What's the point of having the richest Football League in the World?

[Infinite Chaos]

After nearly 21 years of Premier League action, is it about time England Football looked at redeveloping the second tier as a development tool for young English talent?

We apparently have the richest Premier League in the world but this has not translated into success for the International Squad which definitely is not the summit here in England.

Apparently only 36% of players in the Premier League are actually English, compared to 46% Italians in the Italian equivalent or 47%, 60% and 61% in the German, French and Spanish leagues respectively.

What other options are there for us to consider?

 

[PeteEU]

There are several reason.

1) It is England.. not the UK. The UK is splitting its football talent on 4 different sub-countries in FIFA/UEFA, and that dilutes the talent pool. Just think if Giggs, Bale, George Best and so on were playing for the UK and not some small non nation like Wales or Northern Ireland..Just think if Spain did the same thing... the Spanish national team would be without Xavi, Iniesta, Alba, Pedro, Xabi Alonso (he is Basque) and so on. You think they could win what they have won .. without those players?

2) Money. The money is a curse. The influx of money, especially the big rich plaything clubs like City and Chealski, have pressed wages up across the board. This means that even the small teams have to pay rather large wages to get players. This also means, it is very important to get success, since success (league placing and so on) will in the end result in what income you can have, and hence what amount of money you can spend on players. The average wage for a Premiership player is 23k A WEEK., that is over a million a year. That means that an average team would have to get 30ish million in income a year to pay the basic wages of players before bonuses and staff wages.. That is insane, especially when you consider the average wage in the second tier of English football is only 4.5k a week. (this btw is not a solely English problem.. far far from it)

3) Lack of investment in youth systems. It use to be that youth systems were the bread and butter of teams. It was here the backbone of the team was founded. Now days, the youth team is more like a burden on clubs than a talent factory. Long gone are the F.C.Barcelona/Ajax type clubs where youth talent is found and eventually get to be stars on the first team. Instead English clubs buy talent, usually from the few talent making clubs out there. That means that the youth in English clubs often are not English but from the continent. Look at Arsenal.. they buy tons of youth players like Fabregas back in the day... but he aint English, he is Spanish. In Spain there are certain talent factories... and there are many of them. Barcelona, Espanyol, Betis, Bilbao and so on.. funny thing the only factory that is dry is Real Madrid.. who started the "buying for success" trend. The few stars they do have are rotting on the B-Team or are out on loan or sold on.... and there are a few who are big talents, but will never ever get a chance in the first team.. well not under Murinho.

4) UEFA rules. The fact that UEFA rules state, that a player of any nationality that plays in a country or in a club for 3 years between 15 and 21 is considered a "home grown" or "in club grown" player .. means that clubs can fill up their youth systems with cheaper talent from abroad and still have them as "English" in their teams when it comes to registration. And this brings back the aspect of money and reliability. Spanish, Argentinian, Brazilian, Dutch and Italian and some what French, have a reputation of having talented young players, so the English teams target those countries massively for scouting and find talent they can exploit. They simply dont want to risk their money on English players when Spanish or Brazilian players have a reputation of being better.

5) Lack of trust in English youth players in the big clubs. England has what... 40+ million people, and a rich history in making good football players. There should be a wealth of talent in the country, especially considering how crazy people are for the game. But when you look at the youth academies, then English players are actually in minority if any at all. That means that any English players are created and molded at the lower levels of English football.. and those lower levels are the 2nd division and lower, since the "infections" of the above are also finding their way into the Championship. This also means that if they are not bought by a team in the top tier the time they are 20 or so, then they will never ever develop their talent fully if at all. You get better by playing among the best, with the best coaches and so on.. not by living in the near amateur ranks of English football with the worst stadiums and training grounds and worst coaches.

6) FA rules. In Spain there is a rule that certain number of players must be trained in club from age 15 to 21, and a certain number of players must be trained in country from age 15 to 21. This is a brilliant rule.. they dont have to be Spanish at all, but in the case of "trained at club", in most cases they are Spanish, which in turn means the "trained in country" aspect also often are Spanish. In the UK, the rule is "trained in country between 15 to 21" which in theory should be better, but in reality it hurts the English game because of nr. 3-5. It also means that in later life, having "enough" home grown players only means you need to buy a certain number of players to meet the rules, and the rest can be non homegrown players and clubs take this to the max... because they dont trust local boys or English players. It puts the burden of talent making of English players on the lower tier, which frankly is not good enough.

And finally...

the clubs themselves. Because the big clubs need success to survive financially, they buy the best players for the most money... and even for secondary positions they buy known and tested players instead of slowly putting through young talented players because it is too big a risk. It is only when the game has no meaning that you see talented players get play time.

Daniel Sturridge is a good example. He has been known to be a big talent in English football for many years. Originally at Aston Villa and later at Coventry and the at Manchester City. He never got a chance at Manchester City, and was sold to Chealski... where he also rarely got a chance.. playing 60 games in 4 years.

Now Liverpool have bought him, he is aged 23... basically almost over the hill talent wise and unable to (in normal football theory.. midfielders and attackers peak at 28ish but stop developing at around 23-4) developing.

And what happened? He was unleashed.. and has been brilliant for Liverpool. Next season will show if the talent is true or if he just got lucky, but the more games at the top level he gets the better he can become.. hopefully.

There is plenty of English talent, but they dont play regularly enough and are often second string to a big non-English star. That is not good enough. Look at Liverpool.. they have quite a few English players. Players like Sterling or Shelvey dont get much play time and with the arrival of Coutinho, a player like Shelvey is pretty much done... or have to wait for Gerrad to retire and hope he can take over... doubt it though.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

There are several reason.

1) It is England.. not the UK. The UK is splitting its football talent on 4 different sub-countries in FIFA/UEFA, and that dilutes the talent pool. Just think if Giggs, Bale, George Best and so on were playing for the UK and not some small non nation like Wales or Northern Ireland..Just think if Spain did the same thing... the Spanish national team would be without Xavi, Iniesta, Alba, Pedro, Xabi Alonso (he is Basque) and so on. You think they could win what they have won .. without those players?

OK, one thing I can accept is that the number of different sports we attempt to do well in dilutes the overall talent pool but if you say our size is not conducive then Holland throws that argument into serious doubt.

2) Money. The money is a curse. The influx of money, especially the big rich plaything clubs like City and Chealski, have pressed wages up across the board. This means that even the small teams have to pay rather large wages to get players. This also means, it is very important to get success, since success (league placing and so on) will in the end result in what income you can have, and hence what amount of money you can spend on players. The average wage for a Premiership player is 23k A WEEK., that is over a million a year. That means that an average team would have to get 30ish million in income a year to pay the basic wages of players before bonuses and staff wages.. That is insane, especially when you consider the average wage in the second tier of English football is only 4.5k a week. (this btw is not a solely English problem.. far far from it)

I agree the money is a problem but I also think it's not going to change - the clubs have a cash cow, owners can generate huge amounts from their supporters. The money and demands require that the PL behave the way it is now - which was why I wondered about the Championship (old 2nd division)
Is it feasible to have a completely separate Premier League which does what it does and operates just for foreign managers and players but have a separate divisional structure where English players would have a chance to develop? I would argue that there should be NO promotion to the Premier League - look at Crystal Palace manager Ian Holloway's words on promotion.

At the moment, promotion isn't working. All the promoted teams can hope for is to become middle of the table teams like Stoke / West Brom / Swansea etc.

3) Lack of investment in youth systems. It use to be that youth systems were the bread and butter of teams. It was here the backbone of the team was founded. Now days, the youth team is more like a burden on clubs than a talent factory. Long gone are the F.C.Barcelona/Ajax type clubs where youth talent is found and eventually get to be stars on the first team. Instead English clubs buy talent, usually from the few talent making clubs out there.

Agreed.

4) UEFA rules. The fact that UEFA rules state, that a player of any nationality that plays in a country or in a club for 3 years between 15 and 21 is considered a "home grown" or "in club grown" player .. means that clubs can fill up their youth systems with cheaper talent from abroad and still have them as "English" in their teams when it comes to registration. And this brings back the aspect of money and reliability. Spanish, Argentinian, Brazilian, Dutch and Italian and some what French, have a reputation of having talented young players, so the English teams target those countries massively for scouting and find talent they can exploit. They simply dont want to risk their money on English players when Spanish or Brazilian players have a reputation of being better.

How to change this without breaking employment laws?

5) Lack of trust in English youth players in the big clubs. England has what... 40+ million people, and a rich history in making good football players. There should be a wealth of talent in the country, especially considering how crazy people are for the game. But when you look at the youth academies, then English players are actually in minority if any at all. That means that any English players are created and molded at the lower levels of English football.. and those lower levels are the 2nd division and lower, since the "infections" of the above are also finding their way into the Championship. This also means that if they are not bought by a team in the top tier the time they are 20 or so, then they will never ever develop their talent fully if at all. You get better by playing among the best, with the best coaches and so on.. not by living in the near amateur ranks of English football with the worst stadiums and training grounds and worst coaches.

