What's More Likely?

[jaeger19]

The victims had guns. And, they are dead.

Mic drop

so? Whats your point?

the NRA has never stated that if you own a firearm you are immortal.

 

[jaeger19]

Nope. You provided some garbage from a fake news site.

ITS a STUDY FROM THE CDC!!!

:doh

 

[calamity]

ITS a STUDY FROM THE CDC!!!

:doh

...misrepresented by CNSNews.

 

[calamity]

so? Whats your point?

the NRA has never stated that if you own a firearm you are immortal.

Having a gun in the home makes you more likely to be shot dead than not having a gun. Fact.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Statistically, having a gun in the home makes you more likely to be shot dead than not having a gun.

Mic drop.

The victims had guns. And, they are dead.

Mic drop

Are you even trying anymore, or just continuing to track bull**** all over the thread? Looks like the latter.

 

[TaterTots]

There are news stories all over the internet about how a gun owner "saved the day." That doesn't get as much coverage as 17 kids being killed though.

 

[calamity]

Are you even trying anymore, or just continuing to track bull**** all over the thread? Looks like the latter.

The only bull**** in this thread is gun zealot bull****.

 

[Vox]

My experience has given me a clear answer to the following question. What is more likely, being shot by a "legal" gun owner or using a legally owned gun to defend yourself from a hoodlum?

The kids in Florida have it right. They consider it much more likely that someone will be shot by some nut with a gun than they do the crazy notion that a good guy with a gun will prevent them from being shot. Personal experience bears this out. I know a dozen people who were shot dead. But, yet, I know no one who shot someone dead in self-defense. No one.

Your post is such nonsense.

Check the statistics.

By far most cases of gun defense involve the assailant fleeing when the gun is pointed at him.

No one killed or injured.....just a life saved.

 

[calamity]

Your post is such nonsense.

Check the statistics.

By far most cases of gun defense involve the assailant fleeing when the gun is pointed at him.

No one killed or injured.....just a life saved.

Bull****. Far more people get shot by their own guns than use them for self defense.

 

[Vox]

Bull****. Far more people get shot by their own guns than use them for self defense.

Wrong.

You failed to check the statistics.

 

[Vox]

Here, I'll help you with an actual informed article.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...roup-claims-guns-rarely-used-for-self-defense

 

[calamity]

Wrong.

You failed to check the statistics.

21,000 people killed themselves with their own gun in 2014. Show me where 21,000 people saved a life with a gun in 2014.

 

[calamity]

Here, I'll help you with an actual informed article.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...roup-claims-guns-rarely-used-for-self-defense

NRA fake News.

 

[Black Dog]

21,000 people killed themselves with their own gun in 2014. Show me where 21,000 people saved a life with a gun in 2014.

Suicide is not a crime in the US? So that stat means little where gun homicides or crime is concerned. Actually it was around 67,740 times in 2014.

The center also dives into the thorny thicket of how often the presence of a gun stops a crime — either violent or against property, such as a burglary — from happening. The gun lobby trots out an annual figure of 2.5 million such instances. But an analysis of five years' worth of stats collected by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey puts the number much, much lower — about 67,740 times a year. - Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA

Anything else?

 

[calamity]

Suicide is not a crime in the US? So that stat means little where gun homicides or crime is concerned. Actually it was around 67,740 times in 2014.

The center also dives into the thorny thicket of how often the presence of a gun stops a crime — either violent or against property, such as a burglary — from happening. The gun lobby trots out an annual figure of 2.5 million such instances. But an analysis of five years' worth of stats collected by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey puts the number much, much lower — about 67,740 times a year. - Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA

Anything else?

I never said it was a crime. But, it is a good way to end up dying by your own gun.

And, a gun supposedly stopping a burglary is not exactly saving a life. Now is it?

Besides, NRA = Fake News.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Suicide is not a crime in the US? So that stat means little where gun homicides or crime is concerned. Actually it was around 67,740 times in 2014.

