

In a free country you don't need a reason to give someone freedom you need a reason to take it away. If you want to continue telling them what they can and can't do or how to live their lives it is your responsibility to demonstrate that their life choices are negatively impacting your own. U.S. Law is not like gravity where objects at rest stay at rest until acted upon. Laws must continuously be demonstrated to be necessary for them to remain on the books or to be written at all.

If prison guard is a biological woman who is also a lesbian it would be more rational to request a different woman than if she was a transwoman.

I believe the case involving the muslim being strip searched by a woman does exactly that. Her life choice impacted him and his faith. He shouldn't have been subjected to a strip search by her.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I thought SJW's and Muslims in general were on the same 'side'?

Justice isn't a game. It's about real people's lives. Just because Muslim's are victims in one situation doesn't mean they can't be the bad guy in another.


Now, if you're telling me that the prison could easily accommodate the Muslim, and they're only choosing not to do so to spite the Muslim that might be another story. They would need to have a consistent policy even if the prisoner was a Christian.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Not true.

You're right. People are probably putting the same clothing back on. So really nothing is changed.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Her life choice impacted him and his faith.

No, it doesn't.

First, he is in prison. It is his own life choice that impacted him and his faith.

Second, and more importantly, you don't get to just make up arbitrary religious nonsense in order to have things however you want. A Muslim cannot justify murder under the guise of honor killing. A Christian cannot deny service to a gay person just because they don't like their legal weddings. Whether the woman is trans or not has zero impact on what is required of him. The need to search him easily overcomes his right to decide who sees him naked.

He shouldn't have been subjected to a strip search by her.

So long as there is a valid cause for a strip search there is nothing wrong with limiting his choices of who performs it, and a person being trans is certainly not a valid reason for him to object.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

When the word “inmate” came around in the description I stopped caring about his privacy right

This isn't about privacy, this is about whether or not a person should be required to unveil their sexual organs to a person who does not have them or who would be aroused by them. It's about whether or not any contact necessary could reasonably be construed to be sexual or only professional.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

This isn't about privacy, this is about whether or not a person should be required to unveil their sexual organs to a person who does not have them or who would be aroused by them. It's about whether or not any contact necessary could reasonably be construed to be sexual or only professional.

That’s the very definition of privacy. Modesty is a privacy issue.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

No, it doesn't.

First, he is in prison. It is his own life choice that impacted him and his faith.

Second, and more importantly, you don't get to just make up arbitrary religious nonsense in order to have things however you want. A Muslim cannot justify murder under the guise of honor killing. A Christian cannot deny service to a gay person just because they don't like their legal weddings. Whether the woman is trans or not has zero impact on what is required of him. The need to search him easily overcomes his right to decide who sees him naked.



So long as there is a valid cause for a strip search there is nothing wrong with limiting his choices of who performs it, and a person being trans is certainly not a valid reason for him to object.

He isn't making up "arbitrary religious nonsense".

In prison or not, he still has rights.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You're right. People are probably putting the same clothing back on. So really nothing is changed.

You can put whatever clothes on you want, doesn't change anything. But if you think a male who identifies as a female is ever welcome in a public female restroom, you are mistaken. There are issues that transpeople are going to have to deal with because of their choice. If they don't want to deal with the realities of their choice, then they are making another choice.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You can put whatever clothes on you want, doesn't change anything. But if you think a male who identifies as a female is ever welcome in a public female restroom, you are mistaken. There are issues that transpeople are going to have to deal with because of their choice. If they don't want to deal with the realities of their choice, then they are making another choice.

Being transgender is no more a choice than sexual orientation.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

He isn't making up "arbitrary religious nonsense".

Yes, he is. That's what religion is. That's why it needs to be based upon faith in the first place. It's mostly just arbitrary nonsense.

In prison or not, he still has rights.

And this is very easily not one of them.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

That’s the very definition of privacy. Modesty is a privacy issue.

He's being forced to strip regardless. It's not a question of if someone can see him naked it's a question of what might motivate the person who's touching him.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Yes, he is. That's what religion is. That's why it needs to be based upon faith in the first place. It's mostly just arbitrary nonsense.


And this is very easily not one of them.

I find it strange that you are so quick to strip him of his right to religious freedom and yet so quick to defend her right to perform male activities while being transgendered. Why are her rights more important than his?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

It's safe to assume transgenders aren't faking.

Unsupported assertion that is wholly irrelevant because...

Presuming they are is bigoted.

...no one has presumed any such thing.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Being transgender is no more a choice than sexual orientation.

But allowing them to strip search a male prisoner who believes it violates his faith is a choice. And that's where the problem is. Not with her transgenderism, but the choice that was made thereafter.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

But allowing them to strip search a male prisoner who believes it violates his faith is a choice. And that's where the problem is. Not with her transgenderism, but the choice that was made thereafter.

No one gets to opt out of science. The officer is male.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

No one gets to opt out of science. The officer is male.

Gender is a social construct, not science. Biology; however, is science and biologically speaking, that officer is female.