what is reality ?

[BmanMcfly]

Reality is basically what you perceive to be true, plus what can be scientifically proven to be true. My beliefs are a part of my own personal reality, and not necessarily that of others, but there are provable facts which are undeniable to the person with a rational mind.

Yes, and since this is effectively a true statement for all, that sounds like reality is at its core a subjective reality, with objective consistency.

 

[BmanMcfly]

AH yes the infamous double slit experiments. Though those experiments do not in any way dispute that matter exists. In fact your ignorant misunderstandings missed the fact that quantum mechanics is actually the way we might be able to get closer to understanding how nature works on the smallest scales. Nature being that materialistic perception of reality that you so naively think is a failure.

Yes, of course there is a material reality... But what the double slit experiment shows is that particles (in that experiment photons) are also waves of potential particles depending on whether or not they are observed.

So, while there is an objective reality, ultimately it's that simple material reality that is the illusion, but the universe is more like a subjective experience.

You are correct though that quantum theory has generated some of the most accurate predictions in the history of any science known... But a strictly materialistic universe is unsupportable without getting into multiple theoretical universes, or the universe splitting with every observation, really any explanation to avoid addressing the issues of HOW observation collapses the waveform into actual particles.

 

[RGacky3]

Sound waves are not just waves. Sound waves are called sound waves whether or not they can be heard.

And I have no clue why you are talking about creatures seeing waves and all that nonsense about waves.

I'm talkinga bout the difference between perception and reality ... Sound doesn't describe anything in reality, it describes how we perceive certain waves.

 

[RGacky3]

You are confusing the act of imagination with the actual imagination.

Example: I imagine that you are twenty meters tall and neon orange.

Obviously you are not that tall or neon orange, me imagining that you were those things was real but the realness stopped at the reality that you are not how I imagined you.

But sure dispute the obvious if you want, just dont imagine that I will debate nonsense with you in this reality.

Obviously you're not really that tall and noen orange, but it's a real imagination, in otherwords the imagination I had was real, it was just an imagination.

If I have a sensation of pain, that sensation is real, even nothing hit me and it was just a neural misshap.

 

[Medusa]

AH yes the infamous double slit experiments. Though those experiments do not in any way dispute that matter exists. In fact your ignorant misunderstandings missed the fact that quantum mechanics is actually the way we might be able to get closer to understanding how nature works on the smallest scales. Nature being that materialistic perception of reality that you so naively think is a failure.

All that you did was show that you dont really understand what you are copying and pasting.

l am not copying ,l am expresing it in my own words

l already knew you would insult me when l tried to explain it.

but get over it

quantum physics turns you upside down

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

I'm talkinga bout the difference between perception and reality ... Sound doesn't describe anything in reality, it describes how we perceive certain waves.

Sound waves exist whether humans are around or not. And they are called sound waves whether you are capable of hearing sound waves or are deaf.

And yes you are talking about the difference between perception and reality, but I am asserting that reality isnt dependent on subjective animal perceptions. Again reality is the state of being real. Sound waves are real. Or are you trying to claim that sound waves are not real that it is only our perception that they are real? I seriously hope not.

 

[RGacky3]

Sound waves exist whether humans are around or not. And they are called sound waves whether you are capable of hearing sound waves or are deaf.

And yes you are talking about the difference between perception and reality, but I am asserting that reality isnt dependent on subjective animal perceptions. Again reality is the state of being real. Sound waves are real. Or are you trying to claim that sound waves are not real that it is only our perception that they are real? I seriously hope not.

I'm claiming that without humans there would be no distinction between sound waves and other types of waves .... it's just waves .... what make sthem sound waves is that what we call sound waves exist in a condition to where we can sense them through hearing ... i.e. what makes the SOUND waves as distinct fomr other types of waves is our perception, or ability to percieve them as sound.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Yes, of course there is a material reality... But what the double slit experiment shows is that particles (in that experiment photons) are also waves of potential particles depending on whether or not they are observed.

So, while there is an objective reality, ultimately it's that simple material reality that is the illusion, but the universe is more like a subjective experience.

You are correct though that quantum theory has generated some of the most accurate predictions in the history of any science known... But a strictly materialistic universe is unsupportable without getting into multiple theoretical universes, or the universe splitting with every observation, really any explanation to avoid addressing the issues of HOW observation collapses the waveform into actual particles.

Im not here to debate your belief system.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Sound waves exist whether humans are around or not. And they are called sound waves whether you are capable of hearing sound waves or are deaf.

And yes you are talking about the difference between perception and reality, but I am asserting that reality isnt dependent on subjective animal perceptions. Again reality is the state of being real. Sound waves are real. Or are you trying to claim that sound waves are not real that it is only our perception that they are real? I seriously hope not.

