What would it take for someone to be able to change their gender?

[Nomad4Ever]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

For example, most of you do not believe that simply taking estrogen to develop secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and changed fat/muscle distributions is enough.

I have also seen the argument that, because trans men and women need to inject estrogen/testosterone instead of producing it naturally (even though it can be produced naturally in small amounts), that is somehow philosophically different than producing it naturally which I don't understand. Basically because it isn't "natural" it doesn't count I guess?

So for those who believe that gender is tied to sex...where is the medical line where someone has changed their sex enough to change genders? If we invented a procedure so testosterone/estrogen could be naturally produces at male/female levels would that change someone's gender? If trans women could have a procedure so they could get pregnant and trans men could get people pregnant...would that change their gender? Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

I ask because it seems sometimes that what some people actually believe is that there are male and female souls or something. That there is no bar that can be passed medically because God gave you a male or female soul or something.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender? Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender? Because a biological framework for what gender is really falls apart at that point.

 

[grip]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

For example, most of you do not believe that simply taking estrogen to develop secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and changed fat/muscle distributions is enough.

I have also seen the argument that, because trans men and women need to inject estrogen/testosterone instead of producing it naturally (even though it can be produced naturally in small amounts), that is somehow philosophically different than producing it naturally which I don't understand. Basically because it isn't "natural" it doesn't count I guess?

So for those who believe that gender is tied to sex...where is the medical line where someone has changed their sex enough to change genders? If we invented a procedure so testosterone/estrogen could be naturally produces at male/female levels would that change someone's gender? If trans women could have a procedure so they could get pregnant and trans men could get people pregnant...would that change their gender? Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

I ask because it seems sometimes that what some people actually believe is that there are male and female souls or something. That there is no bar that can be passed medically because God gave you a male or female soul or something.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender? Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender? Because a biological framework for what gender is really falls apart at that point.

I think someone can be whatever they want. Getting others to accept it is another story.

Someone's biological sex is a simple matter of DNA, though their sexuality may be expressed in a multitude of ways. Using the term gender to explain someone's desire to be something sexually different than their biological sex is rather confusing to the majority, but I personally don't mind if that's how they want to express themself.

 

[jonny5]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

Define gender.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Getting others to accept it is another story.

Well, I am asking what it would take for people to accept it.

Using the term gender to explain someone's desire to be something sexually different than their biological sex is rather confusing to the majority, but I personally don't mind if that's how they want to express themself.

I think it just shows that sexuality is more confusing than most people would like to admit. Most people DO take gender into account with their attraction, even if they would normally be attracted to the opposite sex (at least when it comes to genitals). For example, I do not think most men who are attracted to women would find trans men attractive, even if they were not post OP and had a vagina. I do think most men who are attracted to women find can find a trans woman attractive.

 

[MamboDervish]

What would it take for someone to be able to change their gender?​

An interesting postulate. It strikes me that people don't often realize exactly how close male and female humans are to each other. To the uneducated, they are absolutely polar, but there's really barely any difference at all. Over 99% of what we are is exactly the same. Men even have tits ... with nipples!

Human sexuality isn't black and white. It spans a very broad spectrum.
The totality of humanity is really best expressed in a rainbow flag.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Define gender.

Well, I was rather hoping the conservatives and anti-trans types would operate under whatever assumptions they have on what gender is. So if you could define gender and why you do or don't think it can be changed I'd appreciate it.

 

[Gatsby]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

This entire line of questioning misses the point. Biological sex is the only thing here. There is no separate thing called gender. There are just brains in male bodies, and brains in female bodies. And there are people who behave according to stereotypically male social norms, people who behave according to stereotypical female social norms, and people in between.

"Changing genders" is a nonsensical concept because the underlying premise - that gender is an actual thing that exists, which currently = 'M' and we want to set it to 'F' - is misguided.

For example, most of you do not believe that simply taking estrogen to develop secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and changed fat/muscle distributions is enough.

Correct.

I have also seen the argument that, because trans men and women need to inject estrogen/testosterone instead of producing it naturally (even though it can be produced naturally in small amounts), that is somehow philosophically different than producing it naturally which I don't understand. Basically because it isn't "natural" it doesn't count I guess?

So for those who believe that gender is tied to sex...where is the medical line where someone has changed their sex enough to change genders? If we invented a procedure so testosterone/estrogen could be naturally produces at male/female levels would that change someone's gender? If trans women could have a procedure so they could get pregnant and trans men could get people pregnant...would that change their gender? Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

What I'm trying to figure out is for what purpose? I mean, you could say that you've changed biological sex if you replaced your chromosomes, had the opposite sex's natural hormones, were able to get pregnant, and were basically indistinguishable from the opposite sex.