6) FA rules. In Spain there is a rule that certain number of players must be trained in club from age 15 to 21, and a certain number of players must be trained in country from age 15 to 21. This is a brilliant rule.. they dont have to be Spanish at all, but in the case of "trained at club", in most cases they are Spanish, which in turn means the "trained in country" aspect also often are Spanish. In the UK, the rule is "trained in country between 15 to 21" which in theory should be better, but in reality it hurts the English game because of nr. 3-5. It also means that in later life, having "enough" home grown players only means you need to buy a certain number of players to meet the rules, and the rest can be non homegrown players and clubs take this to the max... because they dont trust local boys or English players. It puts the burden of talent making of English players on the lower tier, which frankly is not good enough.

And finally...

the clubs themselves. Because the big clubs need success to survive financially, they buy the best players for the most money... and even for secondary positions they buy known and tested players instead of slowly putting through young talented players because it is too big a risk. It is only when the game has no meaning that you see talented players get play time.

Daniel Sturridge is a good example. He has been known to be a big talent in English football for many years. Originally at Aston Villa and later at Coventry and the at Manchester City. He never got a chance at Manchester City, and was sold to Chealski... where he also rarely got a chance.. playing 60 games in 4 years.

Now Liverpool have bought him, he is aged 23... basically almost over the hill talent wise and unable to (in normal football theory.. midfielders and attackers peak at 28ish but stop developing at around 23-4) developing.

And what happened? He was unleashed.. and has been brilliant for Liverpool. Next season will show if the talent is true or if he just got lucky, but the more games at the top level he gets the better he can become.. hopefully.

There is plenty of English talent, but they dont play regularly enough and are often second string to a big non-English star. That is not good enough. Look at Liverpool.. they have quite a few English players. Players like Sterling or Shelvey dont get much play time and with the arrival of Coutinho, a player like Shelvey is pretty much done... or have to wait for Gerrad to retire and hope he can take over... doubt it though.

Agreed.

 

[PeteEU]

OK, one thing I can accept is that the number of different sports we attempt to do well in dilutes the overall talent pool but if you say our size is not conducive then Holland throws that argument into serious doubt.

It is not about size of the country. Denmark has done better in international competitions than England the last 30 years so.. it is not about size. It is about putting in artificial barriers that prevents exploiting all the talent in a country. Like it or not you are the United Kingdom, not England, not Wales, not Scotland. Because of this silly nationalism in English football, the UK has diluted its talent pool to be able to compete seriously in international competitions. No Giggs, no Bale and so on has really hurt UK football... they were/are the best in their position in the UK if not the world... and yet were forced to play in national teams that could never ever hope for anything. It would be like saying that players from Zealand in Denmark were not allowed on the Danish national team... that would mean no Laudrups... and well, how far would Denmark have gotten without them or Peter Schmiechael? Why deny yourself the best talent in your country because some people still live with the idiotic ideal of being a "nation", when in fact you are a province in the United Kingdom... just baffles me.

Oh and btw, Denmark are having the exact same problems as England... we have tons of non Danish players in our top clubs, and our talented players are shipped overseas to train... to Holland among other things. Look at the Ajax team at the moment..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax#Current_squad

6 Danes and the second biggest nationality after the Dutch players. And all but two of those Danish players are under 21.

Also Holland has long punched above its weight in football, but that is due to its clubs actually doing something about home grown players and investing money there. Teams like Ajax and PSV are teams that Barcelona have copied to create a talent factory in house.

I agree the money is a problem but I also think it's not going to change - the clubs have a cash cow, owners can generate huge amounts from their supporters. The money and demands require that the PL behave the way it is now - which was why I wondered about the Championship (old 2nd division)
Is it feasible to have a completely separate Premier League which does what it does and operates just for foreign managers and players but have a separate divisional structure where English players would have a chance to develop? I would argue that there should be NO promotion to the Premier League - look at Crystal Palace manager Ian Holloway's words on promotion.

I dont think it would solve the over all problem, but it is an interesting idea. You would have to leave the EU first though, since you can not deny Championship clubs in signing foreign talent over English and well then you are back to square one.

At the moment, promotion isn't working. All the promoted teams can hope for is to become middle of the table teams like Stoke / West Brom / Swansea etc.

To be fair that is how it always has been. Promoted teams have always had one goal.. to stay in the new division next season and then hope that overtime they get financially sound enough to attract better players and push for Europe and so on.

The problem in the English game and in the Spanish game is that they are dominated by 4-6 top teams in the UK and 2 in Spain, with the rest fighting it out for scraps and not going down.

Look at the UK,.. the CL places are all but named at the start of the season, with only the Europa league places being in some what doubt because 2 of the places being given to the cup winners. Else we already know what the teams at the top will look like next year... Man City, Man United, Chealski will fight it out for the title, with Arsenal and Tottenham fighting for the 4th place and Everton/Liverpool fighting for the final Europa Leauge spot. Sure money can change that, but I do not see any other teams threatening the top 3-5... maybe Newcastle if they can get their act together.. but the rest? no hope what so ever... even Everton without Moyes might be in serious trouble, so the top 6 might already be set for next season. And the ONLY reason that there are up to 6 teams now, is because of 2 teams being massively funded by non-Brits. Had it not been for that money, then the list would only have been Man U and Arsenal and Liverpool with possibly Tottenham knocking on the door. Why? Because Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are international names, with huge fanbases and hence can generate money that other teams cant. Man City and Chelsea would have been mid table clubs like Stoke and Swansea and it is only their big named signings and such that created a small but growing fanbase out side the UK. In the end... it is money that has grown the "exclusive" club.

Even in Germany, we already know that Bayern will be the team to beat and unless there is serious internal problems (not unheard off at that club), chances are Bayern will be champions next season, with Dortmund and a few others fighting for 2nd and 3rd.

In France it is actually some what different, since PSG will be loosing their manager, and an upstart from the second division in Monaco will most likely be outspending them. But will Marseilles, Lyon or Lille or Bordeaux be able to match those 2 teams... doubtful.

In Spain it is no different... Real and Barca at the top, with Athletico Madrid and Valencia dishing it out for 3rd and 4th, with teams like Bilbao, Malaga, Real Sociadad, Sevilia maybe being able to put a bit of pressure. No one coming up will stand a chance and will be fighting to stay in La Liga. And even Bilbao, Malaga, Real Sociadad might be in trouble because of loosing talent to pay the bills.

How to change this without breaking employment laws?

Good question... leave the EU is one option and put in draconian rules that state English before anything else including Welsh and Scottish. That is of course not realistic.

What is needed is an attitude change in the clubs themselves. They have long lived on the Chealski/Real Madrid attitude of buying a team, and they have to do like Barca and build a team from with in and supplement it with a few big names. It is the only real long term solution and Manchester City's leadership have realized this. They could keep spending like no tomorrow and press wages up and up, but in the long term it would be hella expensive. Then rather get young players, and form a spine of a team from them and go from there. That is why Mancini was fired ... he did not play the youth.

Attitudes are changing. A team like Liverpool plays a lot of talent relative to the big clubs... it hurts them in the short run. The trick is to balance the buying with giving chances to internal talent. Man U use to do that brilliantly but has over the years joined the "lets buy our success " crowd. Chealski tried to create a talent system, but the owner did not go all the way and keeps buying success. Very few youth players have gotten the chance in the first team... considering the amount of money spent on the youth system there. I can only think of one that is some what regular.. Bertrand.

And here comes the problem... football for the big clubs is about short term success these days, and not long term planning and goals. Look at Arsenal, year after year, Arsne has refused to buy big stars, and bought talent and has given young players (non English often) play time... his team has suffered. They have not won anything in donkeys years and the demands from fans to buy success has built up. Basically teams that want success have to buy the "best" players and continue to buy them to maintain their status since dropping out of the top 4 can be catastrophic financially for some teams in the medium if not short term.

Look at the number of English players in the first team at top English clubs vs Spanish players at Spanish top clubs and Dutch players at top Dutch clubs.

Man U = 11 out of 25
Man City = 8 out of 25
Chelsea = 6 out of 25
Arsenal = 5 out of 25
Liverpool = 17 out of 36 (not in the CL so no reason to register only 25) and out of these at least 12 have played in the first team this season from what I can see.

Real Madrid = 11 out of 25 and of these only 4 can be considered as remotely regular players in the first team.
Barcelona = 15 out of 25, with 17 out of 25 coming from the youth system (Messi and dos Santos are not Spanish players).

Ajax = 18 out of 30, with 6 danes!..
PSV = 13 out of 22.

Personally I find the Ajax/PSV/Barcelona/Liverpool way of going the best... more national players the better.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

It is not about size of the country. Denmark has done better in international competitions than England the last 30 years so.. it is not about size. It is about putting in artificial barriers that prevents exploiting all the talent in a country. Like it or not you are the United Kingdom, not England, not Wales, not Scotland. Because of this silly nationalism in English football, the UK has diluted its talent pool to be able to compete seriously in international competitions. No Giggs, no Bale and so on has really hurt UK football... they were/are the best in their position in the UK if not the world... and yet were forced to play in national teams that could never ever hope for anything. It would be like saying that players from Zealand in Denmark were not allowed on the Danish national team... that would mean no Laudrups... and well, how far would Denmark have gotten without them or Peter Schmiechael? Why deny yourself the best talent in your country because some people still live with the idiotic ideal of being a "nation", when in fact you are a province in the United Kingdom... just baffles me.

