• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What's your position on School Choice?

So that's where you develop other alternatives or you just get busy to fix the schools. Which BTW I suggested early on in the discussion. The real value of vouchers is choice and putting pressure on public schools to do better.
That was the original intent, yes, but what we found in Arizona is that kids and parents don't like to switch schools. They have friends, form bonds, etc. They just want their school to do better!

So, it's less like shopping at Walmart and Target, and more like wanting the same doctor for years so they know you and you trust them. Schools make money yes, so from a business perspective it works great and people get rich but, for the kids, it's not so great to have 4 or 5 elementary schools either because you left, or they closed as a failed business. IMO of course.
 
if you bothered to read the whole conversation you will see its who I responded to is the one that implied all teachers are the same,,

I just pointed out they arent,,

thanks for stopping by nd wasting my time,,
YW. Anytime!
 
Should taxpayers be able to get vouchers for school choice? This would allow parents to select the school they think would be best for their child's education. They would be able to use their tax dollars to fund a choice in the school their child attends!
Whats your opinion and why?

There should be no reason to have to choose a school, as a nation serious about educating their population, and reaping the rewards of having an educated population, would ensure that all schools have the same high standards no matter where they are.

The system you're considering would ensure disparity of education, making pulling one's self up by their bootstraps involve a spectrum of difficulty, depending primarily on where one lives. This leads to areas of perpetual poverty, crime, addiction, homelessness... pretty much what you have now, but somehow worse.

I would strongly suggest this is not good for your country, in case it's not totally obvious for some reason.
 
Two things: 1. local public schools are sacred to me in the way freedom of speech is sacred. Perhaps it is because I was a teacher in a teacher family that goes back to frontier Indiana. It isn't perfect, but it is ultimately more effective and more American than the alternatives. 2. public schools didn't occur to please parents. Public schools occurred to strengthen our communal values--youths educated to be effective citizens of our country.
 
Should taxpayers be able to get vouchers for school choice? This would allow parents to select the school they think would be best for their child's education. They would be able to use their tax dollars to fund a choice in the school their child attends!
Whats your opinion and why?
Voucher funded schools are fine as long as the private school allows the same curriculum and teachers unions that public schools have.
 
Two things: 1. local public schools are sacred to me in the way freedom of speech is sacred. Perhaps it is because I was a teacher in a teacher family that goes back to frontier Indiana. It isn't perfect, but it is ultimately more effective and more American than the alternatives. 2. public schools didn't occur to please parents. Public schools occurred to strengthen our communal values--youths educated to be effective citizens of our country.

I agree with the bolded, but not underlined part of your comment.

I strongly disagree with the bolded and underlined part of your comment.

The duty of a school is to EDUCATE students in various aspects of knowledge and communication. It is to teach reading, writing, and speech (communication aspects), Mathematics (understanding use of numbers, graphs, calculations, etc.) basic Economics (understanding of general and personal finance), History (to provide foundations on how things came to be), Science (basic understanding of biology, astronomy, physics, etc.), Physical Fitness/Health (maintaining personal fitness). Also sports, clubs, and student government and other group activities to teach kids about cooperation, social organization, and government. As a secondary benefit, it frees parents up to work and earn, while knowing their kids are being taken care of.

You seem to think schools are supposed to be indoctrination centers. The problem with this idea is shown by the efforts of a new strain of "educators" who seek to indoctrinate children into transgenderism, sexualization of kids, and the whole slew of WOKE ideological nonsense that only serves to divide people into more and more "special interest" groups placed in a hierarchy of oppression. To the devil with that nonsense!

I was a teacher for several years while working on my first graduate degree. I taught Life Science, History, and Physical Fitness. At no time did I ever consider myself a "teacher of communal values." IMO it is up to the parents to teach their own children whatever values they believe in.

Small wonder more and more parents are seeking alternatives to Public Schooling.
 
Last edited:
I agree with the bolded, but not underlined part of your comment.

I strongly disagree with the bolded and underlined part of your comment.

The duty of a school is to EDUCATE students in various aspects of knowledge and communication. It is to teach reading, writing, and speech (communication aspects), Mathematics (understanding use of numbers, graphs, calculations, etc.) basic Economics (understanding of general and personal finance), History (to provide foundations on how things came to be), Science (basic understanding of biology, astronomy, physics, etc.), Physical Fitness/Health (maintaining personal fitness). Also sports, clubs, and student government and other group activities to teach kids about cooperation, social organization, and government. As a secondary benefit, it frees parents up to work and earn, while knowing their kids are being taken care of.

