What To Do About Greece ??

[SocialDemocrat]

I think that political unification of Europe was a fine idea for the problems of the 20th century. It does not address the most existential of those of the 21st. But it is worse. The political and financial capital spent, dissipated and squandered is lost the solution of those problems. It goes further. And frankly, we cannot afford that luxury.

The Greek question doesn't make political unification impossible. It just makes it less likely that Greece will be involved in said unification.

 

[joG]

The Greek question doesn't make political unification impossible. It just makes it less likely that Greece will be involved in said unification.

Actually the problem of the euro is not a Greek one. It is more general. By removing the flexibility of the very different economies that floating rates and corresponding interest rates that are responsive to the regional business cycle these systems become subsystems lacking their capability of quickly reacting to change. Economics requires this inflexibility be replaced and compensated by other flexibilities and compensation. Mainly this means labor must move quickly and fiscal policy must focus money from areas of high economic activity to those lagging. These measures are difficult in Europe. People have different educational systems and diploma, speak different languages, have different bureaucratic requirements to work etc and the fiscal compensation is against the popular will and illegal in being contra constitutional in most countries and incompatible with EU treaties.

This does not mean the transition is impossible. It does mean that there is a huge potential for acrimony and division that is already visible in the new strength of anti EU parties and popular movements. This is in spite of amount of political capital the pro Eu people have expended and the continuous propaganda from public media.
As the deeper union does not really solve any of the existential problems facing us now, the waste of resources seems more stupidity and/or self interest that does more damage than good.

 

[wist43]

The world-wide system is build upon a false premise of debt - a premise that is designed to create crisis and fail.

Crisis creates opportunity, and those that are pulling the strings are brilliantly creating the conditions in which the world will yield to their designs. Out of the failure of the present system and currencies, the international banking elite will offer up our "salvation" and the chains that come with it.

Americas fate was sealed when we passed the Federal Reserve Act - and with that, the worlds fate was sealed. Nixon takes us off the gold standard, and it is debt, debt, and more debt.

The Greek people are only doing what human nature dictates - take everything given to you, demand more, and blame everyone else when the whole thing blows up. Greece is a microcosm of what is to come.

 

[SocialDemocrat]

Actually the problem of the euro is not a Greek one. It is more general. By removing the flexibility of the very different economies that floating rates and corresponding interest rates that are responsive to the regional business cycle these systems become subsystems lacking their capability of quickly reacting to change. Economics requires this inflexibility be replaced and compensated by other flexibilities and compensation. Mainly this means labor must move quickly and fiscal policy must focus money from areas of high economic activity to those lagging. These measures are difficult in Europe. People have different educational systems and diploma, speak different languages, have different bureaucratic requirements to work etc and the fiscal compensation is against the popular will and illegal in being contra constitutional in most countries and incompatible with EU treaties.

Which is why it was quite foolish of the EU to focus on first integrating economies. Political integration of the continent into one federal state should have preceded a currency union.

This does not mean the transition is impossible. It does mean that there is a huge potential for acrimony and division that is already visible in the new strength of anti EU parties and popular movements. This is in spite of amount of political capital the pro Eu people have expended and the continuous propaganda from public media.
As the deeper union does not really solve any of the existential problems facing us now, the waste of resources seems more stupidity and/or self interest that does more damage than good.

I would think that a transition away from the EU and abolition of the currency union would be a similarly large mess that doesn't seem like it's worth pursuing if it's not even the ideal solution.

 

[joG]

Which is why it was quite foolish of the EU to focus on first integrating economies. Political integration of the continent into one federal state should have preceded a currency union.



I would think that a transition away from the EU and abolition of the currency union would be a similarly large mess that doesn't seem like it's worth pursuing if it's not even the ideal solution.

I think we can agree on the damage having been large and is no longer avoidable. It is only a question of who is seen to foot the bill and second of who actually does.

What is interesting is that there is a strong force acting to keep this process opaque and as intransparent as possible. Personally, while seeing the advantages of the approach, I think the damage done by this method is much larger in a soft way. It destroys legitimacy. This is slow and at first imperceptible, but gains strength and weight continously and then with leaps and bounds. This development is well progressed in Europe. It is in this context, I think it would be well advised to consolidate the system and do, what the population can really follow. It might think phrases like "The euro profits all!" or "The EU has guaranteed peace since ww2!" wonderful to rally to. But the realities required are quite another thing.