The center also dives into the thorny thicket of how often the presence of a gun stops a crime — either violent or against property, such as a burglary — from happening. The gun lobby trots out an annual figure of 2.5 million such instances. But an analysis of five years' worth of stats collected by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey puts the number much, much lower — about 67,740 times a year. - Gun and self-defense statistics that might surprise you -- and the NRA

Anything else?

Using your same reference: "259 justifiable homicides also pale compared with, in the same year, 8,342 criminal homicides using guns". That's 32.2 criminal homicides for every ONE justifiable homicide...

...and that's even though we now have more guns than people in America. So...exactly when is this "armed society is a polite society" claim by Heinlein going to come true, if we've already got more guns than people, yet we STILL have by far the highest homicide rate of any first-world nation?

Oh, wait - I know, silly me, I forgot! Thou Shalt Never Question the NRA's claims, 'cause more guns ALWAYS makes people safer!

:doh

 

[Black Dog]

I never said it was a crime. But, it is a good way to end up dying by your own gun.

I did not say you did, nice red herring though.

And, a gun supposedly stopping a burglary is not exactly saving a life. Now is it?

Nothing in the statistics says anything about burglaries now do they? Again nice red herring.

Besides, NRA = Fake News.

Another red herring. Please point out what I posted or even the article has to do with the NRA? It was from the Los Angeles times.

You and Glenn Contrarian, might want to actually read what's posted before making asinine assumptions.

 

[Black Dog]

Using your same reference: "259 justifiable homicides also pale compared with, in the same year, 8,342 criminal homicides using guns". That's 32.2 criminal homicides for every ONE justifiable homicide...

So instead of looking at how many times a gun is used in self defence, you only look at how many times someone was killed in self defence? To the tune of over 67.000 times? You might want to check your fly, your political agenda is hanging out.

...and that's even though we now have more guns than people in America. So...exactly when is this "armed society is a polite society" claim by Heinlein going to come true, if we've already got more guns than people, yet we STILL have by far the highest homicide rate of any first-world nation?

Lots of baseless assumptions here on your part. According to latest polls those weapons are owned by about 75,000,000 people out of 330,000,000 with only 8,342 gun homicides? I would say that could be a lot worse. The number of guns seem to have no effect on the level of gun crime. That is unless you have stats no one else including the FBI has?

Oh, wait - I know, silly me, I forgot! Thou Shalt Never Question the NRA's claims, 'cause more guns ALWAYS makes people safer!

:doh

That is funny. If you had actually read the article you would have seen it was from the LA times. And the stats from the NRA, were debunked.

:doh

 

[Glen Contrarian]

So instead of looking at how many times a gun is used in self defence, you only look at how many times someone was killed in self defence? To the tune of over 67.000 times? You might want to check your fly, your political agenda is hanging out.

By the same token, it doesn't show how many times a threat was made using a gun without it being fired, or how many times someone was robbed with a gun without it being fired, or how many times an innocent person was wounded. You have to compare apples to apples - compare deaths to deaths, compare robberies committed to robberies prevented, innocents wounded compared to criminals wounded.

Apples to apples, guy.[/QUOTE]

Lots of baseless assumptions here on your part. According to latest polls those weapons are owned by about 75,000,000 people out of 330,000,000 with only 8,342 gun homicides? I would say that could be a lot worse. The number of guns seem to have no effect on the level of gun crime. That is unless you have stats no one else including the FBI has?

Judging by the experience of every other first-world nation on the planet, that total could also be a heck of a lot BETTER. Ah, but I forget - it doesn't matter how many innocent Americans get killed, you'll never ever think for even a moment that an 18 year-old high school kid shouldn't be able to purchase an AR-15 with a 100-round magazine...'cause that's obviously just for the firing range, honest!

That is funny. If you had actually read the article you would have seen it was from the LA times. And the stats from the NRA, were debunked.