You seem to think schools are supposed to be indoctrination centers. The problem with this idea is shown by the efforts of a new strain of "educators" who seek to indoctrinate children into transgenderism, sexualization of kids, and the whole slew of WOKE ideological nonsense that only serves to divide people into more and more "special interest" group placed in a hierarchy of oppression. To the devil with that nonsense!

I was a teacher for several years while working on my first graduate degree. I taught Life Science, History, and Physical Fitness. At no time did I ever consider myself a "teacher of communal values." IMO it is up to the parents to teach their own children whatever values they believe in.

Very well put. Precisely why so many kids are failing at school and at home. Teachers are supposed to do everything other peoples' kids. Their parents are under the impression that teachers are surrogate parents in their absence. And then they wonder why teaching is called a burnout profession.
 
Two things: 1. local public schools are sacred to me in the way freedom of speech is sacred. Perhaps it is because I was a teacher in a teacher family that goes back to frontier Indiana. It isn't perfect, but it is ultimately more effective and more American than the alternatives.
What do you have against parents making the choice not to put their children in public schools? What's not American about their choices?
2. public schools didn't occur to please parents. Public schools occurred to strengthen our communal values--youths educated to be effective citizens of our country.

Public schools have an enormous job, and that is to teach an approved educational curriculum. They do that and they do please parents. Get back to teaching, instead of trying to interfere with the parent's value system, or take the place of the child's parents. Schools are not indoctrination centers.
 
What do you have against parents making the choice not to put their children in public schools? What's not American about their choices?


Public schools have an enormous job, and that is to teach an approved educational curriculum. They do that and they do please parents. Get back to teaching, instead of trying to interfere with the parent's value system, or take the place of the child's parents. Schools are not indoctrination centers.

But schools are a prepatory step to being a useful member of society. I mean, how much of the curriculum you were taught do you / have you used after school was done? Evenutally we specialized, based on the type of career we were hoping to get, but all that general learning means a lot never gets used again.

Does that mean the curriculum is useless? No...the biggest skill learned in school is how to learn, along with how to complete, how to improve.

We are also taught our history, our laws, how our government works. I assume it's the same in the states. Why learn these things? To be a useful member of society, and be able to exist in it, of course.

A lot of what I see get called "indoctrination" is merely an extension of that. Kids need to learn that people different from their parents exist, and that they will be called on to not only tolerate them, but work along side them, buy or sell with them, share society with them. This isn't to make some trans person happy, or some gay dude, or whatever the latest conservative hysteria is about, it's creating a functional society based on the reality that people are different, and that a lot of our problems come not from those differences, but a lack of understanding.

What better venue to roll that out than in schools? Given the opposition to it, it's beyond clear that some parents are not up to that task. Why should society be less efficient and productive to protect the hatred of a few ignorant people?

Now if actual indoctrination is / were taking place, I would stand right beside you. No one should be told they MUST be gay or trans any more than they should be told they MUST be straight. But while the latter appears to be taking place, I've never seen a clear example of the former. Do you have any to bring up? I would be interested to see them if you do. I have, for example, been convinced that there are some books in libraries that clearly contain content that is not age appropriate, and I'm not for that either. Age rating should be respected, and restricted material should be controlled to ensure that only those

In lieu of that, though, I'm thinking that parental "Ew" isn't a good enough reason to stop teaching kids how to get along in world that grows more and more complicated and diverse. Certainly it wouldn't be the first time schools instructed children on morality. The part that some people appear to be having difficulty with is that we are / have been in a period of moral transition. Attempting to prevent kids from learning about that is simply hamstringing them in an inevitable future that will leave them behind as indifferently as it has their parents.

If one loves their children, they would not want to see that happen. The majority of this isn't about kids, it's about parents. I question the parenting ability of anyone who prioritizes their own prejudice over their child's ability to make a place for themselves in the world they live in.

Just my opinion, I'm interested in how you might respond to it.
 
What do you have against parents making the choice not to put their children in public schools? What's not American about their choices?
America is all about people making choices for themselves. Their children's education should be one of those choices they can make.

Public schools have an enormous job, and that is to teach an approved educational curriculum. They do that and they do please parents. Get back to teaching, instead of trying to interfere with the parent's value system, or take the place of the child's parents. Schools are not indoctrination centers.
They not only have an enormous job, they have a very important job.
Public education is also a government run monopoly, and, as is the case with all monopolies, sans any serious competition, its bureaucracy grows, its cost grows, and the quality of the deliverables (the education imparted) falls, hence school choice is required to compete on cost and quality of the deliverables.
 
But schools are a prepatory step to being a useful member of society. I mean, how much of the curriculum you were taught do you / have you used after school was done? Evenutally we specialized, based on the type of career we were hoping to get, but all that general learning means a lot never gets used again.