There would be civil war if we tried to create a United Kingdom football squad.

Oh and btw, Denmark are having the exact same problems as England... we have tons of non Danish players in our top clubs, and our talented players are shipped overseas to train... to Holland among other things. Look at the Ajax team at the moment..

My sympathies but we don't have many talented UK players being shipped overseas to train. Apart from Bale, Rooney and Ashley Cole we don't have many world class players.

-- I dont think it would solve the over all problem, but it is an interesting idea. You would have to leave the EU first though, since you can not deny Championship clubs in signing foreign talent over English and well then you are back to square one.

No, this isn't about the EU - what I mean is keep the Premier League but as the lower Divisions aren't that attractive to foreign owners or foreign football players it could just fill up with English players who actually get to play competitively, week in, week out. No restrictions on foreign players - just that foreign players would be attracted to the Premier League.

-- To be fair that is how it always has been. Promoted teams have always had one goal.. to stay in the new division next season and then hope that overtime they get financially sound enough to attract better players and push for Europe and so on.

I get that, but we could offer an option NOT to progress to the Premier League. I know this would mean these teams never get the chance to go on and compete in Europe though - but so far that has not helped many teams who won promotion anyway. Each one that qualified became overstretched and either relegated or sank back to the bottom half of the Premier League.

--The problem in the English game and in the Spanish game is that they are dominated by 4-6 top teams in the UK and 2 in Spain, with the rest fighting it out for scraps and not going down.

But the ratio of Spanish players in the Spanish top division is way higher - almost double that in the UK.

-- What is needed is an attitude change in the clubs themselves. They have long lived on the Chealski/Real Madrid attitude of buying a team, and they have to do like Barca and build a team from with in and supplement it with a few big names. It is the only real long term solution and Manchester City's leadership have realized this. They could keep spending like no tomorrow and press wages up and up, but in the long term it would be hella expensive. Then rather get young players, and form a spine of a team from them and go from there. That is why Mancini was fired ... he did not play the youth.

Attitudes are changing. A team like Liverpool plays a lot of talent relative to the big clubs... it hurts them in the short run. The trick is to balance the buying with giving chances to internal talent. Man U use to do that brilliantly but has over the years joined the "lets buy our success " crowd. Chealski tried to create a talent system, but the owner did not go all the way and keeps buying success. Very few youth players have gotten the chance in the first team... considering the amount of money spent on the youth system there. I can only think of one that is some what regular.. Bertrand.

And here comes the problem... football for the big clubs is about short term success these days, and not long term planning and goals. Look at Arsenal, year after year, Arsne has refused to buy big stars, and bought talent and has given young players (non English often) play time... his team has suffered. They have not won anything in donkeys years and the demands from fans to buy success has built up. Basically teams that want success have to buy the "best" players and continue to buy them to maintain their status since dropping out of the top 4 can be catastrophic financially for some teams in the medium if not short term.

Look at the number of English players in the first team at top English clubs vs Spanish players at Spanish top clubs and Dutch players at top Dutch clubs.

Man U = 11 out of 25
Man City = 8 out of 25
Chelsea = 6 out of 25
Arsenal = 5 out of 25
Liverpool = 17 out of 36 (not in the CL so no reason to register only 25) and out of these at least 12 have played in the first team this season from what I can see.

Real Madrid = 11 out of 25 and of these only 4 can be considered as remotely regular players in the first team.
Barcelona = 15 out of 25, with 17 out of 25 coming from the youth system (Messi and dos Santos are not Spanish players).

Ajax = 18 out of 30, with 6 danes!..
PSV = 13 out of 22.

Personally I find the Ajax/PSV/Barcelona/Liverpool way of going the best... more national players the better.

The trouble is, for England football - the situation isn't working. If your priorities are Man Utd / Man City / Liverpool / Arsenal etc then fine, focus on team success but we are doing really badly at International level. Brazil is about 1 year away and we can guarantee that success will be very hard to come by.

I just don't see anything improving the situation.

 

[PeteEU]

There would be civil war if we tried to create a United Kingdom football squad.

I know but the point stands.

My sympathies but we don't have many talented UK players being shipped overseas to train. Apart from Bale, Rooney and Ashley Cole we don't have many world class players.

I disagree fully. You have plenty of talented players, but the young ones dont get their chance. Add to that, international managers who dont really promote youth, and you got a problem. Remember the England team U21 has gotten quite far in their relative tournaments and are on of the best U21 teams in Europe.

No, this isn't about the EU - what I mean is keep the Premier League but as the lower Divisions aren't that attractive to foreign owners or foreign football players it could just fill up with English players who actually get to play competitively, week in, week out. No restrictions on foreign players - just that foreign players would be attracted to the Premier League.

Then you would have to limit the money available in the divisions... dont see that happening. But I understand what you are saying.

One solution could be a European wide league with the biggest teams from each country in that league.. but then you have to choose those teams and how many from each country and ... I am not even gonna attempt that lol, cause you try explaining why England needs 6 places but Spain only gets 2 and France 1 or 2 and Germany 3... and what about the Dutch or Italians..

I get that, but we could offer an option NOT to progress to the Premier League. I know this would mean these teams never get the chance to go on and compete in Europe though - but so far that has not helped many teams who won promotion anyway. Each one that qualified became overstretched and either relegated or sank back to the bottom half of the Premier League.

So you are seriously saying that any team would say no to 60 million pounds and not go up into the Premier League? And we are back to the money issue from TV revenue.

But the ratio of Spanish players in the Spanish top division is way higher - almost double that in the UK.

Yes and that is where your point about the "special" Championship comes in. The Spanish clubs use local Spanish players because..... drumroll... they are cheap relative to getting expensive overseas players. And when you actually have a football culture and talent factory, then it actually is a good thing. But in this case it is out of need, not exactly desire. The non-Barca/Real teams simply dont have the money via TV revenue to pay for players.

The trouble is, for England football - the situation isn't working. If your priorities are Man Utd / Man City / Liverpool / Arsenal etc then fine, focus on team success but we are doing really badly at International level. Brazil is about 1 year away and we can guarantee that success will be very hard to come by.

I just don't see anything improving the situation.

Not in the short run no, and I agree it is far from a good situation.

Let me give you a rather sad example from Chelsea. '

Josh McEachran, seen as a future England midfielder and a new "Gerrad". But the problem has been, he is in a team with Frank Lampard, Essien, Hazzard and so on and so on.. so he got zero chances at Chelsea. They have now loaned him out and he has gotten 38 games this season, versus a total of 15 from 2007 to 2011-12 season. From what I understand, he played very well at Middlesbrough but I dont fancy his chances in the Chelsea team at all. And if he does not get chances at the top tier or gets loaned out to at least the Championship... then he is just another massive talent wasted. The only thing going for him, is he is only 20 years old, but he needs games... many games, to get the experience before he can realize his talent.

 

[PeteEU]

Oh and dont forget... England is in a generational change period. Your stars are in the their early to mid and even late 30s... and consecutive England managers have not brought in new blood as fast as they should.

 

[Peter Grimm]

After nearly 21 years of Premier League action, is it about time England Football looked at redeveloping the second tier as a development tool for young English talent?

We apparently have the richest Premier League in the world but this has not translated into success for the International Squad which definitely is not the summit here in England.

Apparently only 36% of players in the Premier League are actually English, compared to 46% Italians in the Italian equivalent or 47%, 60% and 61% in the German, French and Spanish leagues respectively.

What other options are there for us to consider?

Learn American Football. It's a superior sport in every regard. Soccer is insanely boring. There is literally no action, hardly anyone ever scores. There is no physicality to it. Just a bunch of men prancing around kicking a ball to each other. This is why in my country, soccer is considered a female sport.

Your "rugby" is a much better sport than soccer. I could get in to rugby. It's like a less-evolved version of American football.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- I disagree fully. You have plenty of talented players, but the young ones dont get their chance. Add to that, international managers who dont really promote youth, and you got a problem. Remember the England team U21 has gotten quite far in their relative tournaments and are on of the best U21 teams in Europe.

This thread was inspired by listening to a discussion on Radio 5 live, the consensus agreed with you regarding young players at teams like Chelsea not getting exposure. Some ex players like Alan Shearer, Glenn Hoddle etc also spoke about how big Premier League teams didn't want to risk success (because of short termism by their managers and owners who demanded instant success) by trying young players over experienced foreign players. Ruud Gullit came on the programme and said our players are great individuals but don't play as a team - haven't done for years.

They also however spoke about lack of technical ability. I know Hoddle went loopy-doo with his politics / religious beliefs but I agreed his view on poor technical ability, the lack of basic ability to hold on to a ball, pass accurately and play with awareness of where team-mates were.

It's not a great picture.