But "changing genders" isn't something distinct from any of that. You can change your behavior to more closely match the opposite sex's social norms at any time, without doing anything to your body at all. Whether you have "changed genders" for any particular social purpose would vary depending on why you're doing it, what the social purpose is, and what arrangements you can negotiate with society.
 

I ask because it seems sometimes that what some people actually believe is that there are male and female souls or something.

Yes, people who believe in "gender identity" believe that, and it doesn't make any sense. Those of us who believe in objective biological reality reject this idea.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender?

No. Although you could give it a name, avatar, backstory, and personality that would commonly be associated with men or women.

Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender?

No.

 

[jonny5]

Well, I was rather hoping the conservatives and anti-trans types would operate under whatever assumptions they have on what gender is. So if you could define gender and why you do or don't think it can be changed I'd appreciate it.

And there lies the problem. However, for the sake of argument, if gender is sex, then chromosones would need to be changed in fetal development to change gender/sex. There are not MANY people with messed up chromosomes, there are few, a few tenths of a percent in general. Which makes messed up chromosones abnormal and not relevant.

 

[grip]

Well, I am asking what it would take for people to accept it.

It will take time and newer generations not indoctrinated to automatically refute gender change.

I think it just shows that sexuality is more confusing than most people would like to admit. Most people DO take gender into account with their attraction, even if they would normally be attracted to the opposite sex (at least when it comes to genitals). For example, I do not think most men who are attracted to women would find trans men attractive, even if they were not post OP and had a vagina. I do think most men who are attracted to women find can find a trans woman attractive.

Yeah, sexuality is a reflection of personality which is a complicated subject. I also agree that most hetero men can find a trans woman attractive without the desire to physically act on it.

I had a friend in the military brag about getting a $5 blowjob in an area where the prostitutes were 90% transgender. When I told him you realize, you probably had a dude get you off, he went 3 shades of pale and vehemently disagreed. I kept telling him no shame in it man, and had to finally tell him that I was wrong to calm him down. A lot of people are wired differently.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Then chromosones would need to be changed in fetal development

Why? That is sort of the crux of my philosophical question. WHY would they have to be changed in fetal development? Why would it not change someone's gender if we invented some medical procedure that changed them later in life?

There are not MANY people with messed up chromosomes, there are few, a few tenths of a percent in general. Which makes messed up chromosones abnormal and not relevant.

And? If gravity worked 99% of the time but in one place it was reversed we would change our theory of gravity. Do those rare but existing exceptions of people who medically are female in every discernible way but have XY chromosomes just...not have a gender? Are they men? If you met on in real life what pronouns would you use? How did gender work before we learned chromosomes existed medically???

Saying gender is chromosomes is like one of the most logically inconsistent things you could argue.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Thank you for your detailed reply.

This entire line of questioning misses the point. Biological sex is the only thing here. There is no separate thing called gender.

Why does it miss the point? The point is to ask people who believe biological sex is the only there here what level of medical sexual change would be required for someone born a man to be a woman or vise versa.

What I'm trying to figure out is for what purpose? I mean, you could say that you've changed biological sex if you replaced your chromosomes, had the opposite sex's natural hormones, were able to get pregnant, and were basically indistinguishable from the opposite sex.

Purpose? Because someone wanted to, I imagine. What other purpose would there be?

So if someone could step into The Machine and come out perfectly the other sex, you would accept them as a man/woman regardless of what their birth sex was? Would they be afforded the same wiggle room when it comes to chromosomes not matching and infertility that cisgender people are?

No. Although you could give it a name, avatar, backstory, and personality that would commonly be associated with men or women.

If it didn't have a gender, would the only "real" way to refer to it be it/its? Why would you presumable refer to a robot like C3PO as he/him if that isn't his/its gender?

 

[Gatsby]

Why does it miss the point? The point is to ask people who believe biological sex is the only there here what level of medical sexual change would be required for someone born a man to be a woman or vise versa.

If a person was biologically indistinguishable from whatever sex they were trying to present themselves as, then I would say that for all intents and purposes they are that biological sex.

How that maps onto "gender" - which isn't a real thing but a social construct - would depend on the social context and what the circumstance is.

Purpose? Because someone wanted to, I imagine. What other purpose would there be?