Well, that's what quantum physics is showing...

And it's not quite like it is real or is not real; the moon exists whether or not it's being observed, but when it's not being observed it exists in a state where it's a waveform potential of all the places that it could be, so, since the probability wave does not vary quickly, between observations it moves an expected amount; but there's a non-zero chance that when you look up the moon will be somewhere other than where it's expected, even I that probability is 1x10^-99:1 against it being anywhere other than the place we expect.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Im not here to debate your belief system.

Then, what is your experimental verification for this materialist universe??

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

l am not copying ,l am expresing it in my own words

l already knew you would insult me when l tried to explain it.

but get over it

quantum physics turns you upside down

Hmmm so you are unable to refute the fact that Quantum Mechanics doesnt explain away a materialistic world?

Quantum weirdness while it may be extremely strange to us large collections of tiny pieces does not in any way make matter not matter. The reality is that what is real is the truth of reality.

The observer effect that Quantum New Agers go on about just ignores (or they are unaware) that it doesn't refer to a conscious observer. And there are a lot of sites online that are Quantum New Ager sites. A good metric to tell the difference between the good sites and the bad ones is to notice whether there is any quantization in their explanations. Most just use the word quantum because they think that it explains everything because most people cant grasp quantum mechanics at all.

ANd dont be insulted that you and I have a meager understanding of a extremely complicated subject. Trust me when i say that we are all ignorant when it comes to understanding things on the quantum level. But as as we understand any subject better the weirdness part starts to go away when we are better able to explain it.

Dont let your lack of understanding of the world cloud reality. If you want to use Quantum mechanics to explain your perceptions of reality then you must provide the nitty gritty details, not just point fingers at things that seem weird to you.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Obviously you're not really that tall and noen orange, but it's a real imagination, in otherwords the imagination I had was real, it was just an imagination.

If I have a sensation of pain, that sensation is real, even nothing hit me and it was just a neural misshap.

Pain is explainable and real unless the person is lying to get pain pills or sympathy. A neural mishap though would be real, and leaves the possibility that it could be completely explained in the real world.

In other words perceive all that you wish but your perceptions do not change reality, reality is what is real not imagined or perceived.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Then, what is your experimental verification for this materialist universe??

Did you miss the part where I said I wasnt here to debate your belief system?

 

[RGacky3]

Pain is explainable and real unless the person is lying to get pain pills or sympathy. A neural mishap though would be real, and leaves the possibility that it could be completely explained in the real world.

In other words perceive all that you wish but your perceptions do not change reality, reality is what is real not imagined or perceived.

What is imagined is also the result of neural activity .... and that neural activity is real ... the same with pain.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

I'm claiming that without humans there would be no distinction between sound waves and other types of waves .... it's just waves .... what make sthem sound waves is that what we call sound waves exist in a condition to where we can sense them through hearing ... i.e. what makes the SOUND waves as distinct fomr other types of waves is our perception, or ability to percieve them as sound.

Sound waves are a specific definition. But if the word sound disturbs you then you could call them what they actually: mechanical waves or pressure waves.

Just because us humans with hears determined that those certain pressure waves that exist between frequencies about 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz is defined as sound doesnt mean that those frequencies do not exist and do not exist when a tree falls down even though there are theoretically no ears to hear it.


But if your argument comes down to word games then rest assured that your perceptions will not budge in that case. You will continue to believe that sound is only the result of human perception ignoring the fact that the ear is only the receptor not the producer of the sound. Many animals can hear frequencies that we cannot as humans hear. Some people are deaf to certain tones. The mechanical action still exists even though no one can perceive it. Sound is defined as mechanical waves in a range of frequencies that science has determined. Either way a tree falling produces mechanical waves of frequencies determined by the material interaction in the event.

Again problem solved a tree falling always makes sound if there is a medium in which to transfer the mechanical waves of pressure.

 

[RGacky3]

Sound waves are a specific definition. But if the word sound disturbs you then you could call them what they actually: mechanical waves or pressure waves.

Just because us humans with hears determined that those certain pressure waves that exist between frequencies about 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz is defined as sound doesnt mean that those frequencies do not exist and do not exist when a tree falls down even though there are theoretically no ears to hear it.

But if your argument comes down to word games then rest assured that your perceptions will not budge in that case. You will continue to believe that sound is only the result of human perception ignoring the fact that the ear is only the receptor not the producer of the sound. Many animals can hear frequencies that we cannot as humans hear. Some people are deaf to certain tones. The mechanical action still exists even though no one can perceive it. Sound is defined as mechanical waves in a range of frequencies that science has determined. Either way a tree falling produces mechanical waves of frequencies determined by the material interaction in the event.

