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What's Wrong with this Picture?

We get that you are pro-fetus.....just not pro-born

What a steaming crock of ****.

Please cite when I have stated that born humans should be owned and killed on their owner's whim.

If you can't put up, then kindly do the other thing.
 
What a steaming crock of ****.

Please cite when I have stated that born humans should be owned and killed on their owner's whim.

If you can't put up, then kindly do the other thing.

Well, if born individuals cannot access usual and customary care in a timely manner they can die. I get that you do not believe there should be any access required.
 
How many fetuses are 35 years old?

:lol:

I use to be. But each year I shed my skin and turn into a year older fetus. Actually, I kidding.

The resulting zygote from my conception came with a built in maturity air/development pump and it just keeps pumping away as I get older and I keep getting more mature, but sadly the pump eventually breaks or wears out.
 
Born individuals are dehumanized all the time. Making them plead for adequate healthcare to survive, allow them to live on the streets while others big worry is whether to get their third car with or without the heated seat.

That's a little either/or-ish for me, and the hyperbole trivializes how terrible dehumanization is. Any time, as I've already said, humans are dehumanized for whatever reason, it's sad. And terrible.
 
That's a little either/or-ish for me, and the hyperbole trivializes how terrible dehumanization is. Any time, as I've already said, humans are dehumanized for whatever reason, it's sad. And terrible.

Anti choicers dehumanize women by wanting to force us to gestate and give birth against our will.
 
Anti choicers dehumanize women by wanting to force us to gestate and give birth against our will.

We get that you are pro-fetus.....just not pro-born


More garbage bull**** rhetoric from the both of you as usual.

Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women.
 
More garbage bull**** rhetoric from the both of you as usual.

Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women.

Just because you say it does not make it true. Funny how you claim to be pro choice but you don't take issue with anti choicers saying pro choicers dehumanize the unborn, but you get upset when a pro choicer says anti choicers dehumanize women......
 
Just because you say it does not make it true.

Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women. In order to really dehumanize women, pro lifers would need to claim along the lines women are non human even though science say's so otherwise.


Funny how you claim to be pro choice.

Yes I support abortion for the full nine months of pregnancy and support legal infanticide. You already knew this for years and I reminded you before in your basement thread about me.


but you don't take issue with anti choicers saying pro choicers dehumanize the unborn,.

It depends. If pro choicers want to claim the unborn are not humans or heck not even human, they can claim you are dehumanizing.


but you get upset when a pro choicer says anti choicers dehumanize women......

Because the accusation is often wrong like it is in this particular case. Pro lifers accept the scientific reality that women are humans and are 100% percent human just like prenatal humans are.
 
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Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women. In order to really dehumanize women, pro lifers would need to claim along the lines women are non human even though science say's so otherwise.




Yes I support abortion for the full nine months of pregnancy and support legal infanticide. You already knew this for years and I reminded you before in your basement thread about me.




It depends. If pro choicers want to claim the unborn are not humans or heck not even human, they can claim you are dehumanizing.




Because the accusation is often wrong like it is in this particular case. Pro lifers accept the scientific reality that women are humans and are 100% percent human just like prenatal humans are.

Once again, just because you say something does not mean it's true.
 
More garbage bull**** rhetoric from the both of you as usual.

Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women.

It is not the women that I see as dehumanized...it is the born people in general that die of treatable diseases because of lack of adequate access to health care, YMMV
 
It is not the women that I see as dehumanized...it is the born people in general that die of treatable diseases because of lack of adequate access to health care, YMMV

That's something that can be worked on. Now back to the abortion debate where the debate is mainly over the status of prenatal humans and if women should be allowed to continue to kill them for whatever reason they see fit.......................
 
More garbage bull**** rhetoric from the both of you as usual.

Preventing women from killing prenatal humans for whatever reason they see fit is not connected to ''dehumanizing'' women.

What is "garbage bull" is you continuing to claim that a zygote is a human despite the fact that your arguments trying to justify that claim have all been blown out of the water.
 