"Purpose" not in the sense of why they did it, but in the sense of why anyone should care which sex label they use for themselves. For normal social interactions? To enter into a romantic relationship with a religious person who considers same-sex relations sinful? To use a restroom? To enter a sports league?

Each of those questions is going to have a different answer for when someone has "transitioned" to be considered the opposite sex. In some cases it will depend on the individual people.

So if someone could step into The Machine and come out perfectly the other sex, you would accept them as a man/woman regardless of what their birth sex was?

Again my question is: For what purpose? I'm unclear what it means to "accept them as a man/woman" in this context. Would I be OK with such a person playing in women's sports if they stepped into this machine and were physically female for all practical purposes? Sure. Would I personally want to date them? No, probably not.

Would they be afforded the same wiggle room when it comes to chromosomes not matching and infertility that cisgender people are?

It depends on what they are trying to do that requires wiggle room.

If it didn't have a gender, would the only "real" way to refer to it be it/its?

Yes.

Why would you presumable refer to a robot like C3PO as he/him if that isn't his/its gender?

Because he is voiced by a male actor, has a male-looking body, and I assume is referred to that way by the other characters in the film at some point.

But a robot isn't actually male or female in any meaningful sense. They aren't biological at all. At most, they have a training dataset that allows them to mimic stereotypical male or female personalities.

 

[mrjurrs]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

For example, most of you do not believe that simply taking estrogen to develop secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and changed fat/muscle distributions is enough.

I have also seen the argument that, because trans men and women need to inject estrogen/testosterone instead of producing it naturally (even though it can be produced naturally in small amounts), that is somehow philosophically different than producing it naturally which I don't understand. Basically because it isn't "natural" it doesn't count I guess?

So for those who believe that gender is tied to sex...where is the medical line where someone has changed their sex enough to change genders? If we invented a procedure so testosterone/estrogen could be naturally produces at male/female levels would that change someone's gender? If trans women could have a procedure so they could get pregnant and trans men could get people pregnant...would that change their gender? Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

I ask because it seems sometimes that what some people actually believe is that there are male and female souls or something. That there is no bar that can be passed medically because God gave you a male or female soul or something.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender? Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender? Because a biological framework for what gender is really falls apart at that point.

As I understand it...because gender is from the brain, changing gender would require an alteration in how the brain perceives itself. And that is far above my pay grade.

Bonus question...Referring to inanimate objects as male/female is quite common.

 

[jonny5]

Saying gender is chromosomes is like one of the most logically inconsistent things you could argue.

You are a horrible debater, unable to avoid irrelevant personal comments.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

You are a horrible debater, unable to avoid irrelevant personal comments.

Hey sorry it seems like you forgot to reply with a response to the arguments I made. Easy mistake to make I understand. Here are the two counter arguments I made in responding to your post.

Then chromosones would need to be changed in fetal development

Why? That is sort of the crux of my philosophical question. WHY would they have to be changed in fetal development? Why would it not change someone's gender if we invented some medical procedure that changed them later in life?

There are not MANY people with messed up chromosomes, there are few, a few tenths of a percent in general. Which makes messed up chromosones abnormal and not relevant.

And? If gravity worked 99% of the time but in one place it was reversed we would change our theory of gravity. Do those rare but existing exceptions of people who medically are female in every discernible way but have XY chromosomes just...not have a gender? Are they men? If you met on in real life what pronouns would you use? How did gender work before we learned chromosomes existed medically???

 

[anatta]

**** all if i know or care. just publish a users manual for those that dont give a shit, so i can ignore it

everybody gets called by their first name is what im doing. respect that or not is not my concern

 

[Nomad4Ever]

**** all if i know or care. just publish a users manual for those that dont give a shit, so i can ignore it

everybody gets called by their first name is what im doing. respect that or not is not my concern

This was posted in the philosophy forum for a reason. What gender is, how it relates to biology, and where we decide to draw the boundaries between things is a philosophical question. If that is not something you want to engage with then don't. But your reply is completely off topic.

 

[anatta]

This was posted in the philosophy forum for a reason. What gender is, how it relates to biology, and where we decide to draw the boundaries between things is a philosophical question. If that is not something you want to engage with then don't. But your reply is completely off topic.

oh well, **** if i care, I have too many things of actual importance to ponder to worry about where you guys draw whatever lines ,,,
maybe i'll just call everyone Steve

 

[jonny5]

Hey sorry it seems like you forgot to reply with a response to the arguments I made.

I didnt.

 

[AmNat]

This is directed at the anti-trans crowd, obviously.