That's one thing - then there was sticking with 4-4-2 after Alf Ramsey. He brought that in for 1966 having ditched 4-3-3 and it was revolutionary then. It's predictable now. When other international teams play us they know we'll pretty much work to 4-4-2 mentality or even worse - the long ball when we're in trouble. That's despite having over 20 years of some of the best foreign players over here mixing with our managers / teams / coaches.

 

[PeteEU]

This thread was inspired by listening to a discussion on Radio 5 live, the consensus agreed with you regarding young players at teams like Chelsea not getting exposure. Some ex players like Alan Shearer, Glenn Hoddle etc also spoke about how big Premier League teams didn't want to risk success (because of short termism by their managers and owners who demanded instant success) by trying young players over experienced foreign players.

That is exactly what I mean. I would also add, that they would rather buy young foreign players that have shown something in their teams abroad, than give their own young players a shot. A good example is Chealski who bought Ramieres instead of using one of their own homegrown talent. Hell even Neymar to Barcelona is a bit like that, although there is a massive commercial aspect in that too.

Ruud Gullit came on the programme and said our players are great individuals but don't play as a team - haven't done for years.

I agree fully with him. Look at the Gerrad and Lampard issue. Individually they are brilliant players but playing together... that is something they simply cant do. And when they finally find a combo of players that do play well together, then they rarely play them. Heskey and Rooney were a brilliant pairing, but Heskey rarely got picked.

They also however spoke about lack of technical ability. I know Hoddle went loopy-doo with his politics / religious beliefs but I agreed his view on poor technical ability, the lack of basic ability to hold on to a ball, pass accurately and play with awareness of where team-mates were.

That comes down to training and playing games. And since many English players get trained in the lower divisons by so so coaches (since they are loaned out in their youth) and get few games that actually matter, then they never ever learn this. There is a reason that Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets play like they know where each other are... they have played together for 5+ years including in the youth team.

That's one thing - then there was sticking with 4-4-2 after Alf Ramsey. He brought that in for 1966 having ditched 4-3-3 and it was revolutionary then. It's predictable now. When other international teams play us they know we'll pretty much work to 4-4-2 mentality or even worse - the long ball when we're in trouble. That's despite having over 20 years of some of the best foreign players over here mixing with our managers / teams / coaches.

TBH that has more to do with the availability of players than anything else. For many years you simply did not have the attacking material needed or so it seems.

 

[austrianecon]

There are several reason.

I have a problem with a few of these and offer counter arguments.

1) It is England.. not the UK. The UK is splitting its football talent on 4 different sub-countries in FIFA/UEFA, and that dilutes the talent pool. Just think if Giggs, Bale, George Best and so on were playing for the UK and not some small non nation like Wales or Northern Ireland..Just think if Spain did the same thing... the Spanish national team would be without Xavi, Iniesta, Alba, Pedro, Xabi Alonso (he is Basque) and so on. You think they could win what they have won .. without those players?

England is a country, so is Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. They have a legal right to their own teams and it allows them to keep their own national pride which all these countries have. England doesn't have a small talent pool. England is a population of 53 million, that's 84% of the UK population. No player from Scotland or Northern Ireland is gonna make a "UK team". So you just cut the pool by another 11.3%. If 4.8% of the UK's population (Wales) is the difference between winning Euros or World Cup that's not a splitting of talent problem but a problem directly in England.

It's really too bad Catalonia and Basque don't have their own teams. Catalonia would be a defacto power house over night as you are talking half of the Spanish national team. :lol:

2) Money. The money is a curse. The influx of money, especially the big rich plaything clubs like City and Chealski, have pressed wages up across the board. This means that even the small teams have to pay rather large wages to get players. This also means, it is very important to get success, since success (league placing and so on) will in the end result in what income you can have, and hence what amount of money you can spend on players. The average wage for a Premiership player is 23k A WEEK., that is over a million a year. That means that an average team would have to get 30ish million in income a year to pay the basic wages of players before bonuses and staff wages.. That is insane, especially when you consider the average wage in the second tier of English football is only 4.5k a week. (this btw is not a solely English problem.. far far from it)

But 30 million a year isn't a big deal. EPL TV money pays for that alone. Wolves (in 2012) brought in 39 million in tv money and they finished dead last. Second tier football isn't broadcasted all over the world either.

MLS has a salary cap of $2.95 million per team (minus Designated Players of which only $350,000 of their wages are counted towards the cap). It's really complicated and annoying (ownership rights lies with MLS at the end of the day). But the designated player rule was created for Beckham so he could come to LA Galaxy and get paid. Last Year (2012) LA Galaxy and NY Red Bulls total wage bill for players was in the $12-14 million range. TV money for the whole MLS was $12.5 million.. so teams are getting less then $700,000 per team. So that means they made a killing in ticket sales right and sponsorships? Not really. Avg shirt deal is $3.5 million. Avg crowd is 19,000. Even with the Salary Cap 2/3rds of all teams are unprofitable.

3) Lack of investment in youth systems. It use to be that youth systems were the bread and butter of teams. It was here the backbone of the team was founded. Now days, the youth team is more like a burden on clubs than a talent factory. Long gone are the F.C.Barcelona/Ajax type clubs where youth talent is found and eventually get to be stars on the first team. Instead English clubs buy talent, usually from the few talent making clubs out there. That means that the youth in English clubs often are not English but from the continent. Look at Arsenal.. they buy tons of youth players like Fabregas back in the day... but he aint English, he is Spanish. In Spain there are certain talent factories... and there are many of them. Barcelona, Espanyol, Betis, Bilbao and so on.. funny thing the only factory that is dry is Real Madrid.. who started the "buying for success" trend. The few stars they do have are rotting on the B-Team or are out on loan or sold on.... and there are a few who are big talents, but will never ever get a chance in the first team.. well not under Murinho.

This is a problem and I agree.. French, German and Spanish leagues do more of this. But at the end of the day these talents leave to other leagues. French players go to EPL or La Liga. Germans tend to stick in Germany but some do end up in EPL.

But Real Madrid does have some talent. Morata and Nacho will make first team at some point. Morata looks like player for the National team in the future. What happens to Enzo (Zidane's son) is up in the air.

4) UEFA rules. The fact that UEFA rules state, that a player of any nationality that plays in a country or in a club for 3 years between 15 and 21 is considered a "home grown" or "in club grown" player .. means that clubs can fill up their youth systems with cheaper talent from abroad and still have them as "English" in their teams when it comes to registration. And this brings back the aspect of money and reliability. Spanish, Argentinian, Brazilian, Dutch and Italian and some what French, have a reputation of having talented young players, so the English teams target those countries massively for scouting and find talent they can exploit. They simply dont want to risk their money on English players when Spanish or Brazilian players have a reputation of being better.

So? MLS is nearly 100% home grown and look at that league. :lol:

5) Lack of trust in English youth players in the big clubs. England has what... 40+ million people, and a rich history in making good football players. There should be a wealth of talent in the country, especially considering how crazy people are for the game. But when you look at the youth academies, then English players are actually in minority if any at all. That means that any English players are created and molded at the lower levels of English football.. and those lower levels are the 2nd division and lower, since the "infections" of the above are also finding their way into the Championship. This also means that if they are not bought by a team in the top tier the time they are 20 or so, then they will never ever develop their talent fully if at all. You get better by playing among the best, with the best coaches and so on.. not by living in the near amateur ranks of English football with the worst stadiums and training grounds and worst coaches.

While this is a problem.. Talent is natural, it's the honing part. Gary Hooper trained with Spurs for 7 years before being released. Gary always had the talent. He played for Grays Athletic and caught attention of Southend, then S****horpe (how is this a curse word) and then Celitc. Celtic went dumpster diving and got Gary Hooper for a steal from a League two team for less then 2.4 million. Hooper should have been playing against Ireland today. Which makes this more of a FA problem.

the clubs themselves. Because the big clubs need success to survive financially, they buy the best players for the most money... and even for secondary positions they buy known and tested players instead of slowly putting through young talented players because it is too big a risk. It is only when the game has no meaning that you see talented players get play time.

Daniel Sturridge is a good example. He has been known to be a big talent in English football for many years. Originally at Aston Villa and later at Coventry and the at Manchester City. He never got a chance at Manchester City, and was sold to Chealski... where he also rarely got a chance.. playing 60 games in 4 years.

Now Liverpool have bought him, he is aged 23... basically almost over the hill talent wise and unable to (in normal football theory.. midfielders and attackers peak at 28ish but stop developing at around 23-4) developing.

And what happened? He was unleashed.. and has been brilliant for Liverpool. Next season will show if the talent is true or if he just got lucky, but the more games at the top level he gets the better he can become.. hopefully.

Daniel Sturridge played a full season at Chelsea in 2011/2012 (30 games), 2010/2011 he played 26 games that season (13 at Chelsea and 13 at Bolton). So to say he wasn't given a chance is not true. Villas-Boas played him, Villa-Boas was fired, Di Mateo didn't like to play him (manager choice).