Does that mean the curriculum is useless? No...the biggest skill learned in school is how to learn, along with how to complete, how to improve.

We are also taught our history, our laws, how our government works. I assume it's the same in the states. Why learn these things? To be a useful member of society, and be able to exist in it, of course.

A lot of what I see get called "indoctrination" is merely an extension of that. Kids need to learn that people different from their parents exist, and that they will be called on to not only tolerate them, but work along side them, buy or sell with them, share society with them. This isn't to make some trans person happy, or some gay dude, or whatever the latest conservative hysteria is about, it's creating a functional society based on the reality that people are different, and that a lot of our problems come not from those differences, but a lack of understanding.

What better venue to roll that out than in schools? Given the opposition to it, it's beyond clear that some parents are not up to that task. Why should society be less efficient and productive to protect the hatred of a few ignorant people?

Now if actual indoctrination is / were taking place, I would stand right beside you. No one should be told they MUST be gay or trans any more than they should be told they MUST be straight. But while the latter appears to be taking place, I've never seen a clear example of the former. Do you have any to bring up? I would be interested to see them if you do. I have, for example, been convinced that there are some books in libraries that clearly contain content that is not age appropriate, and I'm not for that either. Age rating should be respected, and restricted material should be controlled to ensure that only those

In lieu of that, though, I'm thinking that parental "Ew" isn't a good enough reason to stop teaching kids how to get along in world that grows more and more complicated and diverse. Certainly it wouldn't be the first time schools instructed children on morality. The part that some people appear to be having difficulty with is that we are / have been in a period of moral transition. Attempting to prevent kids from learning about that is simply hamstringing them in an inevitable future that will leave them behind as indifferently as it has their parents.

If one loves their children, they would not want to see that happen. The majority of this isn't about kids, it's about parents. I question the parenting ability of anyone who prioritizes their own prejudice over their child's ability to make a place for themselves in the world they live in.

Just my opinion, I'm interested in how you might respond to it.

I already responded to it above. Not much more I want to add to that.
 
Post number please? Sorry, I'm on my phone, help a dumb canuck out. :)

In my post that you replied to. While I respect the effort you put in trying to persuade me that my opinion is wrong, I'm not budging on my position. Have a great afternoon, Nate. Didn't mean to brush you off. I am in a hurry right now.
 
In my post that you replied to. While I respect the effort you put in trying to persuade me that my opinion is wrong, I'm not budging on my position. Have a great afternoon, Nate. Didn't mean to brush you off. I am in a hurry right now.

Fair enough. Another time perhaps, as I'd be interested in what benefit you see from not preparing kids for a more diverse world.
 
Should taxpayers be able to get vouchers for school choice? This would allow parents to select the school they think would be best for their child's education. They would be able to use their tax dollars to fund a choice in the school their child attends!
Whats your opinion and why?
Depends on what is meant by it.

CO has school choice, meaning you can put your kids into any public school district you want even if it's outside your district. Now if you do choose another school other than your default district, there won't be bus service, but you can do that. If you want your kid to go to a different school, you can.

Now, that doesn't include vouchers for private school. IMO if you have a public school system, then you fund the public school system. School vouchers remove funding for public schools and move it to private. You can choose to put your kid into private school, but that's your choice and your responsibility at that point. There's a public option to exercise and if you want something above that, then you have to pay for it. That's about it. I see no benefit in defunding public schools to move to rich, private schools.
 
I think public funding should go to public entities.
 
In my post that you replied to. While I respect the effort you put in trying to persuade me that my opinion is wrong, I'm not budging on my position. Have a great afternoon, Nate. Didn't mean to brush you off. I am in a hurry right now.

lol...and PS, the day I believe I have convinced you that any opinion you hold is wrong is the day I retire from debating, having no more mountains left to climb... ;) lol
 
no. They need to pay public school teachers a competitive wage when compared to other States and quit misdirecting tax dollars to the voucher program.

"John Ward, who runs the state’s ESA program, told the ABC15 reporters.

Educational opportunities like ….

Ninja training! Blasius and Archer report that we spent $350,000 at ninja warrior training centers, trampoline parks and climbing gyms. Another $1.2 million went for martial arts training.

Snowboarding! We paid for more 100 passes to Arizona Snowbowl last winter. No doubt, the lucky “students” were studying gravity when they hit the slopes.

We bought an assortment of appliances to freeze-dry food that cost an average of $3,000, a $10,000 purchase at a sewing machine company and one lucky kid wound up with $3,400 in golf equipment.

We spent $57,000 on Universal Yums, a company that sends snacks and trivia from a different country each month for $15 to $41 a box. (I call dibs on the hazelnut truffles.)
Holy shit. That state needs regulatin.
 