For those than do not believe someone can change their gender because they believe gender is inherently tied to biological sex...what would it take medically for someone to change genders to you?

For example, most of you do not believe that simply taking estrogen to develop secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and changed fat/muscle distributions is enough.

I have also seen the argument that, because trans men and women need to inject estrogen/testosterone instead of producing it naturally (even though it can be produced naturally in small amounts), that is somehow philosophically different than producing it naturally which I don't understand. Basically because it isn't "natural" it doesn't count I guess?

So for those who believe that gender is tied to sex...where is the medical line where someone has changed their sex enough to change genders? If we invented a procedure so testosterone/estrogen could be naturally produces at male/female levels would that change someone's gender? If trans women could have a procedure so they could get pregnant and trans men could get people pregnant...would that change their gender? Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

I ask because it seems sometimes that what some people actually believe is that there are male and female souls or something. That there is no bar that can be passed medically because God gave you a male or female soul or something.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender? Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender? Because a biological framework for what gender is really falls apart at that point.

A man cannot become a woman nor a woman a man. The extremely small number of human beings whose sex can be disagreed about by reasonable people should be left to figure it out for themselves.

Some people claim it comes down to chromosomes, which I think is ridiculous as there are many people with messed up or opposite chromosomes that you wouldn't be able to tell weren't just regular males/females biologically. But if there was a procedure that could change chromosomes would THAT change someone's gender?

This is getting into consciousness-swapping territory. The short answer is that it's impossible so it doesn't matter.

Bonus question: what gender would intelligent AI have? CAN they even have gender? Nobody seems to have an issues referring to C3PO in Star Wars with he/him pronouns despite his lack of biology. If we progressed to a point where we could make robots like in Star Wars would they have a gender? Because a biological framework for what gender is really falls apart at that point.

Computers are not living things and therefore do not have a sex.

And? If gravity worked 99% of the time but in one place it was reversed we would change our theory of gravity.

*dark matter*

 

[Lisa]

I think someone can be whatever they want. Getting others to accept it is another story.

Someone's biological sex is a simple matter of DNA, though their sexuality may be expressed in a multitude of ways. Using the term gender to explain someone's desire to be something sexually different than their biological sex is rather confusing to the majority, but I personally don't mind if that's how they want to express themself.

I see this argument often. How are you forced to accept that someone is transgender? Is there a petition that you are forced to sign or a pledge that you have ben forced top take? Were you forced to give a donation to the HRC?

Trans people are going to exists regardless if you accept it or not. They have existed fort more than 70 years medically and they aren't going away, ever. You need to just get over it and accept that they are equals to you instead of whining that you are being forced to do anything or someone is shoving something down your throat because you know that they exist openly and publicly as equals to you and everyone else. Conservatives have already lost the social battle because the majority of people support equal rights for LGBT people. Maybe trans people should start coming after you and trying to cancel your existence, or would that be wrong if they did it to you?

As I understand it...because gender is from the brain, changing gender would require an alteration in how the brain perceives itself. And that is far above my pay grade.

That is not possible with psychotherapy, surgery, ECT, or medication. It was tried in the past with horrific results. This is why the current medical treatment is to change the body as much as possible with current medical technology to align it with the gender of the brain. This involves hormones, various surgeries, vocal coaching and the final gender surgery is desired and warranted. Trans people would love to have functional internal sex organs but as of now that is not possible, Giving trans people the exterior appearance to match their gender identity has had great success on treating gender dysphoria.




Chaning DNA and chromsones would be amaxing but it is not psosible and likly wont be possible in the next 50 years.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

This is getting into consciousness-swapping territory. The short answer is that it's impossible so it doesn't matter.

I find it is a sign of poor intelligence to be unable to engage with hypotheticals. It is a weirdly consistent trend I have noticed with the extremely far right. They can't seem to imagine a world other than that which exists before their own eyes.

Computers are not living things and therefore do not have a sex.

Well, don't you think it is interesting we call robots in movies he/him she/her and not it/its then? You don't think that says anything about language or gender and how they relate to biology?

 

[Napoleon]

Impossible. The end.

 

[Lisa]

Impossible. The end.

So what is your superior alternative solution, Dr Napoleon? Have you consulted with the gender clinic at Wexner as I have suggested you do?

Gender Affirming Primary Care Clinic | Gender Affirming Care

Here is some info from Ohio State – improving lives through excellence in research, education and patient care.

wexnermedical.osu.edu

.

 

[Napoleon]

So what is your superior alternative solution, Dr Napoleon?

For what?