What's Wrong with Socialism?

[Robertinfremont]

Boston Latin School was founded in 1635 and is both the first public school and oldest existing school in the United States.

The first free taxpayer-supported public school in North America, the Mather School, was opened in Dorchester, Massachusetts, in 1639.

All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory; other New England colonies followed this example. Similar statutes were adopted in other colonies in the 1640s and 1650s. The schools were all male and all white, with few facilities for girls.

In the 18th century, "common schools" were established; students of all ages were under the control of one teacher in one room. Although they were publicly supplied at the local level, they were not free. Students' families were charged tuition or "rate bills."

By the mid-19th century, the role of the schools in New England had expanded to such an extent that they took over many of the educational tasks traditionally handled by parents.
Wikipedia. History of education in the United States - Wikipedia

How wonderful it would have been had all the people of America lived in those small areas to go to public school.
I feel like a good laugh. I was not speaking of a community, but the system of America.

 

[weaver2]

Stand up and defend socialism. Some of you must want to.

I’m an American living in Sweden. Here’s why I came to embrace the higher taxes.By Tom Heberlein

I was visiting the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore, a 23-island archipelago in Lake Superior, when suddenly I found myself pining for Stockholm. Why? Because standing on the boat dock in Bayfield, Wisconsin, I realized that the 23,000-island Stockholm archipelago is more accessible to me, an American, than my own 23-island national park.
These wilderness islands with haunting sea caves are accessible only by tour boat at a cost of $151 for a family of two adults and three children. There is no free 15-minute ride across the strait to Basswood Island........It seems that Americans would rather have inaccessibility to public places and crumbling infrastructure than pay more in taxes, right?

Here are six reasons I have come to love Swedish taxes.
1) Swedish income taxes are not much higher than US taxes......US critics say that Swedes pay 56 percent — so the government takes over half of your money. This is not true — 56 percent is the marginal tax rate, i.e. what high earners pay on income over a certain amount in both state and local taxes. Only 15 percent of Swedes pay tax at this rate. It turns out the average Swede pays less than 27 percent of his or her income in direct taxes. As I've written elsewhere, my wife and I pay about 22 percent of our US income in taxes. Our Swedish income tax was 31 percent. So, yes, our income taxes in Sweden were higher than in the US, but ......you get far more for your taxes than you do in the US. In Sweden, college is free and students get a housing stipend.

2) Tax forms come already filled out
Our US federal and state forms tax forms were more than 30 pages long last year.........In Sweden, the four-page tax form comes in the mail already filled out. .....we "sign" with a text from our phones. In 15 minutes we are done.

3) There is no property tax
When the conservative government, favoring lower taxes, came to power in Sweden in 2006 one of its first steps was abolish the property tax and replace it with a fixed fee. The real estate fee for services is 7,112 SEK per house ($825 at current exchange rates).
This is the same for everyone no matter what the assessed value of the dwelling. The fee is $12 a month for our co-op apartment in Stockholm. If we owned the same property in Madison, our taxes would be $18,000 a year.

4) Sales taxes in Sweden are higher — but less noticeable
If something costs 100 kronor, you pay the 100 kronor! Only when you look at the receipt do you see that it costs 80 kronor and 20 kronor for VAT (value-added tax).

5) We get cash instead of deductions
If the Swedish government wants you to do something, they give you the money. For example: Having children is good for the society and costs parents money. In the US, you get a deduction on your income tax for dependents. In Sweden, you get a check every month and you can use it to buy shoes. For one child you get $120 a month and up to $620 for four children. Every parent gets a check.

6) High taxes give me more choices and freedoms
tax dollars (in Sweden)... are used to provide collective goods that are beyond the reach of any individual and that benefit everyone.
*college gives the best and the brightest the opportunity to attend any school they choose — equalizing opportunity on merit, not parents' wealth
*a hiking trail system In Stockholm .... I get to use it for free and have more choices for hiking
*national parks, accessible and free to everybody.
*public transportation system.
*health insurance high-quality care a short walk from my home, same-day appointments

I am not burdened by Swedish taxes. In fact, paying more allows me to increase my quality of life in a big way.

I’m an American living in Sweden. Here’s why I came to embrace the higher taxes. - Vox

 

[danielpalos]

What are the various forms of capitalism?