What is "garbage bull" is you continuing to claim that a zygote is a human despite the fact that your arguments trying to justify that claim have all been blown out of the water.

I never made arguments to begin with. No need to make arguments when the science has already been settled on what the unborn are. Not even prominent pro choice philosophers deny this.

A few examples From my notebooks:

''It is possible to give ''human being'' a precise meaning. We can use it as equivalent to 'member of the species homo sapiens.' Whether a being is a member of a species is something that can be determined scientifically, by an examination of the nature of the chromosomes in the cells of living organisms. In this sense, there is no doubt that from the moments of it's existence an zygote conceived from human sperm and eggs is a human being.''

( Peter singer, Practical Ethics, 2nd ed, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1993, pp.85-86)


''Perhaps the most straightforward relation between you and me on the one hand and every human fetus on the other is this: All are living members of the same species, Homo Sapiens. A fetus after all is simply a human at a very early stage in his or her development.''

(David Boonin, A Defense of Abortion, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2003, p. 20.)

The only thing left really is the philosophical debate. You'll be put on my ignore list until you decide to focus on the relevant parts of the abortion debate. Never would I thought that giving you a reminder that the unborn are humans like the rest of us, you would decide to go into full debate mode on stuff that has already be done and over with for decades.
 
I never made arguments to begin with. No need to make arguments when the science has already been settled on what the unborn are. Not even prominent pro choice philosophers deny this.

A few examples From my notebooks:

''It is possible to give ''human being'' a precise meaning. We can use it as equivalent to 'member of the species homo sapiens.' Whether a being is a member of a species is something that can be determined scientifically, by an examination of the nature of the chromosomes in the cells of living organisms. In this sense, there is no doubt that from the moments of it's existence an zygote conceived from human sperm and eggs is a human being.''

( Peter singer, Practical Ethics, 2nd ed, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 1993, pp.85-86)


''Perhaps the most straightforward relation between you and me on the one hand and every human fetus on the other is this: All are living members of the same species, Homo Sapiens. A fetus after all is simply a human at a very early stage in his or her development.''

(David Boonin, A Defense of Abortion, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2003, p. 20.)

The only thing left really is the philosophical debate. You'll be put on my ignore list until you decide to focus on the relevant parts of the abortion debate. Never would I thought that giving you a reminder that the unborn are humans like the rest of us, you would decide to go into full debate mode on stuff that has already be done and over with for decades.

Just because there are people out there who make unsupported claims (zygote is a Homo sapiens/human) does not mean the science is settled.

The fact that there are Developmental Biology textbooks such as http://science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/BioEthics/Articles/Whendoeshumanlifebegin.pdf that give 1 scientific perspective that agrees with your claim and, 4 others that do not, proves that the science is not settled. Clearly there are people that disagree.

The quotes you give do not even attempt to provide proof or any explanation for why their claim is true. It is just an opinion. The textbook I gave you gives an "explanation" of each perspective.

You have subject matter experts such as this Ph.D Biologist/Prof from the U of Miami (Dana Krempels)

I don't know any biologist who would classify a single cell from a Homo sapiens as a Homo sapiens. *Even a zygote, which may have the *potential* to become a Homo sapiens, but is not an organism by any stretch of the imagination, is not considered an individual Homo sapiens by any members of the scientific community that I know.

Biology: Classification of Homo Sapien cells as HS themselves, homo sapien, sex cells

Your claim "the science is settled" is demonstrably false.
 
Calling a single cell a helpless innocent is what is stupid, but on par with the moronic crap you always spew.

The prenatal human is way more then one cell when killed and thats where the vast majority of abortions take place.
 
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The prenatal human is way more then one cell when killed and thats where the vast majority of abortions take place.

This does not change the fact that your "the science is settled" claim is completely false.

Further, it is disingenuous for you to continue to spout this claim given it has been proven false such that you run and hide from posts which prove your claim is false.