 

[Northern Light]

Now its the " system " thats broken ? And not Greece's corrupt Government ?

There's corruption from top to bottom in this system. The banks are at the top of it. Have you not been following the inquiries in the United States recently? The banks are actually trying to claim that they did nothing wrong and that they should be entitled to more government handouts down the road.

Greece's government was enabled by a fiscal system that permits and supports insolvency. The whole basis of this system is debt. Non-existent money is loaned out and real money is expected to be paid back, with interest.

They've been misrepresenting their debt while distributing billions in worthless bonds throughout European banks for years with NO intention of ever paying off their debt.

Like every country is doing, including the U.S.? China is doing it bigtime... their accounting system is like a black box and the yuan is gamed. Yet no one is complaining about that because we all get cheap Chinese goods as a result, and cheaper manufacturing costs. In fact, the end of the middle class in the U.S. and the destruction of our manufacturing sector is all owed in thanks to a country that cooks its books.

Tell me, are we planning to pay back all those trillions of dollars any time soon? Like I said, this system is based on debt and usury. If you're not borrowing, you're not participating. People with no credit are worse off than people with huge debt who meet their interest payments. The former is screwed and the latter can acquire capital.

Bankruptcy law essentially allows people to do what Greece did. There's nothing stopping most people from borrowing to the nth degree - because the banks continue to give out insolvent loans - and then declare bankruptcy when you can't pay it off. I don't know what U.S. law is like but in Canada you just pay a monthly fee to your bankruptcy agent, and then after 6 years your slate is clean and you can start borrowing again. Someone I met a year ago said she was even being sent new credit cards after her second year in bankruptcy. These companies love to loan to people who can never fully pay back, because then the market can trade on debt bonds.

We are trading in negative money. At least Greece is honest about it.

 

[DA60]

What to do about Greece?

Same thing the West has done since 9/11 with troubled countries.

Invade them, run them horribly for a while which leads to a civil war, withdrawal with their tails between their legs, the country becomes a complete mess and a new home for terrorist/extremist groups.

And if Neocons are offended by that - as Mr. Buirns says - Exxxxxxcellent.


Seriously, if I was King of Greece, I would leave the EU, default and balance the budget. Sure, no one would lend to Greece for a while - but with Greece's track record, that is a good thing PLUS it will force them to live within their means.

As for her creditors? Tough. If they were dumb enough to lend to someone with as much debt as Greece, it's their own fault if Greece turns around and forfeits. No one forced them to make those loans..and now they have to live with the consequences.

 

[MTAtech]

Actually the problem of the euro is not a Greek one. It is more general. By removing the flexibility of the very different economies that floating rates and corresponding interest rates that are responsive to the regional business cycle these systems become subsystems lacking their capability of quickly reacting to change. Economics requires this inflexibility be replaced and compensated by other flexibilities and compensation. Mainly this means labor must move quickly and fiscal policy must focus money from areas of high economic activity to those lagging. These measures are difficult in Europe. People have different educational systems and diploma, speak different languages, have different bureaucratic requirements to work etc and the fiscal compensation is against the popular will and illegal in being contra constitutional in most countries and incompatible with EU treaties.

This does not mean the transition is impossible. It does mean that there is a huge potential for acrimony and division that is already visible in the new strength of anti EU parties and popular movements. This is in spite of amount of political capital the pro Eu people have expended and the continuous propaganda from public media.
As the deeper union does not really solve any of the existential problems facing us now, the waste of resources seems more stupidity and/or self interest that does more damage than good.

In addition, by using a common currency, a country in depression won't have a currency devaluation, which makes their products and services more competitive, which gets them out of depression.

 

[Critter7r]

TL;DR

The answer is 'nothing'. We do nothing about Greece.

We let them fix their own economy and if they request our help, we consider it at that time.

 

[Fenton]

There's corruption from top to bottom in this system. The banks are at the top of it. Have you not been following the inquiries in the United States recently? The banks are actually trying to claim that they did nothing wrong and that they should be entitled to more government handouts down the road.

