When do you think is a good time to leave Iraq?

[americanwoman]

If it was your decision, when would you have the troops leave Iraq and why?

 

[cherokee]

One side of me says leave right now and allow them to massacre each other until no one is left standing.
My other side says give them 6 months or less to get their chit together.

But no matter when the US leaves I don’t see the Iraqi people doing what’s necessary to stabilize their country and keep it from falling head first into the Islamic holy war the people tolerate everyday.

 

[Thales]

Other.

Until we effectively disable Al Qaeda in Iraq. Then, let the Iraqis deal with it.

 

[cherokee]

Other.

Until we effectively disable Al Qaeda in Iraq. Then, let the Iraqis deal with it.

And that’s the kicker...Al Qaeda has supporters in Iraq otherwise they wouldn’t be able to operate.

 

[Thales]

And that’s the kicker...Al Qaeda has supporters in Iraq otherwise they wouldn’t be able to operate.

True. But if the "Anbar Awakening" is any indication, then we have a real chance at beating them. If we leave completely now, we've got active Al Qaeda cells in Iraq that'll have to gone after sooner or later.

 

[bhkad]

Folks, I think it is important that we keep in mind extremist Islamic forces are not limited to al Qaeda. There are hundreds of groups and millions of individuals around the world who all have the same goal of global Islamic mastery.

If every al Qaeda member were caught or killed the threat of Islamic terrorism would still exist.

Iran is an Islamist state. So is Syria and Palestine. Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah and Abu Sayyaf are just some of the Islamist organizations.

We should not leave Iraq until the central Iraqi government is independent and moderate and strong and capable of providing it's citizens with the services a government is expected to deliver and of defending itself and it's citizens from Islamic extremists.

 

[Thales]

Folks, I think it is important that we keep in mind extremist Islamic forces are not limited to al Qaeda. There are hundreds of groups and millions of individuals around the world who all have the same goal of global Islamic mastery.

If every al Qaeda member were caught or killed the threat of Islamic terrorism would still exist.

Iran is an Islamist state. So is Syria and Palestine. Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah and Abu Sayyaf are just some of the Islamist organizations.

We should not leave Iraq until the central Iraqi government is independent and moderate and strong and capable of providing it's citizens with the services a government is expected to deliver and of defending itself and it's citizens from Islamic extremists.

But how far should we be willing to go to try and stabilize another sovereign country? Until we break the bank (which we're doing already)? Until we need a military draft?

 

[Volker]

Remove the main reason for the mess and make it easier this way to stabilize the country.

The main reason are the coalition troops.

 

[bhkad]

But how far should we be willing to go to try and stabilize another sovereign country? Until we break the bank (which we're doing already)? Until we need a military draft?

How much will it cost us to have to go back in if we leave prematurely?

 

[bhkad]

Remove the main reason for the mess and make it easier this way to stabilize the country.

The main reason are the coalition troops.

Some native Iraqis who are unaffiliated with the extremist Islam movement are causing violence, it's true.

But if we left prematurely you would be forced to recognize what is already apparent to many.

And that’s the kicker...Al Qaeda has supporters in Iraq otherwise they wouldn’t be able to operate.

Yup!

Should the U.S. withdraw from Iraq leaving behind a government not competent to defend itself, Pollack and Byman predict, policy-makers will have to choose between “terrible options and worse ones.” Most of the country would quickly be overrun by Sunni groups tied to al-Qaeda and Shia groups tied to Iran. It must be expected that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis will be killed in battles and acts of terrorism. Millions more would flee.

The authors suggest creating refugee camps “along Iraq’s borders inside Iraqi territory.” Protecting the camps, preventing them from being seized by extremists -- while at the same time keeping the refugees from flooding into such American-allied countries as Jordan and Kuwait -- “would require the extensive and continued use of U.S. forces.”

A major “intelligence and reconnaissance effort” would be necessary to identify havens set up by anti-American terrorists groups. Air power and/or Special Forces would need to be deployed to destroy them.

The flow of Iraqi oil almost certainly would be disrupted. Advance planning for the economic impact on the U.S. and the global economy would be imperative.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=478870&attrib_id=7374

And those groups would vie for power and the government would have to control both in order to survive and in order for liberty and moderation to survive.

 

[Thales]

How much will it cost us to have to go back in if we leave prematurely?

But at what minimal point can we leave while not having to go back in? I'd argue that said point is when the Al Qaeda camps have been taken out.

I wouldn't try to pursue perfection here. I think we lost that ability long ago, and to do so now would keep us there indefinitely. We will never get every terrorist everywhere... but we can get as many as we can with minimal loss of life, while not having to go after all of them.

If countries are ruled by Sharia law, regrettable as it might seem, so be it. If we can pursue a policy that targets less those that we dislike and more those that have the intent and capability to attack us, things will go much better.

 

[Volker]

And those groups would vie for power and the government would have to control both in order to survive and in order for liberty and moderation to survive.

This is a possible scenario, during a difficult transition time there could be other forces there.

 

[cherokee]

Personally I have no faith left in the Iraqi people. Nor do I really care about them anymore. Our troops have successfully completed their mission, Saddam and his buddies are dead and Our troops tried to help them rebuild a free Iraq but what did the people do? They allowed militants from around the world to come in and freely operate destroying anything built to provide a better life for the Iraqi people. They chose to look the other way because of some retarded Islamic feud. They had the chance to do something great and they pi$$ed it away.

