What will happen after we leave Iraq?

Well....assuming we'll get out of Iraq in the next say...5-15 years. What will happen after we leave?

I think things will calm down.

Well, since you ask...

Hatuey said:

Well....assuming we'll get out of Iraq in the next say...5-15 years. What will happen after we leave?

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They enter the 21st century, freedom, education, human and women's rights prosper, they become a stabilizing force in the cesspoll of backwards stoneage savages, the are seen as a bastion of middle east democracy and a shining light of hope for the oppressed in the region, Haliburton stocks soar, turkey shoot for Islamo facists, future home of Billo and his prosperous camel dung turn key bidness, dogs and cats live in peace and I scream "I told you so".

I found it difficult to select any of the options for a few reasons:

1. "A genocide will occur cause a mass exodus."

A. I believe that, considering the fact that tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead, it is accurate to say that genocide is already being committed.

B. There already is a mass exodus from Iraq. Iraqis are fleeing the country at a rate of hundreds of thousands per month (400,000 per month to Syria alone!). This makes it quite obvious that not even the Iraqis themselves have faith that security and stability will ever come to pass in their country.

2. "It'll fall back into chaos."

A. The Kurdish territories are the only portions of Iraq which aren't in a definable state of chaos. I haven't seen any evidence that this will change.

3. "Some chaos, then peace."

A. You're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the Iraqis will magically decide to set aside the ethnic and religious tensions which have been plauging them for hundreds of years and hold hands amidst sunshine and little purple flowers compliments of the American military.

4. "It'll become a peacefull democracy and a strong ally in the ME."

A. The history and current situation of the region strongly suggests that this is not even remotley probable.

So, what will happen? Barring the rise of a dictator, my bet is on the inevitable break up of Iraq into three seperate "nations" and a war over the oil fields.

I couldn't vote on the poll because your question asks "after we leave Iraq?" What will happen when we leave Korea? What will happen when we leave Germany?

We aren't going anyplace soon... Oh, the will of the popular majority will demand it... Sorry Charlie... aint gona happen...

We first must clip the claws of Iran and put them on their knees for something else than Allah, after that things just will fall into place for a long occupation like we have in Korea and Germany. All of the "I'll hold my breath and turn purple" talk will be ignored and changed by events that change the subject. Watch and learn how stupid cutting and running politics are in the upcoming months... and choose a side you want to win and the choices are America or fundamentalist Islam that want to destroy America.

i think that the sunnis and the shiites will continue to fight like they have for hundreds of years. but then i think they eventually will choose a leader. then they will fight again and the cycle will continue

IMO

There will be a general anarchy and fighting but then peace and order. There is a great chance the order that will control Iraq will not be US friendly, which is why we cannot leave.

Gibberish said:

IMO

There will be a general anarchy and fighting but then peace and order. There is a great chance the order that will control Iraq will not be US friendly, which is why we cannot leave.

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so we have to make sure that the new iraqi gov likes us or else we will have to keep our troops there and put them in harm's way?

nort_12345 said:

so we have to make sure that the new iraqi gov likes us or else we will have to keep our troops there and put them in harm's way?

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Thanks to the this messed up war I doubt they will never like us. The goal now, I think, is to at least get neutral. If we leave now, Iran or Syria will surely jump in and save Iraq from the chaos we put them in.

It's a delicate situation and I don't pretend knowing the right answer. There are pros and cons with leavening and staying. Leaving ends the war put will most likely hurt us in the long run because of of the terrorist breeding ground we have made Iraq into. If he stay there is a possibility we can fix our mistakes, but no definite view on how long that will take.

Hatuey said:

Well....assuming we'll get out of Iraq in the next say...5-15 years. What will happen after we leave?

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I say it depends on how and when we leave what will happen.

Fair bet that after some amount of civil strife, they will end up with a fairly radical, anti-American Govt that will be a lot worse for US interests than Hussein ever was. It will be like Iran in 1979. It will take decades for tensions between the countries will ease. But by then our nation will do some other dunderhead thing to **** things up again.

Let's break this down, teacher style...

Gibberish said:

If we leave now, Iran or Syria will surely jump in and save Iraq from the chaos we put them in.

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Sweet, Iran putting it right...to the Sunni's, which gives the Sauds a case of the azz, and then they jump in to back the Sunni's all while Turkey hopes the what for give fest stays away from the Kurds.

Gosh Gibb, there's this thing call "tomorrow's ramifications" you should consider before impulse posting.

Hence...

Iriemon said:

It will take decades for tensions between the countries will ease.

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CICoW.boy's "Stay the course" first post 9/11 speech.

Gibberish said:

Thanks to the this messed up war I doubt they will never like us. The goal now, I think, is to at least get neutral. If we leave now, Iran or Syria will surely jump in and save Iraq from the chaos we put them in.