Does it matter? Government is "socialism" and we merely need to learn how to Use capitalism for all of its worth in modern times.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Socialism is the science of putting all your eggs in one basket. Now, way back in the old days socialism was bad because baskets were poorly engineered and the people carrying them were generally uneducated. These days socialism is greatly improved because we have more highly educated egg carriers and better engineered baskets and phone apps that advise us on stacking our eggs so that they don't fall over. Now that we no longer have to rely on God to protect our eggs and can rely on scientists to pick out only the best eggs and transport them in the best way possible we can have the best socialism possible....once we get rid of all those deplorables who keep trying to trip us up. You simply can't have good quality socialism if people are allowed to run around all independent minded and stuff.

Yeah Venezuela did great! Soon they may have milk and bread again.

 

[bluesmoke]

People in America expect capitalism to burp occasionally.

But do you expect that from Socialism too?

Actually multiply the worst of Capitalism by 1000 and you end up with Socialism.

You have never seen a burp like the Socialist Burp. I mean totally empty stores. Multiply the current socialist alarm over Corona Viris by a million and you get what you can expect from socialism.

Notice how no socialist mentions the burps? The food shortages, the shortages of medicine and even money?

Some of you experts on Socialism, show the Democrats why socialism is their ruin.

An OP on "What's wrong with Robertinfremont" could be backed-up with more supporting fact than your OP.

 

[Robertinfremont]

I’m an American living in Sweden. Here’s why I came to embrace the higher taxes.By Tom Heberlein

Here are six reasons I have come to love Swedish taxes.
1) Swedish income taxes are not much higher than US taxes......US critics say that Swedes pay 56 percent — so the government takes over half of your money. This is not true — 56 percent is the marginal tax rate, i.e. what high earners pay on income over a certain amount in both state and local taxes. Only 15 percent of Swedes pay tax at this rate. It turns out the average Swede pays less than 27 percent of his or her income in direct taxes. As I've written elsewhere, my wife and I pay about 22 percent of our US income in taxes. Our Swedish income tax was 31 percent. So, yes, our income taxes in Sweden were higher than in the US, but ......you get far more for your taxes than you do in the US. In Sweden, college is free and students get a housing stipend.

2) Tax forms come already filled out
Our US federal and state forms tax forms were more than 30 pages long last year.........In Sweden, the four-page tax form comes in the mail already filled out. .....we "sign" with a text from our phones. In 15 minutes we are done.

3) There is no property tax
When the conservative government, favoring lower taxes, came to power in Sweden in 2006 one of its first steps was abolish the property tax and replace it with a fixed fee. The real estate fee for services is 7,112 SEK per house ($825 at current exchange rates).
This is the same for everyone no matter what the assessed value of the dwelling. The fee is $12 a month for our co-op apartment in Stockholm. If we owned the same property in Madison, our taxes would be $18,000 a year.

4) Sales taxes in Sweden are higher — but less noticeable
If something costs 100 kronor, you pay the 100 kronor! Only when you look at the receipt do you see that it costs 80 kronor and 20 kronor for VAT (value-added tax).

5) We get cash instead of deductions
If the Swedish government wants you to do something, they give you the money. For example: Having children is good for the society and costs parents money. In the US, you get a deduction on your income tax for dependents. In Sweden, you get a check every month and you can use it to buy shoes. For one child you get $120 a month and up to $620 for four children. Every parent gets a check.

6) High taxes give me more choices and freedoms
tax dollars (in Sweden)... are used to provide collective goods that are beyond the reach of any individual and that benefit everyone.
*college gives the best and the brightest the opportunity to attend any school they choose — equalizing opportunity on merit, not parents' wealth
*a hiking trail system In Stockholm .... I get to use it for free and have more choices for hiking
*national parks, accessible and free to everybody.
*public transportation system.
*health insurance high-quality care a short walk from my home, same-day appointments

I am not burdened by Swedish taxes. In fact, paying more allows me to increase my quality of life in a big way.

I’m an American living in Sweden. Here’s why I came to embrace the higher taxes. - Vox

Even Sweden is sick of being used by Americans to compare two countries.

So let's chat about that tiny country.

Europe :: Sweden — The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency

almost three times the size of Georgia; slightly larger than California

A military power during the 17th century, Sweden has not participated in any war for two centuries. An armed neutrality was preserved in both World Wars. Since then, Sweden has pursued a successful economic formula consisting of a capitalist system intermixed with substantial welfare elements. Sweden joined the EU in 1995, but the public rejected the introduction of the euro in a 2003 referendum. The share of Sweden’s population born abroad increased from 11.3% in 2000 to 19.1% in 2018.