Greece's government was enabled by a fiscal system that permits and supports insolvency. The whole basis of this system is debt. Non-existent money is loaned out and real money is expected to be paid back, with interest.



Like every country is doing, including the U.S.? China is doing it bigtime... their accounting system is like a black box and the yuan is gamed. Yet no one is complaining about that because we all get cheap Chinese goods as a result, and cheaper manufacturing costs. In fact, the end of the middle class in the U.S. and the destruction of our manufacturing sector is all owed in thanks to a country that cooks its books.

Tell me, are we planning to pay back all those trillions of dollars any time soon? Like I said, this system is based on debt and usury. If you're not borrowing, you're not participating. People with no credit are worse off than people with huge debt who meet their interest payments. The former is screwed and the latter can acquire capital.

Bankruptcy law essentially allows people to do what Greece did. There's nothing stopping most people from borrowing to the nth degree - because the banks continue to give out insolvent loans - and then declare bankruptcy when you can't pay it off. I don't know what U.S. law is like but in Canada you just pay a monthly fee to your bankruptcy agent, and then after 6 years your slate is clean and you can start borrowing again. Someone I met a year ago said she was even being sent new credit cards after her second year in bankruptcy. These companies love to loan to people who can never fully pay back, because then the market can trade on debt bonds.

We are trading in negative money. At least Greece is honest about it.

The Banks ? The Banks were not the one's who entered into the European Union under false pretenses and then continued to borrow and spend until they were kicked out of the bond markets.

No that was Greece, not the Banks. The Banks are the one's having to write off Billions in losses.

You can attempt to justify this all you want but it doesnt change the facts that Greece got itself into this mess via unsustainable spending.

 

[Northern Light]

The Banks ? The Banks were not the one's who entered into the European Union under false pretenses and then continued to borrow and spend until they were kicked out of the bond markets.

No that was Greece, not the Banks. The Banks are the one's having to write off Billions in losses.

You can attempt to justify this all you want but it doesnt change the facts that Greece got itself into this mess via unsustainable spending.

I'm not trying to justify anything. You blame Greece for falsifying information, which is a problem to be sure, but you don't think the banks are at all responsible for not doing a thorough credit check? How does an entire country dupe the system if the system is made to be duped by design?

Sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Fenton]

I'm not trying to justify anything. You blame Greece for falsifying information, which is a problem to be sure, but you don't think the banks are at all responsible for not doing a thorough credit check? How does an entire country dupe the system if the system is made to be duped by design?

Sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

If it was a average Joe walking into to a Bank and the Bank didn't do their due diligence, then yea, its the Banks fault also.

But Greece wasn't a average Joe, it was a Nation and Nations borrow by selling bonds.

Greece was also a member EU Nation and signed a Treaty ( Maastricht Treaty ) that gave strict limits on deficit spending.

Greece entered into the Union under false pretenses and then violated the limitations spelled out in that Treaty.

For nearly 2 decades they misrepresented their position on debt and revenue so they could borrow to fund unsustainable public sector give aways

Thats not Germany's fault.

 

[mmi]

Ah, another Fenton masterpiece. And I see he even got in his lies about "Redlining? It never existed!!"

If democratic socialism always fails, what the heck is going on in places like Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands?

Years of excessive tax evasion/avoidance are of course a BIG part of the problem.

Germany benefits greatly from the eurozone. It has lots of capital, a highly skilled labor force, a strong industrial base, and even a central location. Merkel wants stability. Members of her party can and will complain, but she will not allow a dissolution. A bumpy series of compromises will continue to be achieved.

 

[Fenton]

Ah, another Fenton masterpiece. And I see he even got in his lies about "Redlining? It never existed!!"

If democratic socialism always fails, what the heck is going on in places like Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands?

Years of excessive tax evasion/avoidance are of course a BIG part of the problem.

Germany benefits greatly from the eurozone. It has lots of capital, a highly skilled labor force, a strong industrial base, and even a central location. Merkel wants stability. Members of her party can and will complain, but she will not allow a dissolution. A bumpy series of compromises will continue to be achieved.

The Danes are moving Right if you haven't noticed and no, Greece's problem wasn't " tax evasion ".

Lol

When your public sector employs 1/4 of your Nations population while offering up unsustainable benefits and give aways, your problem is SPENDING.