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yeah, i think i heard a news program or something say that iran either was or would supply the shiites w/ weapons.

Gibberish said:

It's a delicate situation and I don't pretend knowing the right answer. There are pros and cons with leavening and staying. Leaving ends the war put will most likely hurt us in the long run because of of the terrorist breeding ground we have made Iraq into. If he stay there is a possibility we can fix our mistakes, but no definite view on how long that will take.

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i think that leaving iraq is the best answer. you're prob right about the terrorists that will be bred in iraq. but after we leave iraq, i think that we should try and solve the terrorists problem; and that doesn't mean to try and kill 'em all (that wasn't directed toward you, gibberish)

Re: Let's break this down, teacher style...

teacher said:

Sweet, Iran putting it right...to the Sunni's, which gives the Sauds a case of the azz, and then they jump in to back the Sunni's all while Turkey hopes the what for give fest stays away from the Kurds.

Gosh Gibb, there's this thing call "tomorrow's ramifications" you should consider before impulse posting.

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Do you deny that Iran would jump into Iraq to try and take control of the country if we left?

How would my post create any type of ramification?

I voted "It'll fall back into chaos," even though I believe a more accurate way to state it would be, "It'll remain in chaos."

It won't really seem like that to us, though. After all, the only deaths that get much media attention are American deaths. When Iraqis are over there killing each other, it'll be exactly as when innocents die in Sudan, or East Timor, or El Salvador. What's the difference?

No wait, scratch El Salvador from that list. We were responsible for that one. But we won't be responsible for innocents dying in Iraq (anymore) once we leave.

Gibberish said:

Do you deny that Iran would jump into Iraq to try and take control of the country if we left?

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Do you agree that Iran would not have jumped into Iraq to try and take control of the country if we had not jumped into Iraq to try and take control of the country first?

Re: Let's break this down, teacher style...

Gibberish said:

Do you deny that Iran would jump into Iraq to try and take control of the country if we left?

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No, I'm saying they pray 24/7/365 for us to leave so they can.

Then we'll see a real cluster fu*k.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, they're all friggin stupid Arabs man, they can't stand folks living they way they want, to be free, their women uncontrolled and running amok. Let alone voting (shudders).

We took out Saddam, this is our responsibility, for the long haul. The best thing is we are now on two borders of Iran. They have Uranium mines you know? Iran is coming, large, and there is a big difference between a jacket full of TNT and a stupid Arab strolling around in NYC pulling a nuke in his little red rider wagon.

But you all can't see that far ahead, can you? Shame.

How would my post create any type of ramification?

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That's my analysis from several of your posts. You know, you state a terrorist breeding ground we have created. Besides propping up the Shah, what has the US ever done to "breed" terrorists? We are not breeding them, we have given them a place to come to and DIE. And they do so by the tohousands. Islam, ignorance, poverty and Islamic religious leaders control are what breeds terrorists. It's been like that long before CICoW.boy was born.

But all of a sudden it's his fault, eh? (Not nessesarily talking to you there Gibb, can I call you Gibb)?

You know...

niftydrifty said:

"It'll remain in chaos."

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The only mistake (besides not having thrice the number of boots on the ground over there, Gunny taught me that one) we've made in this whole thing is underestimating just how stupid the Arabs are and just how big is thier juvinile need to force other Arabs (and the rest of the world) to follow their particular flavour of Islam.

[:teacher's journale: "This is day #2 of my rejoining the political side of this site and I might be able to let them get back to screaming

"Bush lied".
"Nuh-uh".
"Did to".

at each other sooner than I thought and get back to

1. The moving and stacking of blocks.
Duece. TT's.
Craps. General abuse
IV. The stalking of Tashah. (Ahhhhhhhhhhh).
E. Cartoons.

as this seems to be going well".]

teacher said:

The only mistake (besides not having thrice the number of boots on the ground over there, Gunny taught me that one) we've made in this whole thing is underestimating just how stupid the Arabs are and just how big is thier juvinile need to force other Arabs (and the rest of the world) to follow their particular flavour of Islam.

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The only mistake?

even if so, that's a pretty big freakin' mistake. And the consequences will be / have been disastrous.

Rule number one in ANY situation, is acknowledgement of the fact that human beings are tribal creatures. human beings have a need to belong to a tribe.

(hence your corny little belittlement of the "other tribe" below your post. and of the Arab tribe within your post.)

human beings have an instinctual need to hate (and kill) members of other tribes. what ought to grow out of said acknowledgement is a little assessment of of said situation. "am I being rational?" "are my actions arising out of an instinctual tribe mentality?" "am I assuming that shiites and sunnis are like presbyterians and baptists?"

it's likewise a mistake not to acknowledge that you and your fellow citizens belong to a tribe exhibiting the very same shortcomings you deride in others.