Population:
10,202,491 (July 2020 est.)
country comparison to the world: 91

California has 40 million officially and I believe well past 5 million illegals

I would not dare use what one US state charges to visit islands as my comparison.

My question? Why live in Wisconsin when one can simply live in Sweden?

Did he forget to mention how much closer to the Arctic Circle Sweden is vs Wisconsin?

Last, don't forget, Sweden has never had to endure President Obama as their president.

Trump would work for Sweden to get their taxes into line with say Texas.

One can move to A number of States in America and pay no income taxes to the state.

 

[Robertinfremont]

One more thing aout Sweden.

Latest figures from the CIA Factbook.

GDP - real growth rate:This entry gives GDP growth on an annual basis adjusted for inflation and expressed as a percent. The growth rates are year-over-year, and not compounded.GDP - real growth rate field listing
2.1% (2017 est.)
2.7% (2016 est.)
4.5% (2015 est.)

Wages are stagnant there too.

Europe :: Sweden — The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency

 

[danielpalos]

...a lack of Quantum Supremacy for economic simulation purposes?

Only the right wing appeals to ignorance of the law, Constitutional or otherwise, economics, ethics, and morals, but expect to be taken seriously simply Because they are on the Right Wing.

Higher paid labor pays more in Taxes and creates more in Demand, and wages should outpace inflation on an Institutional basis for even Individual labor market participants.

Solving simple poverty means More people will be circulating capital and generating that tax revenue for local economies.

 

[CharisRose]

Where do capitalist get the resources to produce the products they sell? If you sell apples, what makes those apples on the tree yours to sell?

Washington Apple Commission

Roseann

 

[danielpalos]

How cheeky of you.

 

[Good4Nothin]

You can't lay claim to property and resources to begin with without force either...

:shrug:

Oh really? You can't buy or earn property? You can't discover resources? You think everyone who has anything stole it? So it's ok for communist revolutionaries to steal it back?

 

[Good4Nothin]

Just because you paid for it doesn't mean it wasn't claimed by force. How would someone come to own property in the first place? The original owner, who did he get it from? The very idea of property is founded in the belief of force. Its why our constitution not only gives us the right to property but the right to defend it by force. But what makes our claim valid? Take the issue of illegal immigration and national boarders. What gives us a right to say this land, America belongs to us and we will keep you from it by force?

Oh you know, you are right. No one should own anything. Even animals originally shoved other animals aside. And what about plants? They aren't as perfectly innocent as you think. One plant will shade another and deprive it of sunlight, causing it to die or to stunt it's growth. That is horrible.

Let us put an end to this violence. All property from now on will be owned and controlled by the good enlightened ones. They will determine what humans and animals can inhabit what land, and what resources they can make use of. The good enlightened ones (GEOs) will distribute food and clothes (for the human animals) so none will ever go without.

And that will be the end of force and conflict! What a simple and obvious way to bring peace and eternal prosperity to the planet. All creatures will thank you GEOs forever.

 

[Good4Nothin]

You seem to hate the idea, but all of my clients paid for the property they purchased from earlier owners. Think this over. If you are right, all renters live in property they took over using force.

And don't forget, the native Americans took the land from other animals. Deer were happily grazing, wolves were hunting prey. The native Americans were not native, they came here, and stole the land from the other animals.

And those animals stole it from animals that came earlier. And ultimately, all was stolen from the original one-celled microbes. And it's time we returned the land to its rightful original owners!

 

[Robertinfremont]

That's rich from someone who is in a fox news trance, you have something in common with your new personal Jesus. :lol:

Isn't Media Matters a branch of RT out of Russia?

 

[Robertinfremont]

And don't forget, the native Americans took the land from other animals. Deer were happily grazing, wolves were hunting prey. The native Americans were not native, they came here, and stole the land from the other animals.

And those animals stole it from animals that came earlier. And ultimately, all was stolen from the original one-celled microbes. And it's time we returned the land to its rightful original owners!

You actually are also making an outstanding anti tax case for all of us. Thanks.

It does not belong to Government and they never earned our incomes.

 

[Robertinfremont]

Oh really? You can't buy or earn property? You can't discover resources? You think everyone who has anything stole it? So it's ok for communist revolutionaries to steal it back?