The tax rate required to pay for Greece's bloated public sector would have choked the life out of their economy thus forcing them to....borrow anyway.

If Greece's Government KNEW there was a problem with collecting revenue then why on earth would they continue spending and borrowing ?

Why not crack down on tax evaders ? Greece had 20 years of spending beyond their means to deal with people that refused to pay their taxes.

No, the " tax evasion " narrative is just a attempt to divert attention away from what really happened.

 

[mmi]

The Danes are moving Right

Yeah, toward the Right, from socialism to liberalism. The social welfare system that helps ensure a decent life for Danes will remain in place.



>>no, Greece's problem wasn't "tax evasion".

As usual, as if you know even the first thing about whatever yer currently peddling crap about. I have to say it's very easy to find information that refutes yer bogus claims. Just C & P yer baseless nonsense into Google and the evidence disproving yer vague sputterings is right there.

>>When your public sector employs 1/4 of your Nations population

In 2011, Germany and France had a higher percentage of public-sector employees. The public sector in Greece has been shrinking very significantly in recent years.

The number of public sector employees in Greece was reduced by 267,095 during the period 2009-2013. In 2009, there were 952,625 public employees but in 2013 their number fell to 675,530. According to Greek news, a percentage of them retired, but the vast majority were working on contracts that were not renewed. — "Greek Public Sector Employees Reduced by 267.095," GreekReporter.com, Jul 21, 2014​

>>while offering up unsustainable benefits and give aways, your problem is SPENDING.

[C]ompared to other European countries, its social expenditure-to-GDP level does not even make in the top ten list. France, Finland, and Belgium spend the highest social expenditure-to-GDP levels, according to the OECD, while even Germany, which has been the foremost advocate of austerity, had a higher social expenditure-to-GDP level than Greece in 2014, as well as in 2009. Furthermore, many of these high social expenditure countries, such as Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, have significantly lower debt-to-GDP rates than the United States.

The true problem with Greece is as much cultural as it is economic, and the problem of corruption runs deep. Greece has a very long history of corruption and tax evasion, going back to its four century rule under the Ottoman Empire.

[A]bout one-third of Greeks are self-employed, which is about twice the European average, and these individuals, usually high income workers, significantly underreport their income. In five Greek sectors, including doctors & medicine, accounting & financial services, and lodging & restaurants, data shows that people in these sectors on average report paying more on debt repayments each month than what they actually earn — a clear sign of unreported income.

[A]nother major factor is the single currency of the eurozone, which, as the euro crisis has clearly shown us, empowers certain countries, while holding others captive. In the United States, when a recession comes, our government and central bank can create more money through expansionary policies such as lowering interest rates. In the Eurozone, countries like Greece are subjected to the policies of the European Central Bank, and therefore Greece cannot print itself out of trouble. — "Is Greece a Case of Failed Socialism?," CounterPunch.org, June 19, 2015​

>>The tax rate required to pay for Greece's bloated public sector would have choked the life out of their economy thus forcing them to....borrow anyway.

You of course offer NOTHING to back that up.

>>If Greece's Government KNEW there was a problem with collecting revenue then why on earth would they continue spending and borrowing?

The same reason the Germans kept lending to them, I suppose: hoping things would work out.

>>Why not crack down on tax evaders? Greece had 20 years of spending beyond their means to deal with people that refused to pay their taxes.

Pervasive and entrenched cultural and historical factors that yer simple-minded approach doesn't account for. Maybe we should send Lois Lerner over there.

>>No, the " tax evasion " narrative is just a attempt to divert attention away from what really happened.

You think Greece is a movie starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John.

 

[mmi]

Here's the view of a Conservative British MP.

[T]he creditors need to grasp that they were foolish lenders, who lent too much on terms that did not allow Greece to repay. They needed to sort out a better way with Greece years ago. I remember writing to urge the IMF not to lend a cent to Greece, as it was obvious we needed changes of policy first. It went ahead, so now it has to recognise that some of the blame and some of the pain will rest with it. Instead of riding the moral high horse, it needs to walk in penance before European taxpayers and apologise for its folly.