I find it incredibly ironic that Christ spoke out against the tribe mentality -- the tribal urge. and yet, (most) Christians think of themselves as a tribe and of others as recipients of that tribal urge.

if I ever have an audience with the current POTUS, this is what I would tell him.

I honestly don't know...................I think if we are successful in our mission there and the Iraqi army and police can handle the security there then things will be ok........You will probably be able to compare Baghdad with Washington D.C. or LA when it comes to the violence.......

If we cut and run prematurely like the left wants to do then there will be genicide........

Two that bring it in one day...

niftydrifty said:

The only mistake?

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You know nift-man, against my better judgement, I like you. Like I was telling Max Z today, not often people get by my bullshit and maybe see somewhere in there is a point or two.

Still, that's a pretty big freakin' mistake.

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Not if it works out in the end, and we are far from the end of this thing. Because...

And the consequences will be / have been disastrous.

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the consequences for doing nothing can be far worse. Think us in Iraq changes one iota what Iran thinks of us, or what they have always publically said they want to do to us and Israel?

Rule number one in ANY situation, is acknowledgement of the fact that human beings are tribal creatures. human beings have a need to belong to a tribe.

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True, and it's always been like that, until recently. The US HAS become more civilized than ony nation ever and is dragging many others kicking and screaming into enlightenment. I mean, civil rights in this country was not that long ago. Women voting? (Shudder). But now the stakes of the "in head in the sand mentality" are far more costly than ever. Like I say, gimme some enriched Uranium, some HE, the tools in my truck, a Home Depot card and internet access, and I can build a Nuke. Can the stupid Arabs be far behind me?

(hence your corny little belittlement of the "other tribe" below your post. and of the Arab tribe within your post.)

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You don't seem as stupid as Billo looks, so lemme clue you in. Go take a look at some of my threads and check views. I rule. What amazes me is that my bullshit sells so well, but I'll take it. The way I look at it is it don't matter why they read me, it's the reading that matters, then what I have to say is read. Corny? Maybe, but you read it too, eh?

The moral? Your corny little belittlement of me needs some thinking over by you.

human beings have an instinctual need to hate (and kill) members of other tribes. what ought to grow out of said acknowledgement is a little assessment of of said situation. "am I being rational?" "are my actions arising out of an instinctual tribe mentality?" "am I assuming that shiites and sunnis are like presbyterians and baptists?"

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Yea yea yea. If this thing don't work, then nothing has changed. If it works, welcome Earth to the beginning of freedom for ALL.

it's likewise a mistake not to acknowledge that you and your fellow citizens belong to a tribe exhibiting the very same shortcomings you deride in others.

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That's okay, you know me not. The shortcomings I deride? Hey, if that's how you look at it, fine. Women in Iraq and Afgahnistan now vote. That's a bad thing? Democracy has a chance in places where half the population (women) lived as slaves. That's a bad thing? See nifty, I feel there is such a thing as right and wrong. Some beg to differ, but the ones being wronged sure don't. With great power comes great responsiblilty. The USA has great power. To do nothing and stand idlely by while others suffer from despots and religious leaders is cowardly and immoral in my view. It is our moral obligation to step up to the plate for our fellow man, now matter how fond they are of buggering Camels. Now you can differ from me in this, and such is your right, but this nation votes, and the man we put in power, while not the bightest of guys, I feel is moral in this and still in charge.

I find it incredibly ironic that Christ spoke out against the tribe mentality -- the tribal urge. and yet, (most) Christians think of themselves as a tribe and of others as recipients of that tribal urge.

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Good is good, evil is evil. Again, ask those who are on the receiving end of evil such as you, apperently, can't comprehend. I think they see it differently.

if I ever have an audience with the current POTUS, this is what I would tell him.

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I'd tell him "what the fu*k is with this 20k surge? Surge 200k and be done with it. Then send them to Somalia, then The Sudan, then Rawanda..."

one day it will all be over and the recipiants a generation or two down the road will thank us.

Ever seen my blow job anology of how the stupid Arabs treat their women?

No one has an answer to that.

Navy Pride said:

I honestly don't know...................I think if we are successful in our mission there and the Iraqi army and police can handle the security there then things will be ok........You will probably be able to compare Baghdad with Washington D.C. or LA when it comes to the violence.......

If we cut and run prematurely like the left wants to do then there will be genicide........

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When will it not be premature to "cut and run" in your view?

Iriemon said:

When will it not be premature to "cut and run" in your view?

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It would be premature to cut and run before the Iraqi army and police can handle the security in Iraq........

Navy Pride said:

It would be premature to cut and run before the Iraqi army and police can handle the security in Iraq........

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Great. So how's it going with those 200,000 police and soldiers we've already trained?