:doh

That was sarcasm on my part...because the NRA has been using wrong stats and hatemongering and scaremongering to drive up gun sales for years - after all, being a puppet of the gun manufacturers, their JOB is to protect the revenue streams of Ruger, H&K, Winchester, etc., ad nauseum...and all the while telling you and yours that they're there to "protect your rights". Yeah, if you believe that one, I've got a bridge in the MS Delta to sell you - cheap!

 

[Black Dog]

By the same token, it doesn't show how many times a threat was made using a gun without it being fired, or how many times someone was robbed with a gun without it being fired, or how many times an innocent person was wounded. You have to compare apples to apples - compare deaths to deaths, compare robberies committed to robberies prevented, innocents wounded compared to criminals wounded.

Apples to apples, guy.

Not relevant to the question asked or his reply, you however run with that, lol.

Judging by the experience of every other first-world nation on the planet, that total could also be a heck of a lot BETTER. Ah, but I forget - it doesn't matter how many innocent Americans get killed, you'll never ever think for even a moment that an 18 year-old high school kid shouldn't be able to purchase an AR-15 with a 100-round magazine...'cause that's obviously just for the firing range, honest!

I agree it could be a lot better. People like you however do not want to address the lion's share of gun crime. The other other 38% not including suicide, because I don't feel the need to pad stats. But who cares about a bunch of gang banging black thugs killing each other in the inner city over drugs, when we can cry over the death of little white kids with a weapon used in 2% of crime.

Yea it could be a lot better.

That was sarcasm on my part...because the NRA has been using wrong stats and hatemongering and scaremongering to drive up gun sales for years - after all, being a puppet of the gun manufacturers, their JOB is to protect the revenue streams of Ruger, H&K, Winchester, etc., ad nauseum...and all the while telling you and yours that they're there to "protect your rights". Yeah, if you believe that one, I've got a bridge in the MS Delta to sell you - cheap!

Nice red herring. I know why you did it, and it was laughable then, and even more so now as you try and obfuscate.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Relevant to the question asked or his reply, you however run with that, lol.



I agree it could be a lot better. People like you however do not want to address the lion's share of gun crime. The other other 38% not including suicide, because I don't feel the need to pad stats. But who cares about a bunch of gang banging black thugs killing each other in the inner city over drugs, when we can cry over the death of little white kids with a weapon used in 2% of crime.

Yea it could be a lot better.



Nice red herring. I know why you did it, and it was laughable then, and even more so now as you try and obfuscate.

Have you ever lived in a very poor area where very few people had firearms? I have. Manila's poverty is far worse than almost anything we have stateside...yet despite the fact that its other crime rates are high, its homicide rates are about the same as Louisiana. Imagine that - a poverty-ridden, drug-infested city of nearly 15,000,000 residents has a homicide about the same as Louisiana!

Why? As far as I can tell, the two major factors in today's homicide rates are (1) ease of access to firearms and (2) poverty. You can see that in America, too - the Midwest has about the same rate of firearm ownership as the Deep South does, but the Deep South has a much higher homicide rate. What's the difference? The Deep South has a great deal more poverty (with all the pressures and frustrations that brings) and firearms are relatively easy to afford. To be sure, that doesn't let the Midwest off the hook since their homicide rates are still significantly higher than anything found in the rest of the First World nations...but this does serve to show that poverty is a very important factor when it comes to gun deaths.

And no, the thing about the NRA isn't a red herring - it's quite real. It's just that you've convinced yourself to never see what's so obvious to the rest of us.

 

[Black Dog]

Have you ever lived in a very poor area where very few people had firearms? I have. Manila's poverty is far worse than almost anything we have stateside...yet despite the fact that its other crime rates are high, its homicide rates are about the same as Louisiana. Imagine that - a poverty-ridden, drug-infested city of nearly 15,000,000 residents has a homicide about the same as Louisiana!