With the UK’s banking crisis, people got mad with the banks for lending too much, rather than getting mad with the people and companies who could not pay the interest on their debts. The UK banks were brought down by bad regulation and some bad bankers, but only because many borrowers were unable or unwilling to meet their loan conditions. For reasons similar to here, Greek voters are more likely to get mad with the IMF and EU than they are with themselves for borrowing too much. — "The Greek people voted against austerity – why is the EU ignoring this?," Guardian, Jun 19, 2015​

 

[Fenton]

Here's the view of a Conservative British MP.

[T]he creditors need to grasp that they were foolish lenders, who lent too much on terms that did not allow Greece to repay. They needed to sort out a better way with Greece years ago. I remember writing to urge the IMF not to lend a cent to Greece, as it was obvious we needed changes of policy first. It went ahead, so now it has to recognise that some of the blame and some of the pain will rest with it. Instead of riding the moral high horse, it needs to walk in penance before European taxpayers and apologise for its folly.

With the UK’s banking crisis, people got mad with the banks for lending too much, rather than getting mad with the people and companies who could not pay the interest on their debts. The UK banks were brought down by bad regulation and some bad bankers, but only because many borrowers were unable or unwilling to meet their loan conditions. For reasons similar to here, Greek voters are more likely to get mad with the IMF and EU than they are with themselves for borrowing too much. — "The Greek people voted against austerity – why is the EU ignoring this?," Guardian, Jun 19, 2015​

LOL !!

And who's going to pay for it ?

 

[Fenton]

>>When your public sector employs 1/4 of your Nations population

In 2011, Germany and France had a higher percentage of public-sector employees. The public sector in Greece has been shrinking very significantly in recent years.

The number of public sector employees in Greece was reduced by 267,095 during the period 2009-2013. In 2009, there were 952,625 public employees but in 2013 their number fell to 675,530. According to Greek news, a percentage of them retired, but the vast majority were working on contracts that were not renewed. — "Greek Public Sector Employees Reduced by 267.095," GreekReporter.com, Jul 21, 2014​

>>while offering up unsustainable benefits and give aways, your problem is SPENDING.

[C]ompared to other European countries, its social expenditure-to-GDP level does not even make in the top ten list. France, Finland, and Belgium spend the highest social expenditure-to-GDP levels, according to the OECD, while even Germany, which has been the foremost advocate of austerity, had a higher social expenditure-to-GDP level than Greece in 2014, as well as in 2009. Furthermore, many of these high social expenditure countries, such as Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, have significantly lower debt-to-GDP rates than the United States.

The true problem with Greece is as much cultural as it is economic, and the problem of corruption runs deep. Greece has a very long history of corruption and tax evasion, going back to its four century rule under the Ottoman Empire.

[A]bout one-third of Greeks are self-employed, which is about twice the European average, and these individuals, usually high income workers, significantly underreport their income. In five Greek sectors, including doctors & medicine, accounting & financial services, and lodging & restaurants, data shows that people in these sectors on average report paying more on debt repayments each month than what they actually earn — a clear sign of unreported income.

[A]nother major factor is the single currency of the eurozone, which, as the euro crisis has clearly shown us, empowers certain countries, while holding others captive. In the United States, when a recession comes, our government and central bank can create more money through expansionary policies such as lowering interest rates. In the Eurozone, countries like Greece are subjected to the policies of the European Central Bank, and therefore Greece cannot print itself out of trouble. — "Is Greece a Case of Failed Socialism?," CounterPunch.org, June 19, 2015​

>>The tax rate required to pay for Greece's bloated public sector would have choked the life out of their economy thus forcing them to....borrow anyway.

You of course offer NOTHING to back that up.

>>If Greece's Government KNEW there was a problem with collecting revenue then why on earth would they continue spending and borrowing?

The same reason the Germans kept lending to them, I suppose: hoping things would work out.

>>Why not crack down on tax evaders? Greece had 20 years of spending beyond their means to deal with people that refused to pay their taxes.

Pervasive and entrenched cultural and historical factors that yer simple-minded approach doesn't account for. Maybe we should send Lois Lerner over there.

>>No, the " tax evasion " narrative is just a attempt to divert attention away from what really happened.

You think Greece is a movie starring John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John.

Lol

" pervasive historical reasons " ?

You just make **** up and expect to be taken seriously.....Hilarious.