Again problem solved a tree falling always makes sound if there is a medium in which to transfer the mechanical waves of pressure.

The word sound isn't a problem, as long as you arn't saying that the distinction of "sound" exists outside of human perception.

The mechanical action has no relation to the distinction of sound without someone perceiving "sound." THAT's my point.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Did you miss the part where I said I wasnt here to debate your belief system?

As you spout off your belief system??

The fact is that, the findings of quantum physics shows that the materialist viewpoint is not sustainable... There's experimental evidence that shows this, so, I asked what experimental verification you have to support the assertion... Because as we go there are more and more experiments being performed which make an increasingly strong case against materialism.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

The word sound isn't a problem, as long as you arn't saying that the distinction of "sound" exists outside of human perception.

The mechanical action has no relation to the distinction of sound without someone perceiving "sound." THAT's my point.

Your point is as pointless as saying that words have no meaning without someone to read them.


But still the mechanical action existed as the result of the tree falling. Just because no one perceived the action doesnt mean at all that the action didnt happen. Tree fell which because of the laws of physics certain reactions happened, a human need not be there to witness the sound that the tree made for us to know that the sound happened.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

What is imagined is also the result of neural activity .... and that neural activity is real ... the same with pain.

I already said what you just said so why are you repeating it now as if you were making some kind of point?

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Well, that's what quantum physics is showing...

And it's not quite like it is real or is not real; the moon exists whether or not it's being observed, but when it's not being observed it exists in a state where it's a waveform potential of all the places that it could be, so, since the probability wave does not vary quickly, between observations it moves an expected amount; but there's a non-zero chance that when you look up the moon will be somewhere other than where it's expected, even I that probability is 1x10^-99:1 against it being anywhere other than the place we expect.

In other words you are doing it anyways, sharing your belief system. I just dont buy into your new age crap, deal with it and move on there is no way that I will join you.

 

[Medusa]

Hmmm so you are unable to refute the fact that Quantum Mechanics doesnt explain away a materialistic world?

Quantum weirdness while it may be extremely strange to us large collections of tiny pieces does not in any way make matter not matter. The reality is that what is real is the truth of reality.

The observer effect that Quantum New Agers go on about just ignores (or they are unaware) that it doesn't refer to a conscious observer. And there are a lot of sites online that are Quantum New Ager sites. A good metric to tell the difference between the good sites and the bad ones is to notice whether there is any quantization in their explanations. Most just use the word quantum because they think that it explains everything because most people cant grasp quantum mechanics at all.

ANd dont be insulted that you and I have a meager understanding of a extremely complicated subject. Trust me when i say that we are all ignorant when it comes to understanding things on the quantum level. But as as we understand any subject better the weirdness part starts to go away when we are better able to explain it.

Dont let your lack of understanding of the world cloud reality. If you want to use Quantum mechanics to explain your perceptions of reality then you must provide the nitty gritty details, not just point fingers at things that seem weird to you.

l dont believe in everything l read on teh internet and never claim l know everything but l am speaking according to what many quantum physicians have discovered while studying this phenomena


anyway
l was talking to a friend about parallel universes today

what do you think about it ?

 

[BmanMcfly]

In other words you are doing it anyways, sharing your belief system. I just dont buy into your new age crap, deal with it and move on there is no way that I will join you.

No, I was challenging you to cite the scientific basis for the materialist viewpoint that you believe in... I know that you cannot because the science is more and more clear that the materialist viewpoint is unsustainable, that quantum physical phenomena still operate even at the macro level.

Yes the physics can focus exclusive on the particle aspect of matter, and delve deeper into the building blocks of matter... However that ignores the wave aspect of matter and all the other weirdness that goes along with it.

But hey, there are still people that believe the earth is flat, and nothing will change their minds either.

 

[opendebate]

tell what you think about it

Reality is beyond our understanding. We are too lacking in real objectivity.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Then, what is your experimental verification for this materialist universe??

I see what tactic that you are trying here. You want to assign me to a old line of thought and make me try and protect it. The problem is that I dont know exactly what line of thought that you are trying to box me into. Though I like carrots I dont like carrots dangling from a stick, so just come out with your accusations and be done with it.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

l dont believe in everything l read on teh internet and never claim l know everything but l am speaking according to what many quantum physicians have discovered while studying this phenomena


anyway
l was talking to a friend about parallel universes today

what do you think about it ?

Parallel universes you say? Do you mean like in movies or do you mean multiverses?