Once you acknowledge that "Experts Disagree", then you can be thought of as a rational actor.

Until then ....
 
The Constitution does not include the unborn as persons.

The Founders did not believe that women and blacks were created free.
In fact we needed to add Constitutional amendments giving rights to blacks and women.






Roe v Wade - edited text

Where does the Constitution say it does not include the unborn?

Roe v Wade only gave a woman the right to abortion for medical reasons. It did not give them the right to kill the unborn. There is a distinct difference.

Roe v Wade specifically says the health of the mother MUST be balanced against the right to life.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 162 ("We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a non-resident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life.").

Which means all of the arguments about a clump of cells, not being a person, reproductive health are all bogus.

Poisoning and dismembering an unborn child should be illegal, as well as abortion form the purpose of avoiding being a parent. And according to all surveys done of woman seeking and getting an abortion most are done for financial burden reasons and a belief that the father will not be involved. Which means none of those abortions fall within Roe v Wade.


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Claiming attacking a helpless innocent is self-defense is the most ludicrously stupid thing you pro-aborts say, and that is a long ****ing list.

Words mean nothing to you people. You don't speak any rational language.


Your hyperbole about pregnancy is noted and rejected as equally moronic.

You call abortion an "attack" and a fetus "innocent" and you think I'M the one using hyperbole. You can't use the language of violence to describe a medical procedure and you can't use the rhetoric of judgement to describe a fetus. The way you choose to engage on this issue is as dishonest, deluded and as emotionally hysterical as imaginable.

I'm disgusted by the way you ignore the female risk of life-long injury and death, inherent in pregnancy. Why on earth do you continue to frame this issue in a way that is so ignorant and dismissive of women? Where do you think fetuses come from, heaven? They don't. Real women risk EVERYTHING in pregnancy. Deal with reality for once.
 
Even the female ones? :roll:

Yes, it's wrong of Jay and others to accuse me of "hating" humans when he blatantly ignores a very real physical threat that half of them may endure in reproduction.

And abortion is self-defense? :roll:

How is it not? I've known two women in my life who DIED in childbirth. I've known others who suffered physical disorders directly related to pregnancy. Quit rolling your eyes and face the facts like a rational, empathetic human, if you can. Women bleed out EVERY day because something goes wrong in pregnancy and it's not always predictable. Therefore, the threat of death hangs over their heads in pregnancy and I, for one, support their right to decide if they want to risk it.

With risk and responsibility should come rights. What you and yours propose is that women be prisoners of their biology while you selfishly and ignorantly minimize the actual threats in order to make hyperbolic arguments that don't even frame the question honestly. I don't think it's a coincidence that the anti-abortion crowd is largely the religious because they are the group who depend so heavily upon never having their opinions questioned. Any rational human can see that abortion happens to women, not to fetuses.

What I will never understand, irrespective of your stance on elective abortion, is dehumanizing humans. From its one-celled conception on, human is human.

Being human and being A human are two different things. A pile of **** in the woods may be human **** but it's not A human. Until it's born, until a fetus no longer threatens the health and well being of a woman, it is not A human. She, however, IS one and deserves our protection, both legally and morally.

Sad business any time any human is marginalized or considered of lesser worth than another.

Yes, let us all weep for the women who have died to fulfill a stupid religious gender hierarchy that has treated women like baby makers, who suffer a god-imposed mandate to suffer and bleed in the service of fruitfulness, rather than rights-endowed, equal citizens deserving of justice.
 
Where does the Constitution say it does not include the unborn?

Roe v Wade only gave a woman the right to abortion for medical reasons. It did not give them the right to kill the unborn. There is a distinct difference.

Roe v Wade specifically says the health of the mother MUST be balanced against the right to life.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 162 ("We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a non-resident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life.").

Which means all of the arguments about a clump of cells, not being a person, reproductive health are all bogus.