Was it because of " pervasive cultural and historical " reasons that Greece entered into the Union under false pretenses ?

Was it because of " pervasive cultural and historical " reasons that they continued to lie for years after entering into the Union ?

And speaking of simple minded, didn't you fall for the whole " Nazi war crimes " fines unpaid extortion bit ?

 

[mmi]

"pervasive historical reasons"?

I didn't use that phrase. I'm not that bad a writer.

>>You just make **** up and expect to be taken seriously.....Hilarious.

I know you make stuff up, but I can't say that you expect to be taken seriously. I suppose you don't care. If you did, I figure you wouldn't post so much inane drivel.

>>Was it because of "pervasive cultural and historical" reasons that Greece entered into the Union under false pretenses?

Good question. I'd say mostly yes.

>>Was it because of "pervasive cultural and historical" reasons that they continued to lie for years after entering into the Union?

Ditto. Very good, Fenton. You may be catching on here.

>>And speaking of simple minded, didn't you fall for the whole "Nazi war crimes" fines unpaid extortion bit?

Nope, as I have explained to you repeatedly. Clean some of the cow**** out of yer skull to allow room for this to sink in: It wasn't a war crime. It was extortion (and so, yes, criminal) by the Nazi government perpetrated on Greece. The Nazis themselves acknowledged the debt and made payments during the war. I will keep on pointing this out every time I find you posting yer lie about how it's some trumped-up war crime.

The populations of Eastern Europe were brutalized to an unimaginable degree by Hitler and his cronies. And yet you have the shameless audacity to repeat over and over a stupid lie about this debt being somehow a "bit," as you called it. A scam being used to shirk responsibility. Such behaviour can only be associated with a despicable SOB.

 

[Logicman]

Oh I understand the topic. It's people on the left who don't understand the Greek debt crisis.

They like to pretend it's not there, or that it was made worse by " austerity ", or like you, they like to post irreverent statistics . These are people that are more loyal to a ideology than they are the truth.

Exactly.

Watching the liberal Greeks trying to worm their way out of paying the piper for their fiscal irresponsibility is like watching a fish flopping on the deck.

 

[Fenton]

Lol !!

Greece admits deficit figures were fudged to secure euro entry - Europe - World - The Independent


Make excuses all you want, Greece has been scamming Europe and it's creditors ever since it lied its way into the EU. You blame it on " cultural and historical ", reasons ? I call it what it is. Lies.

It's just ONE of the advantages of being a Conservative. I don't have to twist and contort reality or make excuses for the failures of my ideology.

Nope, as I have explained to you repeatedly. Clean some of the cow**** out of yer skull to allow room for this to sink in: It wasn't a war crime. It was extortion (and so, yes, criminal) by the Nazi government perpetrated on Greece. The Nazis themselves acknowledged the debt and made payments during the war. I will keep on pointing this out every time I find you posting yer lie about how it's some trumped-up war crime.

The populations of Eastern Europe were brutalized to an unimaginable degree by Hitler and his cronies. And yet you have the shameless audacity to repeat over and over a stupid lie about this debt being somehow a "bit," as you called it. A scam being used to shirk responsibility. Such behaviour can only be associated with a despicable SOB.

German anger over Greek demand for war reparations | World news | The Guardian

" The demands stem from a Greek finance ministry report published in December 2014 which calculated on the basis of expert assessment that Germany “owed” Greece €9.2bn for the first world war, €322bn for the second world war and €10bn for money Greece was forced to lend the Nazi regime in 1942. "


The Greek Finance Ministry issued a report ???!!! That says Germany owes them 300 Billion dollars ??? LOL !! :lamo :lamo :lamo

Only YOU would lend credibility to such a ridiculous and overtly subjective report. A report that just so happens to bail out a Government that lied its way into insolvency and unapologetically distributed Billions of worthless Bonds throughout European Banks.

I mean talk about despicable behavior.