Most that discuss like the Master does do not mind theft done by our Government under the guise of Taxes.

 

[CharisRose]

But you don't make things out of thin air. You keep skipping over this part. Say you make furniture, where do you get your wood? Where does your supplier? Why does the land those trees grow on belong to them? Because they say so? What if I don't agree with them?



America in its beginning seized land, seized people and resources. Just because you can now buy and sell that land doesn't change the fact that the original claim to the land was made with force.

Type of force practiced by socialists.

Turning a Capitalist Country into a Socialist Utopia.

Wait patiently as all the people use the capitalistic system to build up their personal wealth.

Once that wealth has been built up then make the claim that they acquired it by force.

Then promote the Socialist Utopia of shared wealth by all of the people equally.

Having duped the people.

Then use the Force of Government to seize those people’s wealth to redistribute to other people equally...

Via...Private Business (large and small) take overs by The Government of the people and for the people.

Now that the Government are the new owners of all those businesses the people will be working for a government that loves and cares for them and they will all be paid a living wage!

They will live in Government housing. Housing the people will be paid a living wage to build.

Government Health Care! Government Schools! Government Day Cares!

Government Restaurants? Government Hollywood? Government Disneyland?

Government Cruises? Government Toy Stores? Government Book Stores?

Government Gun Stores?

Here’s the problem with the idea of capitalism use of force...

True, people don’t make things out of thin air. They make things out of physical materials.

Trees are turned into paper for books. Apple Orchards are tended and cared for by human beings increasing their productivity to feed more people.

Human beings use a multitude of materials that they creatively turn into objects human beings can use or enjoy in their everyday lives.

Like the cotton plants multiple uses.

Now, for the part being skipped over by the Socialist idea of force of Capitalism is...

Human Beings Intellectual Property that belongs solely to the individuals that create objects that benefit other people who saw the cotton plant and didn’t come up with the idea that it could be used to make clothes, sheets, cotton balls...etc.

Human beings that create objects from physical materials are selling their Intellectual Property.

The consumers are the ones who decide which created objects are worthwhile and useful to be purchased by them.

imho Roseann

 

[vegas giants]

You actually are also making an outstanding anti tax case for all of us. Thanks.

It does not belong to Government and they never earned our incomes.

Then call a cop. Lol

 

[Good4Nothin]

Again, in order to even make a car you have to lay claim to a bunch of resources. Why are your claims to those resources any more valid than the next guys?

My point isn't to poo-poo capitalism or to cheerlead for socialism. My point is that when you claim socialism confiscates wealth through taxes to do what other people think are better uses for it, the exact same thing can be said about capitalism except in that case the resources are confiscated before production instead of after.

Your thinking is twisted. If I do some work and get paid, I did not confiscate anything in order to get that money.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Nope. Capitalism must be enforced by force. If I work for you for a week and you refuse to pay me then force must be used to settle that debt

Huh? That is meaningless. Everything is ultimately enforced by force. Preventing thieves from breaking into your house at night and killing you is enforced by the police, with guns. This is true anywhere, not just in capitalism.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Well, keep believing that. If you stay warm at night then so what. You forced your employer to pay you.

No, we don't force employers to pay. The government passes and enforces laws that force employers to pay their workers. If your employer refuses to pay you, and you walk in with a gun and demand your pay, YOU will be arrested.

 

[vegas giants]

Huh? That is meaningless. Everything is ultimately enforced by force. Preventing thieves from breaking into your house at night and killing you is enforced by the police, with guns. This is true anywhere, not just in capitalism.

Exactly. My point exactly. No system exists without force

 

[Good4Nothin]

Where do capitalist get the resources to produce the products they sell? If you sell apples, what makes those apples on the tree yours to sell?

If you bought the land and planted the trees and harvested the apples, they are yours to sell. Obviously.

If I write a software program, the resource is my computer. I didn't get the computer by force, I bought it. And the store I bought it from bought it from a supplier, who paid employers to make it. No force is involved anywhere down the line.

 

[vegas giants]

No, we don't force employers to pay. The government passes and enforces laws that force employers to pay their workers. If your employer refuses to pay you, and you walk in with a gun and demand your pay, YOU will be arrested.

You dont need to walk in with a gun. The government will do it for you

 

[vegas giants]

Your thinking is twisted. If I do some work and get paid, I did not confiscate anything in order to get that money.

If you do not get paid you will use the force of government to make sure you do