Remember there are 16 other teams players can be loaned to in EPL, then another 70 some in professional teams in England. Then overseas loans work too. There are always options for a player to get playing time. I am always struck by a situation Jozy Altidore went through, he went to Villarreal.. and sat the loaned out.. then went to Hull on a loan (not a place he should have gone too), and played in Turkey for a bit. It took Jozy Altidore 3 years to find regular play at AZ.

 

[Grand Mal]

After nearly 21 years of Premier League action, is it about time England Football looked at redeveloping the second tier as a development tool for young English talent?

We apparently have the richest Premier League in the world but this has not translated into success for the International Squad which definitely is not the summit here in England.

Apparently only 36% of players in the Premier League are actually English, compared to 46% Italians in the Italian equivalent or 47%, 60% and 61% in the German, French and Spanish leagues respectively.

What other options are there for us to consider?

Salary cap in the EPL. Make it less attractive for players from elsewhere, leaving more spots for local players.
(grin!)

 

[PeteEU]

Salary cap in the EPL. Make it less attractive for players from elsewhere, leaving more spots for local players.
(grin!)

I suspect that any salary cap will be thrown out by the courts.

 

[PeteEU]

England is a country, so is Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. They have a legal right to their own teams and it allows them to keep their own national pride which all these countries have. England doesn't have a small talent pool. England is a population of 53 million, that's 84% of the UK population. No player from Scotland or Northern Ireland is gonna make a "UK team". So you just cut the pool by another 11.3%. If 4.8% of the UK's population (Wales) is the difference between winning Euros or World Cup that's not a splitting of talent problem but a problem directly in England.

Does Scotland, Nothern Ireland and Wales have control over their affairs like borders, foreign policy, finances and so on? No... hence they are not a country but a province of a country.

It's really too bad Catalonia and Basque don't have their own teams. Catalonia would be a defacto power house over night as you are talking half of the Spanish national team. :lol:

Catalonia would have an okay team, but not one that could challenge the big nations. Certain key positions would be weak relative to other big teams. There is actually a Catalonian national team, and they play a couple times a year, and yes the big stars often play for them... but they also loose a lot

But 30 million a year isn't a big deal. EPL TV money pays for that alone. Wolves (in 2012) brought in 39 million in tv money and they finished dead last. Second tier football isn't broadcasted all over the world either.

30 million on average for the lowest paid teams for ONLY the first team players in basic wages before bonuses? That is a lot for any company. Add to that the 2nd team, youth, coaches and staff, plus stadium and so on and it does become problematic. Oh and the Championship does get broadcasted over the word, just not all of it.

MLS has a salary cap of $2.95 million per team (minus Designated Players of which only $350,000 of their wages are counted towards the cap). It's really complicated and annoying (ownership rights lies with MLS at the end of the day). But the designated player rule was created for Beckham so he could come to LA Galaxy and get paid. Last Year (2012) LA Galaxy and NY Red Bulls total wage bill for players was in the $12-14 million range. TV money for the whole MLS was $12.5 million.. so teams are getting less then $700,000 per team. So that means they made a killing in ticket sales right and sponsorships? Not really. Avg shirt deal is $3.5 million. Avg crowd is 19,000. Even with the Salary Cap 2/3rds of all teams are unprofitable.

Yes, communist leagues like the MLS, NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB... they have such anti business deals. They are also protected industries with rules that would never ever fly in the UK or in the EU. Oh and they are tax free...and hence heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.

This is a problem and I agree.. French, German and Spanish leagues do more of this. But at the end of the day these talents leave to other leagues. French players go to EPL or La Liga. Germans tend to stick in Germany but some do end up in EPL.

Because of money and rules. Fabregas went to Arsenal because in the UK you are allowed to sign under 16 year olds to professional contracts... you are not in in Spain. I personally wish the EU would allow one simple rule... no professional contracts for anyone under age 18.... it works wonders for countries like Brazil and Mexico, where youth cant sign pro contracts before they are 18.

But Real Madrid does have some talent. Morata and Nacho will make first team at some point. Morata looks like player for the National team in the future. What happens to Enzo (Zidane's son) is up in the air.

Never said they did not have talent.. I said they were not being played. The Real Madrid second team is loosing 80% of its first team players this summer for example, because their contracts are up and they want regular first team football. Maybe under new management the big talent will get a chance, but I aint holding my breath since it is not the style of Real Madrid under the present president.

So? MLS is nearly 100% home grown and look at that league. :lol:

I dont look at that league It is the league where the has beens from European and South American football go to "die" and extend their career. Other than New York Red Bulls and LA Galaxy I dont know any other teams.... Seattle Saunders or something like that? Think Drew Carey is a massive fan of them.

While this is a problem.. Talent is natural, it's the honing part. Gary Hooper trained with Spurs for 7 years before being released. Gary always had the talent. He played for Grays Athletic and caught attention of Southend, then S****horpe (how is this a curse word) and then Celitc. Celtic went dumpster diving and got Gary Hooper for a steal from a League two team for less then 2.4 million. Hooper should have been playing against Ireland today. Which makes this more of a FA problem.

Just because you play well in Scotland does not mean you will do so in the Premiership or elsewhere. Scotland's league is a small league to say the least and not one where the big stars go (with a few exceptions). Most big named players in Scotland cant hack it outside Scotland.

Daniel Sturridge played a full season at Chelsea in 2011/2012 (30 games), 2010/2011 he played 26 games that season (13 at Chelsea and 13 at Bolton). So to say he wasn't given a chance is not true. Villas-Boas played him, Villa-Boas was fired, Di Mateo didn't like to play him (manager choice).

90% of that was coming of the bench in the last 10 minutes and the rest was in a cup competition. He was rarely given a starting chance... mostly because the positions he plays had very expensive superstars that had to be played according to the owner, regardless of their form.

Remember there are 16 other teams players can be loaned to in EPL, then another 70 some in professional teams in England. Then overseas loans work too. There are always options for a player to get playing time. I am always struck by a situation Jozy Altidore went through, he went to Villarreal.. and sat the loaned out.. then went to Hull on a loan (not a place he should have gone too), and played in Turkey for a bit. It took Jozy Altidore 3 years to find regular play at AZ.

Because he was not good enough... he was an overhyped American player driven forward by the footballing elite in the vain hope of finding a "super talent" from America. Look at Freddy Adu... he was all over the US media and world football media as the next Maradonna... where is he now? Playing for Bahia in Brazil after failed attempts in Europe and the US... he is only 23 (or supposedly only 23).

As for loaning players out.. yes, and a lot of teams do that. But the problem is that the top teams would rather not loan them to someone in the same division and that leaves the lower divisions and overseas and here the quality of the coaching comes into question... so they decide that the best way to improve is to stay at home.

Personally in the UK, I would say that the reserve teams should play in the leagues like in Spain... it really helps in development. The Barca B team regularly challenges for promotion to La Liga and that drives the talent factory. If I remember right, Barca B came in 2nd 2 years ago in the 2nd division.. of course they could not get promoted, but that showed clearly how good the team and the talent is going. Could you imagine Man U reserves team playing in the Championship or League one and the amount of competitive time the reserves would get?

 

[austrianecon]

Does Scotland, Nothern Ireland and Wales have control over their affairs like borders, foreign policy, finances and so on? No... hence they are not a country but a province of a country.

Does anybody in the EU have that control either? No.. every country in the EU has these policies controlled by Frankfurt, Strasbourg, Brussels, Lexumbourg. So try another argument.

Catalonia would have an okay team, but not one that could challenge the big nations. Certain key positions would be weak relative to other big teams. There is actually a Catalonian national team, and they play a couple times a year, and yes the big stars often play for them... but they also loose a lot

Really? they've lost only 1 game since 2005. The game they lost was to Argentina which they beat in 2008. Catalonia National Team

Now show me weakness for that team.

30 million on average for the lowest paid teams for ONLY the first team players in basic wages before bonuses? That is a lot for any company. Add to that the 2nd team, youth, coaches and staff, plus stadium and so on and it does become problematic. Oh and the Championship does get broadcasted over the word, just not all of it.

And every team gets a flat TV payout each year as well which is 39 million or more. Then for being in the EPL you get better sponsor deals, better sales, and ticket prices. Last place teams still have 50 million in turnover. It's debt that's the problem for most of these teams because their wage bills are below their turnover.

FL Championship is only in 20 or 30 countries.. EPL is in 200 countries...

Yes, communist leagues like the MLS, NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB... they have such anti business deals. They are also protected industries with rules that would never ever fly in the UK or in the EU. Oh and they are tax free...and hence heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.

LOL.. NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB aren't "protected" persay. There are different leagues that are around for those sports. Same with MLS. MLS has $100m fee to start a team in the league so there is no promotion or regulation league. But there is the NASL, U-Pro and others. They have the ability to compete in the US Open Cup (US FA Cup). The League,themselves, are tax exempt but the teams are not. Most sports teams in the US don't own their Stadiums either since they are usually built by public funds. So they pay rent and admission taxes. Then sales taxes.