 

[Ryan5]

The Greeks..Ah yes..The Greeks:


-Economically backwards country that never modernized

-Citizenry that don't fully believe in paying taxes to a central government and never historically have done so

-Not actually a big economy to begin with. Many small US cities have larger economies than all of Greece even before the bad times

-Greece simply isn't a modern country in any definable way (and yes, this was known by all but STILL Greeks are ultimately to blame for this, time to grow up and join the world)

 

[mmi]

Greece admits deficit figures were fudged to secure euro entry - Europe - World - The Independent

Some things in that 2004 article you of course don't want to mention:

The confusion centres on what Mr Alogoskoufis alleges was the systematic misreporting of defence spending. Athens spread the financial burden of a multibillion-euro jet fighter contract across separate budgets.​

Is this an example of the problem you've been describing?

bloated public sector, unsustainable public sector give aways, ridiculous and unsustainable benefits, large Governmental bureaucracies, a failed Socialist model via massive and unsustainable public sector spending

Sounds to me more like stupid militaristic nationalism. Gotta be ready for a war with those horrible Turks. Peace through strength.

It also talks about "the orgy of spending on this summer's Olympics."

The total cost for the August Olympiad has been put at €9bn, (£6.3bn) nine times the amount spent by previous hosts Sydney.​

More Texass-style national pride.

The center-right (i.e., conservative) New Democracy party came to power in 2004. What were their policies? My favourites were statistical — getting a big drop in the unemployment rate … by changing the way it's calculated, and lobbying for a large upward revision in the estimate of GDP … by including prostitution and money laundering. The rest is what you'd expect — elimination of the estate tax on wealthy households, cutting corporate taxes, and a lot of privatization of industry (something I generally support). These don't seem to have solved the problem.

>>Greece has been scamming Europe and it's creditors ever since it lied its way into the EU.

Did any other countries lie about deficits to the EU examiners? Looks like they just didn't need to. From that Independent article:

Athens is not alone in breaking the 3 per cent rule and persistent offenders France and Germany have escaped without suffering penalties.​

>>It's just ONE of the advantages of being a Conservative. I don't have to twist and contort reality or make excuses for the failures of my ideology.

Yer not a conservative. Yer a lying, reactionary propagandist. All you do is "twist and contort reality or make excuses for the failures of [your] ideology."

>>>>The Greek Finance Ministry issued a report ???!!! That says Germany owes them 300 Billion dollars ??? LOL !!

You quoted the Guardian article yerself:

The demands stem from a Greek finance ministry report published in December 2014 which calculated on the basis of expert assessment that Germany 'owed' Greece €9.2bn for the first world war, €322bn for the second world war and €10bn for money Greece was forced to lend the Nazi regime in 1942.​

Notice how the amounts are separated. The first two are for reparations. The third is for "money Greece was forced to lend the Nazi regime in 1942." For about the fifth time, not a war crime or war reparations. A contractual obligation, a debt, one that the Nazis themselves started paying back during the war.

>>Only YOU would lend credibility to such a ridiculous and overtly subjective report.

Only YOU would be unable to see the difference between reparations and loan repayments. It may be that yer simply unwilling to do it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out yer just too freakin' stupid.

You said this earlier in the thread: "It's called a loan and Greece is embarrassing itself and it's citizens by refusing to abide by it's contractual obligations." Is Berlin embarrassing its citizens? You condemn the Greeks because you want to rag on socialism, something else you don't know anything about. If dumping on Germany served yer ideological purposes, you'd do that too.

>>I mean talk about despicable behavior.

Yer continuing subterfuge, pretending that repayment of the forced loans is called for as redress for a war crime, when in the larger picture Greece and other Eastern Europe nations were subjected to unspeakably cruel treatment by the Nazis, deserves, imo, to be labelled as despicable. Maybe you think it's unfortunate that yer fellow Rightists, the Nazi gangster mass-murderers, lost the war. They woulda kept those irresponsible Greeks in line!

 

[Van Basten]

Let the Greeks be free of international capitalism

I think they've suffered enough.

 

[Chagos]

Amazing how some of these threads are started by those most ignorant on the topic.

And, as if that weren't comical enough, then pursued with endless monologue rants to demonstrate the geographical, historical, economical and political ignorance.

The main motivation consisting, of course, of creating yet another platform for one's own ideological Dem-GOP surrogate conflict theatre, something that has absolutely no place in a subject of this complexity.

Why can't some people keep their home politics precisely there?



P.S. Makes for some noteworthy replies though, no thanks to the OP.