Poisoning and dismembering an unborn child should be illegal, as well as abortion form the purpose of avoiding being a parent. And according to all surveys done of woman seeking and getting an abortion most are done for financial burden reasons and a belief that the father will not be involved. Which means none of those abortions fall within Roe v Wade.
For ****s sake educate yourself before making moronic assertions.
 
Where does the Constitution say it does not include the unborn?

Roe v Wade only gave a woman the right to abortion for medical reasons. It did not give them the right to kill the unborn. There is a distinct difference.

Roe v Wade specifically says the health of the mother MUST be balanced against the right to life.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113, 162 ("We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a non-resident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life.").

Which means all of the arguments about a clump of cells, not being a person, reproductive health are all bogus.

Poisoning and dismembering an unborn child should be illegal, as well as abortion form the purpose of avoiding being a parent. And according to all surveys done of woman seeking and getting an abortion most are done for financial burden reasons and a belief that the father will not be involved. Which means none of those abortions fall within Roe v Wade.


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You make a number of flawed assumptions. First is the claim that the statement "protecting the potentiality of human life" is saying the zygote is a human/person.

Saying that there is a "potential for human life" is not the same as saying "human life exists now". Further the term "human life" has the word "human" as a descriptive adjective. A "Person" is a noun "A human".

Even if we were to claim "well the court meant .. a potential person" it makes no difference as a potential person is not a person.

Your second flawed comment is when you say "the constitution does not say that the unborn are not persons".

This is fallacy. Just because the constitution does not say "the unborn are not persons" does not mean that the constitution intended for the unborn to be included.

Just because we can not prove that the moon around Pluto is not made of green cheese - does not make it so.

Other arguments for the idea that the constitution did not include the Unborn was that Slaves at the time were not considered persons.

The best constitutional argument however is not from the constitution. It is from the principles under which the constitution is to be interpreted which are found in the DOI.

Individual rights and freedoms/liberty are put "Above" the legitimate authority of Gov't. This means that the Gov't is not to make any law that messes with individual liberty.

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

In this case we have a conflict between the liberty of the woman and the liberty of the mighty zygote or the Fetus.

In such cases the court must balance the conflicting rights. On one side you have the rights of the woman which clearly have a high value.

On the other side you have the rights of the mighty zygote. How do we value the rights of the zygote ?

Since the constitution says nothing (as you point out) we have to value (I don't know).

Clearly the value of the rights of the woman outweighs "We don't know".

It would be anathema to the Rule of Law and the principles on which this nation was founded to allow the Gov't (be it Federal or State) to restrict someone's freedom on the basis of "We don't know".
 
Yes, it's wrong of Jay and others to accuse me of "hating" humans when he blatantly ignores a very real physical threat that half of them may endure in reproduction.



How is it not? I've known two women in my life who DIED in childbirth. I've known others who suffered physical disorders directly related to pregnancy. Quit rolling your eyes and face the facts like a rational, empathetic human, if you can. Women bleed out EVERY day because something goes wrong in pregnancy and it's not always predictable. Therefore, the threat of death hangs over their heads in pregnancy and I, for one, support their right to decide if they want to risk it.

With risk and responsibility should come rights. What you and yours propose is that women be prisoners of their biology while you selfishly and ignorantly minimize the actual threats in order to make hyperbolic arguments that don't even frame the question honestly. I don't think it's a coincidence that the anti-abortion crowd is largely the religious because they are the group who depend so heavily upon never having their opinions questioned. Any rational human can see that abortion happens to women, not to fetuses.



Being human and being A human are two different things. A pile of **** in the woods may be human **** but it's not A human. Until it's born, until a fetus no longer threatens the health and well being of a woman, it is not A human. She, however, IS one and deserves our protection, both legally and morally.



Yes, let us all weep for the women who have died to fulfill a stupid religious gender hierarchy that has treated women like baby makers, who suffer a god-imposed mandate to suffer and bleed in the service of fruitfulness, rather than rights-endowed, equal citizens deserving of justice.

I just love it when a guy tells me all about the dangers of pregnancy. ;)
 
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