Because of money and rules. Fabregas went to Arsenal because in the UK you are allowed to sign under 16 year olds to professional contracts... you are not in in Spain. I personally wish the EU would allow one simple rule... no professional contracts for anyone under age 18.... it works wonders for countries like Brazil and Mexico, where youth cant sign pro contracts before they are 18.

That's funny. Man U signed Fabio and Rafael when they were 17. They couldn't play until they were 18 under FIFA rules. So that rule is set. Fabregas's move was leaving Barca Academy on a youth contract. Messi left Argentina at 13 on a youth contract. You don't think Newell's Old Boys got screwed?

Never said they did not have talent.. I said they were not being played. The Real Madrid second team is loosing 80% of its first team players this summer for example, because their contracts are up and they want regular first team football. Maybe under new management the big talent will get a chance, but I aint holding my breath since it is not the style of Real Madrid under the present president.

So what? players leave clubs all the time.

I dont look at that league It is the league where the has beens from European and South American football go to "die" and extend their career. Other than New York Red Bulls and LA Galaxy I dont know any other teams.... Seattle Saunders or something like that? Think Drew Carey is a massive fan of them.

Sounders, and Drew Carey is one of the founders of the club. But MLS has everything you want. Wage controls, contract protections and so on. What you want gets you the MLS.

Just because you play well in Scotland does not mean you will do so in the Premiership or elsewhere. Scotland's league is a small league to say the least and not one where the big stars go (with a few exceptions). Most big named players in Scotland cant hack it outside Scotland.

LOL.. Gary Hooper played in Champions league and did damn well. EPL teams want him. He'll do fine in the EPL. But Henrik Larsson was nobody until he was with Celtic. Barca signed him. Mark Viduka, Artur Boruc, and Aiden McGeady again nobodies who had very successful careers after leaving Celtic. Victor Wanyama will be with a top 4 team this transfer window or next summer, depends if someone is gonna pay the fee Celtic has set on him. So for small league Celtic has no problem producing talent.

90% of that was coming of the bench in the last 10 minutes and the rest was in a cup competition. He was rarely given a starting chance... mostly because the positions he plays had very expensive superstars that had to be played according to the owner, regardless of their form.

Still playing time.

Because he was not good enough... he was an overhyped American player driven forward by the footballing elite in the vain hope of finding a "super talent" from America. Look at Freddy Adu... he was all over the US media and world football media as the next Maradonna... where is he now? Playing for Bahia in Brazil after failed attempts in Europe and the US... he is only 23 (or supposedly only 23).

Jozy wasn't over hyped. He didn't get playing time at Villarreal because of another American.. named Giuseppe Rossi (who plays for Italy). He was loaned to a horrible Hull City team. He went to AZ and worked hard, got first team play and it paid off for AZ. I hope he goes to Schalke as it's team for his style of play.

As for loaning players out.. yes, and a lot of teams do that. But the problem is that the top teams would rather not loan them to someone in the same division and that leaves the lower divisions and overseas and here the quality of the coaching comes into question... so they decide that the best way to improve is to stay at home.

that's ego.

Personally in the UK, I would say that the reserve teams should play in the leagues like in Spain... it really helps in development. The Barca B team regularly challenges for promotion to La Liga and that drives the talent factory. If I remember right, Barca B came in 2nd 2 years ago in the 2nd division.. of course they could not get promoted, but that showed clearly how good the team and the talent is going. Could you imagine Man U reserves team playing in the Championship or League one and the amount of competitive time the reserves would get?

And could imagine how much of nightmare it would be for lower league teams who would get have to drop down in reorganizing the leagues?

 

[PeteEU]

Does anybody in the EU have that control either? No.. every country in the EU has these policies controlled by Frankfurt, Strasbourg, Brussels, Lexumbourg. So try another argument.

That is bull**** and you know it. If France wants to close its borders then it can do so... Scotland cant. If France wants to raise its taxes or lower it, then it can do so.. Scotland cant. If France wants to ban all Muslims from France then France can do so, Scotland cant.... it all has to go through Westminster.

And every team gets a flat TV payout each year as well which is 39 million or more. Then for being in the EPL you get better sponsor deals, better sales, and ticket prices. Last place teams still have 50 million in turnover. It's debt that's the problem for most of these teams because their wage bills are below their turnover.

And why do they have that debt? Because they have to buy players and pay them a bundle, and hence the 50 million in turnover is not enough because the combination of buying players and paying them is way more than the 50 million.

FL Championship is only in 20 or 30 countries.. EPL is in 200 countries...

And?

LOL.. NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB aren't "protected" persay. There are different leagues that are around for those sports. Same with MLS. MLS has $100m fee to start a team in the league so there is no promotion or regulation league. But there is the NASL, U-Pro and others. They have the ability to compete in the US Open Cup (US FA Cup). The League,themselves, are tax exempt but the teams are not. Most sports teams in the US don't own their Stadiums either since they are usually built by public funds. So they pay rent and admission taxes. Then sales taxes.

Of course they are protected, both by government and by the league owners themselves.. It is communism in a capitalistic world... pure and simple. And sales tax is paid by the consumer... not the freaking team.. god dont you yanks understand basic tax systems?

That's funny. Man U signed Fabio and Rafael when they were 17. They couldn't play until they were 18 under FIFA rules. So that rule is set.

Not FIFA, Brazilian rules. Look it up.

Fabregas's move was leaving Barca Academy on a youth contract. Messi left Argentina at 13 on a youth contract. You don't think Newell's Old Boys got screwed?

Fabregas left on a professional contract which he signed at age 15. The whole point is that he signed it a year before he could sign a similar one in Barcelona.

Pique is another of many examples.. Man U signed him before he legally could sign for Barcelona.

Messi came to Barca at a young age yes and on a youth contract but you should know that there was more involved in that. River Plate wanted him but did not want to pay for his treatments and Newels Old Boys certainly could not afford it. Only Barcelona could and did. The rest is history and he did not sign a professional contract before he was 16 years old

So what? players leave clubs all the time.

LOL most of your second team does not leave in the same year... gezz.

Sounders, and Drew Carey is one of the founders of the club. But MLS has everything you want. Wage controls, contract protections and so on. What you want gets you the MLS.

Yes wage controls, control in what teams there are, no regulation, and many other anti-free market measures which are typical of US professional sports.

LOL.. Gary Hooper played in Champions league and did damn well. EPL teams want him. He'll do fine in the EPL. But Henrik Larsson was nobody until he was with Celtic.

Henrik Larsson was a somebody in Sweden and in Holland where he was playing.

Barca signed him.

Yea at the end of his career and he was a great player. One of the rare ones coming out Scotland, as I stated.

Mark Viduka, Artur Boruc, and Aiden McGeady again nobodies who had very successful careers after leaving Celtic.

Not really. Successful in England maybe, but not world wide.

Victor Wanyama will be with a top 4 team this transfer window or next summer, depends if someone is gonna pay the fee Celtic has set on him. So for small league Celtic has no problem producing talent.

So all these players came from their talent factory? .....let me answer that... no.

Still playing time.

LOL yea yea and if you knew anything about football you would know it was pretty much useless time. He barely got warm or got a sweat before the end of the game.

Jozy wasn't over hyped. He didn't get playing time at Villarreal because of another American.. named Giuseppe Rossi (who plays for Italy). He was loaned to a horrible Hull City team. He went to AZ and worked hard, got first team play and it paid off for AZ. I hope he goes to Schalke as it's team for his style of play.

We shall see.

And could imagine how much of nightmare it would be for lower league teams who would get have to drop down in reorganizing the leagues?

Just let the top teams buy these teams places or the teams themselves. And even if that did not happen, just let these reserve teams join at the conference level like all new teams.. with in a few years these teams will be in the leagues.

 

[austrianecon]

That is bull**** and you know it. If France wants to close its borders then it can do so... Scotland cant. If France wants to raise its taxes or lower it, then it can do so.. Scotland cant. If France wants to ban all Muslims from France then France can do so, Scotland cant.... it all has to go through Westminster.

Domestic policy is set by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Only a few things are left to Westminster which is no different then France, Germany or whoever else in the EU. But I knew you wouldn't want to cop to that.

And why do they have that debt? Because they have to buy players and pay them a bundle, and hence the 50 million in turnover is not enough because the combination of buying players and paying them is way more than the 50 million.

They have debts because transfer fees, building stadiums, or owners leveraging the club for buyouts.. Every team in the EPL at then end of the 2011/2012 season had turnover rates greater then all of their wage bills.

Premier League turnover, wages, debt and performance? | News | guardian.co.uk

And?

Means little money for them.

Of course they are protected, both by government and by the league owners themselves.. It is communism in a capitalistic world... pure and simple. And sales tax is paid by the consumer... not the freaking team.. god dont you yanks understand basic tax systems?

They aren't protected in anyway. Government has gone after MLB after steroids (hearings), Government has gotten involved in Labor disputes. But the leagues are considered non-profit because the meet the "standard" of non-profit. MLB, NHL, NFL and whoever associations don't make money. It's the teams that make the money. Actually, the sale of the team are subjected to sales taxes, capital gains taxes or even estate taxes. Washington Redskins were sold due to the burden of estate taxes to the Cooke Family.