Considering what kind of ****ed up homeschooling we are forced to allow in Ohio im getting soured on homeschooling as well.
 
But schools are a prepatory step to being a useful member of society. I mean, how much of the curriculum you were taught do you / have you used after school was done? Evenutally we specialized, based on the type of career we were hoping to get, but all that general learning means a lot never gets used again.

Does that mean the curriculum is useless? No...the biggest skill learned in school is how to learn, along with how to complete, how to improve.

We are also taught our history, our laws, how our government works. I assume it's the same in the states. Why learn these things? To be a useful member of society, and be able to exist in it, of course.

A lot of what I see get called "indoctrination" is merely an extension of that. Kids need to learn that people different from their parents exist, and that they will be called on to not only tolerate them, but work along side them, buy or sell with them, share society with them. This isn't to make some trans person happy, or some gay dude, or whatever the latest conservative hysteria is about, it's creating a functional society based on the reality that people are different, and that a lot of our problems come not from those differences, but a lack of understanding.

What better venue to roll that out than in schools? Given the opposition to it, it's beyond clear that some parents are not up to that task. Why should society be less efficient and productive to protect the hatred of a few ignorant people?

Now if actual indoctrination is / were taking place, I would stand right beside you. No one should be told they MUST be gay or trans any more than they should be told they MUST be straight. But while the latter appears to be taking place, I've never seen a clear example of the former. Do you have any to bring up? I would be interested to see them if you do. I have, for example, been convinced that there are some books in libraries that clearly contain content that is not age appropriate, and I'm not for that either. Age rating should be respected, and restricted material should be controlled to ensure that only those

In lieu of that, though, I'm thinking that parental "Ew" isn't a good enough reason to stop teaching kids how to get along in world that grows more and more complicated and diverse. Certainly it wouldn't be the first time schools instructed children on morality. The part that some people appear to be having difficulty with is that we are / have been in a period of moral transition. Attempting to prevent kids from learning about that is simply hamstringing them in an inevitable future that will leave them behind as indifferently as it has their parents.

If one loves their children, they would not want to see that happen. The majority of this isn't about kids, it's about parents. I question the parenting ability of anyone who prioritizes their own prejudice over their child's ability to make a place for themselves in the world they live in.

Just my opinion, I'm interested in how you might respond to it.
I agree.
 
America is all about people making choices for themselves. Their children's education should be one of those choices they can make.
I have some disagreement. I don't believe that making choices for yourself is what America is about. America is also about having an educated society that understands its government, can read with comprehension, can do math, knows the basics of our countries history, etc. Schools should teach reasoning and the ability to make reasoning choices, but that's not what America is all about.
 
no. They need to pay public school teachers a competitive wage when compared to other States and quit misdirecting tax dollars to the voucher program.

"John Ward, who runs the state’s ESA program, told the ABC15 reporters.

Educational opportunities like ….

Ninja training! Blasius and Archer report that we spent $350,000 at ninja warrior training centers, trampoline parks and climbing gyms. Another $1.2 million went for martial arts training.

Snowboarding! We paid for more 100 passes to Arizona Snowbowl last winter. No doubt, the lucky “students” were studying gravity when they hit the slopes.

We bought an assortment of appliances to freeze-dry food that cost an average of $3,000, a $10,000 purchase at a sewing machine company and one lucky kid wound up with $3,400 in golf equipment.

We spent $57,000 on Universal Yums, a company that sends snacks and trivia from a different country each month for $15 to $41 a box. (I call dibs on the hazelnut truffles.)
Recall the IRS scandal where do nothing bureaucrats treated themselves to 5 star luxury suites?
The image of a guy in an elevated hot tub shaped like a campaign flute drinking campaign is what sticks in my mind.

The above sure sounds like that, and the entitlement attitude that went with it.
 
Last edited:
I was curious concerning how public schools are funded. So I did a search. And this is what I found.
It is an interesting read for anyone who is interested in how public schools are funded. This link provides an abundance of information.


Snippets from link…

Public schools in the US serve about 49.5 million students from pre-K to 12th grade. But how does it all get funded?

It's primarily a combination of funding from local and state governments, along with a smaller percentage from the federal government. Here's a breakdown.

Where does school funding come from?​

In the 2019-2020 school year, 47.5% of funding came from state governments, 44.9% came from local governments, and the federal government provided about 7.6% of school funding.

How are charter schools funded?​

Public charter schools are funded by state and local governments and may also receive federal funding through Department of Education Charter School Program grants. Charter schools are independently run under an agreement (charter) with the state, district, or another entity. School choice programs offered in some states give parents the option to enroll their kids in charter schools, magnet schools, or opt for home-schooling.
 
Back
Top Bottom