As far as going back in no one here would like my ideas on dealing with that.

 

[cherokee]

This is a possible scenario, during a difficult transition time there could be other forces there.

Like who? Name the forces the sunni, shia and AQ would listen to?

 

[Thales]

Like who? Name the forces the sunni, shia and AQ would listen to?

Not necessarily listen to, but be forced to contend with. I'm sure that Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran all have ideas of how Iraq should be to best benefit them.

 

[Volker]

Like who? Name the forces the sunni, shia and AQ would listen to?

These could be Sunni and Shia troops as well from the region or from Asia. The AQ would not listen to anyone, I don't expect their number in Iraq as being so big.

 

[cherokee]

Not necessarily listen to, but be forced to contend with. I'm sure that Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran all have ideas of how Iraq should be to best benefit them.

And that’s another major problem.

Like Saudi Arabian forces which are Sunni and Iranian which is Shia?

We would be better off placing Charles Manson in charge of Iraq.....:lol:

 

[cherokee]

These could be Sunni and Shia troops as well from the region or from Asia. The AQ would not listen to anyone, I don't expect their number in Iraq as being so big.

And how long to you think it will be before they start fighting themselves
The two groups you sent in as peacekeepers? All AQ needs to do is keep the holy war alive between the sunni and shia. Just like they've been doing.:2wave:

 

[Iriemon]

Folks, I think it is important that we keep in mind extremist Islamic forces are not limited to al Qaeda. There are hundreds of groups and millions of individuals around the world who all have the same goal of global Islamic mastery.

If every al Qaeda member were caught or killed the threat of Islamic terrorism would still exist.

Iran is an Islamist state. So is Syria and Palestine. Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah and Abu Sayyaf are just some of the Islamist organizations.

We should not leave Iraq until the central Iraqi government is independent and moderate and strong and capable of providing it's citizens with the services a government is expected to deliver and of defending itself and it's citizens from Islamic extremists.

It is our illegitimate occupation of Iraq that is spreading these groups.

 

[Iriemon]

How much will it cost us to have to go back in if we leave prematurely?

If there is a legitimate reason to go back in, then it won't be us alone.

The cost of going back will be far less than the cost of occupying 10 years fighting the jihad that is motivated by our presence there.

 

[Iriemon]

We should never have invaded, we should have left years ago.

We cannot just up and leave in the middle of the dark. That would not be fair. We should announce we have accomplished our objectives, it is up to the Iraqis now to control their own future, and we are leaving in 12 months. We should have done that 3 years ago, but we still need to give them warning.

 

[Thales]

If there is a legitimate reason to go back in, then it won't be us alone.

The cost of going back will be far less than the cost of occupying 10 years fighting the jihad that is motivated by our presence there.

That's true. But why not focus on taking out Al Qaeda in Iraq while we're there, and then leave?

I wish someone would try to refocus our strategy less on being in the middle of a civil war and more on international terrorist groups.

 

[Iriemon]

That's true. But why not focus on taking out Al Qaeda in Iraq while we're there, and then leave?

I wish someone would try to refocus our strategy less on being in the middle of a civil war and more on international terrorist groups.

Because AQ only (or mostly) exists in Iraq because we are there. It is our presence their fueling the insurgency. And probably much of the civil war.

 

[Thales]

Because AQ only (or mostly) exists in Iraq because we are there. It is our presence their fueling the insurgency. And probably much of the civil war.

I agree... Al Qaeda wouldn't have a presence in Iraq, except that our invasion destabilized the country.

But even if we withdraw troops, the Al Qaeda camps will remain. While going back in is better than staying as long as Vietnam, I'd rather target them now. It seems to be the only area in which we are having success anyway; the Sunnis have realized that they don't like them either, and are actually working with us now.

I know that they aren't ideal allies, so you don't have to bother going into that point. But I think that we have a chance to disable Al Qaeda there now, and then leave and let the Iraqis deal with their own civil war, with our only remaining commitment a diplomatic one.

 

[Iriemon]

I agree... Al Qaeda wouldn't have a presence in Iraq, except that our invasion destabilized the country.

But even if we withdraw troops, the Al Qaeda camps will remain. While going back in is better than staying as long as Vietnam, I'd rather target them now. It seems to be the only area in which we are having success anyway; the Sunnis have realized that they don't like them either, and are actually working with us now.

I know that they aren't ideal allies, so you don't have to bother going into that point. But I think that we have a chance to disable Al Qaeda there now, and then leave and let the Iraqis deal with their own civil war, with our only remaining commitment a diplomatic one.

Every indication is that the Iraqis won't put up with AQ. Iraq, has more of a mixture of cutlures (Shias, Sunnis, Kurds and Christians) than other Muslim nations, and Iraqis in general were known for being more tolerant than other Muslim groups, from what I've read. They didn't put up with AQ before the US invasion. Even though the Sunnis are in a bitter fight for control, they aren't putting up with AQ now. I see little reason to believe they'll put up with them once we leave.

If they do, then at least we'll have an actual target.