Not FIFA, Brazilian rules. Look it up.

I have.. and you are wrong. All international signing have to over the age of 18. So Fabio and Rafael had wait until they were 18. Just like Neymar would have had to weight.

Fabregas left on a professional contract which he signed at age 15. The whole point is that he signed it a year before he could sign a similar one in Barcelona.

Umm, no. Fabregas was 16 and had a youth contract with Bacra. Arsenal signed him on a professional contract when he was 16 as English FA rules state.

Pique is another of many examples.. Man U signed him before he legally could sign for Barcelona.

Not Man U's fault Spain has a 17 y/o limit for Professional contracts.

Messi came to Barca at a young age yes and on a youth contract but you should know that there was more involved in that. River Plate wanted him but did not want to pay for his treatments and Newels Old Boys certainly could not afford it. Only Barcelona could and did. The rest is history and he did not sign a professional contract before he was 16 years old.

Doesn't matter. Barcelona poached Messi from Newels Old Boys for nothing. And I highly doubt Newels couldn't afford the "$900" a month medical costs. Messi wanted to go to Barca.

LOL most of your second team does not leave in the same year... gezz.

Again who cares... they chose to leave.

Yes wage controls, control in what teams there are, no regulation, and many other anti-free market measures which are typical of US professional sports.

There is massive regulation for US sports teams. I don't see Ruby Leagues in Europe forcing places to were protection. :lamo

Henrik Larsson was a somebody in Sweden and in Holland where he was playing.

He wasn't a big name. If he was so fantastic in those leagues he would have been signed by a big team at that time. Instead he had a ****ty career at Feyenoord.

Not really. Successful in England maybe, but not world wide.

Well, McGeady plays in Russia.

So all these players came from their talent factory? .....let me answer that... no.

Aiden McGeady, Shaun Maloney, David Marshall, James Forrest (he made FIFA's watch list in 2012) is a Celtic talent. Victor Wanyama found his legs at Celtic and again if they were such a talent at 18 he would have been signed by other teams.

LOL yea yea and if you knew anything about football you would know it was pretty much useless time. He barely got warm or got a sweat before the end of the game.

A 20 min run out is about showing what you can do. You don't think teams give players chances in reserves games, cup games and such don't pretty much know what the player is gonna do for them?

Just let the top teams buy these teams places or the teams themselves. And even if that did not happen, just let these reserve teams join at the conference level like all new teams.. with in a few years these teams will be in the leagues.

So you want top teams to spend money? Wow, okay... and at Conference level? What about all the clubs that compete to try and get to conference level in the Northern Premier League, Isthmian League or the Southern Football League? Or the other leagues below that.. like I said you want MLS style leagues.

 

[PeteEU]

Domestic policy is set by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Only a few things are left to Westminster which is no different then France, Germany or whoever else in the EU. But I knew you wouldn't want to cop to that.

That is horse**** and you know it. Can Scotland set its defense policy? No. France can..and has nothing to do with the EU. I am not denying that Scotland has a lot of autonomy but calling it a country is like calling California a country.... California has far more control over its business than Scotland and California aint no country.

They have debts because transfer fees, building stadiums, or owners leveraging the club for buyouts.. Every team in the EPL at then end of the 2011/2012 season had turnover rates greater then all of their wage bills.

Which must mean that the income is not big enough or the costs are too big right? Costs like transfer fees and high wages that eat up almost all the income? After all your income from TV and stadiums and so on, should cover your cost like wages and player buys... but they dont.

They aren't protected in anyway. Government has gone after MLB after steroids (hearings), Government has gotten involved in Labor disputes.

LOL they are majorly protected and you know that. Can I set up a baseball team in the US and join the league? Nope, because of the allowed cartel in MLB. And then there is the whole draft policy... man talk about communism.

But the leagues are considered non-profit because the meet the "standard" of non-profit.

The hell they do.. another smoke screen. They "meet" the standard because of loopholes put in place by politicians to protect the various sports. All major US sports break basic anti-trust laws but are exempt by Congress.

MLB, NHL, NFL and whoever associations don't make money. It's the teams that make the money. Actually, the sale of the team are subjected to sales taxes, capital gains taxes or even estate taxes. Washington Redskins were sold due to the burden of estate taxes to the Cooke Family.

More bull****. Sales of a team has to be approved by all the owners and the new owner has to be approved.. else there is no sale. And again.. SALES TAX is paid by the ****ing consumer not the company.

I have.. and you are wrong. All international signing have to over the age of 18. So Fabio and Rafael had wait until they were 18. Just like Neymar would have had to weight.

Oh? Have you read the exceptions to the rule? If the parents move along with the under 18 to the new country and are employed not in relation to the sale... then hello loophole! And the Man U twins signed for Man U under the age of 18, but could not be registered to play for the first team before the age of 18... big difference.

Umm, no. Fabregas was 16 and had a youth contract with Bacra. Arsenal signed him on a professional contract when he was 16 as English FA rules state.

And in Spain the rules (soon to be changed) is aged 18 I believe. Before that, players are on youth contracts.

Not Man U's fault Spain has a 17 y/o limit for Professional contracts.

Its 18, and no it is not, but they surely do exploit it big time dont they? Look at the UK's youth teams... tons and tons of non English talent pushing out the English talent.... and aint that the whole problem we are discussing?

Doesn't matter. Barcelona poached Messi from Newels Old Boys for nothing. And I highly doubt Newels couldn't afford the "$900" a month medical costs. Messi wanted to go to Barca.

900 dollars a month is a massive amount for a club like Newels, especially for a 13 year old. And Messi could have cared less at age 13, it was his father that wanted his son to get the medical treatment he needed and hence he made it a condition of any youth contract with any club and most clubs said no. Barca did not.

Again who cares... they chose to leave.

LOL you just dont get it do you.. Real Madrids second team is mostly Spanish players, who never get a chance in the first team and their contracts are up and some are not being renewed while others are leaving on a Bosman.. because of the lack of possibilities on the first team. There has been a 2 year old war going on between Murinho and the B-Team coach... but guessing you not heard about that.

He wasn't a big name. If he was so fantastic in those leagues he would have been signed by a big team at that time. Instead he had a ****ty career at Feyenoord.

No he is a Swede and like all Scandinavians, any real big players go through Holland in most cases. Scandinavian players are often ignored by the big leagues and that is why they go through teams like Ajax and PSV before hitting it big time. Even Michael Laudrup went that way although it was to a relative minor Italian team in Lazio (at the time). Brian Laudrup went through a minor German team where he had success before going to Bayern and then to Italy and finally ended up in Rangers.

Well, McGeady plays in Russia.

so for big $$$$$$

So you want top teams to spend money? Wow, okay... and at Conference level? What about all the clubs that compete to try and get to conference level in the Northern Premier League, Isthmian League or the Southern Football League? Or the other leagues below that.. like I said you want MLS style leagues.

No I dont, I want the EPL to emulate the Spanish leagues by having a fully competitive 2nd team/reserve team playing in the lower leagues. It works, you can not deny this... Spain is World and European champions, and all their players at some point in time played in the 2nd team/reserve team in the lower leagues of the Spanish game. If you look at most Spanish clubs, their reserve teams are in the 2nd or 3rd divisions and in the case of Barcelona their team actually (not this year) is competing for promotion (not that they can get promoted)

There was actually a funny case a few years ago, when the second team of Malaga FC were close to getting promoted all in the while the first team were getting relegated. In the end the second team missed out by a few points and both teams were relegated since you cant have a first and second team in the same league according to the rules.

 

[austrianecon]

That is horse**** and you know it. Can Scotland set its defense policy? No. France can..and has nothing to do with the EU. I am not denying that Scotland has a lot of autonomy but calling it a country is like calling California a country.... California has far more control over its business than Scotland and California aint no country.

Maybe you should read EU treaties then come talk to me.

Which must mean that the income is not big enough or the costs are too big right? Costs like transfer fees and high wages that eat up almost all the income? After all your income from TV and stadiums and so on, should cover your cost like wages and player buys... but they dont.

It's not an either or. I've already provided a damn link for you.. that those costs of wages are covered. Premier League turnover, wages, debt and performance? | News | guardian.co.uk

Transfers are a different story but you don't want youth talent poached.

More bull****. Sales of a team has to be approved by all the owners and the new owner has to be approved.. else there is no sale. And again.. SALES TAX is paid by the ****ing consumer not the company.

First off.. while the sale and the new owner has to be approved it doesn't negate the fact these teams are subject to taxes. No, teams pay sale taxes when they buy all the damn supplies they need for the year. If they buy 1 million shirts to be sold and only 500,000 are sold, the teams prepaid the sales tax and won't get reimbursed until the other 500,000 are sold. Works every way for a business.

Oh? Have you read the exceptions to the rule? If the parents move along with the under 18 to the new country and are employed not in relation to the sale... then hello loophole! And the Man U twins signed for Man U under the age of 18, but could not be registered to play for the first team before the age of 18... big difference.

Yep, I know the rules. But that is a move to that country of which they are gonna play. So they are residents of said country.