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, 704 East 92nd place. My best friend was killed for not joining the gang. Don't step to me with that nonsense. That however has NOTHING to do with anything I said. You can take your dick measuring contest someplace else.

Why? As far as I can tell, the two major factors in today's homicide rates are (1) ease of access to firearms and (2) poverty. You can see that in America, too - the Midwest has about the same rate of firearm ownership as the Deep South does, but the Deep South has a much higher homicide rate. What's the difference? The Deep South has a great deal more poverty (with all the pressures and frustrations that brings) and firearms are relatively easy to afford. To be sure, that doesn't let the Midwest off the hook since their homicide rates are still significantly higher than anything found in the rest of the First World nations...but this does serve to show that poverty is a very important factor when it comes to gun deaths.

All we have to do to stop most of the gun crime is legalize drugs and end the drug war. Our levels of gun crime would be no more than that of other civilized western countries if not lower. Again this has nothing to do with your comments or my statements. Just another red herring.

If you are not going to address my original comments or defend yours, we are done here.

And no, the thing about the NRA isn't a red herring - it's quite real. It's just that you've convinced yourself to never see what's so obvious to the rest of us.

You're obviously are clueless as to what a red herring is. On top of that nothing I stated or addressed had anything to do with the NRA at all.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

 

[Shoe]

My experience has given me a clear answer to the following question. What is more likely, being shot by a "legal" gun owner or using a legally owned gun to defend yourself from a hoodlum?

The kids in Florida have it right. They consider it much more likely that someone will be shot by some nut with a gun than they do the crazy notion that a good guy with a gun will prevent them from being shot. Personal experience bears this out. I know a dozen people who were shot dead. But, yet, I know no one who shot someone dead in self-defense. No one.

The question should be what happens to an unlawful shooter after they crash, bang, and shoot em up. It should be a federal crime (or some other lawful order) with the death penalty for somebody to carry a gun while committing a crime.

The second amendment was an 18th century ideal, it reflected the lifestyles and times, etc., of the people who existed in the 18th century; and it must have reflected the ubiquitous existence at the time of the death penalty.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

Then, get all of the prison inmates while they are still incarcerated into construction jobs building more prisons and infrastructure.

Can't the Trump administration come up with any original ideas? They could push the death penalty on the States by threatening the removal federal funds.

 

[calamity]

The question should be what happens to an unlawful shooter after they crash, bang, and shoot em up. It should be a federal crime (or some other lawful order) with the death penalty for somebody to carry a gun while committing a crime.

The second amendment was an 18th century ideal, it reflected the lifestyles and times, etc., of the people who existed in the 18th century; and it must have reflected the ubiquitous existence at the time of the death penalty.

Let the punishment fit the crime.

Then, get all of the prison inmates while they are still incarcerated into construction jobs building more prisons and infrastructure.

Can't the Trump administration come up with any original ideas? They could push the death penalty on the States by threatening the removal federal funds.

I'd be on board with death penalty for anyone committing a gun crime like that. I doubt our gun zealots would be though. In fact, I'm sure of it.

 

[calamity]

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, 704 East 92nd place. My best friend was killed for not joining the gang. Don't step to me with that nonsense. That however has NOTHING to do with anything I said. You can take your dick measuring contest someplace else.



All we have to do to stop most of the gun crime is legalize drugs and end the drug war. Our levels of gun crime would be no more than that of other civilized western countries if not lower. Again this has nothing to do with your comments or my statements. Just another red herring.

If you are not going to address my original comments or defend yours, we are done here.



You're obviously are clueless as to what a red herring is. On top of that nothing I stated or addressed had anything to do with the NRA at all.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

School shootings and other mass murders by firearms, like we saw in Vegas, for example, have nothing to do with drug laws. Neither do domestic situations, like we saw in that suburb of Columbus, Ohio last weekend, where two cops were shot dead. In fact we'll over 90% of the women shot dead have absolutely nothing to do with drug laws.