Its 18, and no it is not, but they surely do exploit it big time dont they? Look at the UK's youth teams... tons and tons of non English talent pushing out the English talent.... and aint that the whole problem we are discussing?

When Pique left it was 17. No, we aren't discussing that. You are bitching about youth talent signing professional contracts at 16.

LOL you just dont get it do you.. Real Madrids second team is mostly Spanish players, who never get a chance in the first team and their contracts are up and some are not being renewed while others are leaving on a Bosman.. because of the lack of possibilities on the first team. There has been a 2 year old war going on between Murinho and the B-Team coach... but guessing you not heard about that.

No, I heard and there are only 3 talents that deserve first time play.. Dani Carvajal (who Real can buyback), Alvaro Morata (who I talked about), and Jesé Rodríguez. All are under 22.

No he is a Swede and like all Scandinavians, any real big players go through Holland in most cases. Scandinavian players are often ignored by the big leagues and that is why they go through teams like Ajax and PSV before hitting it big time. Even Michael Laudrup went that way although it was to a relative minor Italian team in Lazio (at the time). Brian Laudrup went through a minor German team where he had success before going to Bayern and then to Italy and finally ended up in Rangers.

And I am not disputing that. But Larrson didn't shine in Dutch league, his transfer fee was less then 1 million.

so for big $$$$$$

Nah, sold for 9.5 million (pounds) and his salary is around 1.5 million. He'll probably be sold to an EPL team this summer.

No I dont, I want the EPL to emulate the Spanish leagues by having a fully competitive 2nd team/reserve team playing in the lower leagues. It works, you can not deny this... Spain is World and European champions, and all their players at some point in time played in the 2nd team/reserve team in the lower leagues of the Spanish game. If you look at most Spanish clubs, their reserve teams are in the 2nd or 3rd divisions and in the case of Barcelona their team actually (not this year) is competing for promotion (not that they can get promoted)

There was actually a funny case a few years ago, when the second team of Malaga FC were close to getting promoted all in the while the first team were getting relegated. In the end the second team missed out by a few points and both teams were relegated since you cant have a first and second team in the same league according to the rules.

Again.. what about other teams in lower leagues that would get screwed? You still have yet to address that. SPL is reorganizing and Rangers FC are gonna get screwed even though they won promotion.

Btw your argument for Spain is fail. Spain's team comes from Real, Barca and overseas (Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Bayern Munich)... the exception to the rule is Beñat (4 caps) and Jesús Navas (23 caps).. so two teams provide the majority of team.

 

[PeteEU]

Maybe you should read EU treaties then come talk to me.

Oh I know what is in the EU treaty and in no way can you compare Scotland to a country like Ireland or Germany... in no ****ing way.

It's not an either or. I've already provided a damn link for you.. that those costs of wages are covered. Premier League turnover, wages, debt and performance? | News | guardian.co.uk

Transfers are a different story but you don't want youth talent poached.

And there is much more to a club than wages for players... A company that only earns enough money to pay wages is a bad company.

First off.. while the sale and the new owner has to be approved it doesn't negate the fact these teams are subject to taxes. No, teams pay sale taxes when they buy all the damn supplies they need for the year. If they buy 1 million shirts to be sold and only 500,000 are sold, the teams prepaid the sales tax and won't get reimbursed until the other 500,000 are sold. Works every way for a business.

That is not how VAT works in most countries. Companies get reimbursed the VAT regardless if they sell it or not.

No, I heard and there are only 3 talents that deserve first time play.. Dani Carvajal (who Real can buyback), Alvaro Morata (who I talked about), and Jesé Rodríguez. All are under 22.

Yea and who did you hear that from... Murinho the failure?

And I am not disputing that. But Larrson didn't shine in Dutch league, his transfer fee was less then 1 million.

And he was hardly a failure either. Where he was making his biggest impact was on the Swedish national team.

Nah, sold for 9.5 million (pounds) and his salary is around 1.5 million. He'll probably be sold to an EPL team this summer.

Doubt that... British teams cant meet the wages of the Russian oligarchs. If he is this great player, then they will want to keep him.

Again.. what about other teams in lower leagues that would get screwed? You still have yet to address that. SPL is reorganizing and Rangers FC are gonna get screwed even though they won promotion.

How exactly would they get screwed? There would just be more competition and it might actually improve those players.

Btw your argument for Spain is fail. Spain's team comes from Real, Barca and overseas (Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Bayern Munich)... the exception to the rule is Beñat (4 caps) and Jesús Navas (23 caps).. so two teams provide the majority of team.

Tsk... and where did those players start? In the lower leagues. And yes those 2 teams traditionally have the best players and hence provide the core of the national team... but you also forget the historical perspective... It use to be that the national manager had to have a certain amount of Real and Barca players regardless of who was better. On top of that, Real and Barca have tended to buy the young talent to their youth teams (more Barca the last 20 years) but there are more and more exceptions. But in the end, all the major talents are young people who have been brought up in the lower leagues, either by smaller clubs or in the big clubs 2nd team.

Isco from Malaga for example, the young player of the year last year...started in the Valencia B team, was not found "good enough", and then join Malaga to play on the B Team there... and well..

But lets look at Beñat.. where did he start? Oh yea in the Bilbao second team before he was sold to Beits, where he has blossomed. Problem is he plays a role on the national team where the competition is rather harsh... Busquests and Xabi Alonso are the primary players there.

Jesus Navas is a special case.. he supposedly been sold to Man City, and that is a train wreck waiting to happen.. I feel sorry for him. Not that Man City is not a great team, but that Jesus Navas is very fragile..mentally. He has not played a lot in the national team, not because he is not good enough, but simply because he was getting home sick after just being away a few days.

Point is, most of these up and coming stars have all played for the B team in a real competitive league. Xavi from Barcelona played over 60 games for Barcelona B before making his debut for the first team.. how you think that worked out?

 

[PeteEU]

But if we get back on topic... watching the Brazil vs England game..

It is glaringly obvious that the main problem is not skill, but football intelligence. Walcott is having a horrible game (as usual almost), where not only his skill often lets him down, but when he does get that part right, then his footballing brain fails massively. Same for Milner. The English team looks more like a bunch of bullies on the pitch that anything else and are getting nothing out of it... even though at the time of this writing it was 1-1.

 

[PeteEU]

1-2 now Roony goal.. brilliant but another individual effort.. not much team play. It is not deserved at all btw... Brazil are as usual their own worse enemy hehe.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Back on topic -

-- In 2005, 10.33% of the minutes played by Premier League players was by under-21s, the highest figure of Europe's big five leagues. In eight seasons it has dropped to 4.45%, lower than all its major competitors.

--snip--

when English under-21s are considered, the figure falls to 2.28% for last season, the lowest it has ever been. Only 35 English under-21s played in the Premier League last season, also a new low. Link.

The premier league is a cash cow that the English authorities can't / won't change but we seriously need to look at alternative use of the other divisions.

 

[Andalublue]

The trouble is, for England football - the situation isn't working. If your priorities are Man Utd / Man City / Liverpool / Arsenal etc then fine, focus on team success but we are doing really badly at International level. Brazil is about 1 year away and we can guarantee that success will be very hard to come by.

I just don't see anything improving the situation.

Your post is largely correct in relation to international football but your the trouble is... presupposes that international football should be the top priority for any football fan. As you say, "If your priorities are Man Utd / Man City / Liverpool / Arsenal etc then fine," and I'd say that it is fine. I'd far rather see City win the CL than see England win the WC, and I don't see anything odd in that. Nationalism and football make poor bed-mates and I get very uncomfortable with all the flag-waving and jingoism before any major international competition. It's the clubs investing all the time and money developing the talent so I don't see anything odd in them prioritising their own success over that of the national selections.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Your post is largely correct in relation to international football but your the trouble is... presupposes that international football should be the top priority for any football fan. As you say, "If your priorities are Man Utd / Man City / Liverpool / Arsenal etc then fine," and I'd say that it is fine. I'd far rather see City win the CL than see England win the WC, and I don't see anything odd in that. Nationalism and football make poor bed-mates and I get very uncomfortable with all the flag-waving and jingoism before any major international competition. It's the clubs investing all the time and money developing the talent so I don't see anything odd in them prioritising their own success over that of the national selections.

The sad thing is that footie - especially at premier league level - has very little to do with the nations' football. We are (not being nationalist) in an era where home grown players are in the absolute minority. I think having real characters or talented stars like Cantona / Schmeichel / Bergkampf / Henry / Viera etc lifted the game and brought our players into contact with the best from overseas but really - now we have a multitude of unknowns who week in week out add nothing really to the local game.

I think I can understand your desire to have the latest and best paid footballing mercenaries turn up to win a league or title for the highest dollar while playing in the colours of your favourite team but that's really all the appeal seems to be. I remember watching the story of Bert Trautman and admiring his exploits for Man City but he decorated himself and swathed himself in the city tradition. He "became" a Mancunian, admired and respected by the supporters.

Sorry Andy - I'm a bit tired tonight so am rambling but I hope you "get" what I mean.