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What is being done to stop or prevent Russian Interference in the 2024 election?

An interesting question, if a serious one.

The first and most obvious answer is, of course, to present evidence and logic undermining misinformation. If you believe that's bound to be ineffective, I have to infer that you think the population is too stupid to form its own opinions, and must be told what to think by government. If that's the case, we don't have a lot to talk about. I think the arc of history shows that people in general move better reliable information given access to facts and sound logic. Of course, there are and always will be exceptions, but those don't justify abandoning our basic liberties.

Another approach, one I favor, would be to formalize the teaching of the principles of logic and critical thinking into school. The basic ideas can be taught to very young children, and they would be a useful part of a critical evaluation of the rest of the curriculum throughout their lives.

Correct, i believe the population is too stupid to form their own opinions.

I don't think a person's political views has any impact on how stupid they are.

It is going to take a couple of generations for the public to develop a strong enough BS meter to deal with the information age.
 
I'm sorry you are so paranoid.

Nothing you were responding to was in the post you quoted.
You missed the point. It's not paranoia. It's pointing out the inherent irrationality in your commentary. You aren't getting that you are in no position to tell anyone what is and isn't "misinformation." YOU DON'T KNOW --

Second, there is no clearinghouse of truth, and the governments around the world are among he least trustworthy sources of information. They aren't always lying, but they lie enough to render them NOT A CLEARINGHOUSE FOR TRUTH.

Third, the people MUST have the absolute right to disagree with whatever the States or governments around the world say. That's required for individual liberty and it is what the First Amendment means and it is wha t the UN Declaration of Human Rights freedom of expression right means, and it is what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms freedom of expression means. These are not rights to "speak the truth as the government determines is truthful..." - this is a right to speak the opposing view and make opposing declarations of fact - to literally dispute the facts. If you lose the right to spread "misinformation" you lose your right to contradict the government, the State, or other authorities - because to have a source of truth to which we must, by law, adhere, we would be literally told what we can and cannot say on political issues.

I'm not talking about fraud - where person makes a false statement and thereby steals money or property from them, or fleeces them out of investments, or lies about the condition of a product they're selling. That's not the same thing at all. What you are talking about when you talk about "misinformation" is disagreeing with the government on the efficacy of masks, or the efficacy and safety of vaccines, etc. Those people - who "spread misinformation" arguing in favor of other treatments and against what the government and Big Pharma was pushing - were exercising a fundamental right protected by the Constitution, and ther is no way that should be disallowed by law.

The reason is - you don't know and I don't know and the government doesn't know, what the "truth" is in relation to those matters - they can't know. They can tell us what they think is right based on the evidence they have at the time. But that doesn't mean they are right. There have been infinite numbers of assertions made over the centuries that people and governments have thoought were inarguable truth. Yet they turned out to be BS.
 
Correct, i believe the population is too stupid to form their own opinions.

I don't think a person's political views has any impact on how stupid they are.

It is going to take a couple of generations for the public to develop a strong enough BS meter to deal with the information age.

In that case, I have to conclude you would be very comfortable in a totalitarian system, in which government ensures that the stupid population holds correct opinions by prior restraint and by punishment of wrong thought. I hope I'm wrong about that.

I would not be comfortable with such a government.

You might label this "paranoia". It might be worth considering that in world history, liberal democracy has a relatively short history, and that there have been liberal democracies that have moved quickly to totalitarianism given certain conditions. It was one of my worries about Trump, but he proved too incompetent to achieve any such thing, even granted he had the imagination to wish for it.

Government repression isn't so far fetched at all.
 
You missed the point. It's not paranoia. It's pointing out the inherent irrationality in your commentary. You aren't getting that you are in no position to tell anyone what is and isn't "misinformation." YOU DON'T KNOW --

Second, there is no clearinghouse of truth, and the governments around the world are among he least trustworthy sources of information. They aren't always lying, but they lie enough to render them NOT A CLEARINGHOUSE FOR TRUTH.

Third, the people MUST have the absolute right to disagree with whatever the States or governments around the world say. That's required for individual liberty and it is what the First Amendment means and it is wha t the UN Declaration of Human Rights freedom of expression right means, and it is what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms freedom of expression means. These are not rights to "speak the truth as the government determines is truthful..." - this is a right to speak the opposing view and make opposing declarations of fact - to literally dispute the facts. If you lose the right to spread "misinformation" you lose your right to contradict the government, the State, or other authorities - because to have a source of truth to which we must, by law, adhere, we would be literally told what we can and cannot say on political issues.

I'm not talking about fraud - where person makes a false statement and thereby steals money or property from them, or fleeces them out of investments, or lies about the condition of a product they're selling. That's not the same thing at all. What you are talking about when you talk about "misinformation" is disagreeing with the government on the efficacy of masks, or the efficacy and safety of vaccines, etc. Those people - who "spread misinformation" arguing in favor of other treatments and against what the government and Big Pharma was pushing - were exercising a fundamental right protected by the Constitution, and ther is no way that should be disallowed by law.

The reason is - you don't know and I don't know and the government doesn't know, what the "truth" is in relation to those matters - they can't know. They can tell us what they think is right based on the evidence they have at the time. But that doesn't mean they are right. There have been infinite numbers of assertions made over the centuries that people and governments have thoought were inarguable truth. Yet they turned out to be BS.

Please point out where I said I should be the Tsar of misinformation.

Yes, there are many times where the truth is a known.
 
In that case, I have to conclude you would be very comfortable in a totalitarian system, in which government ensures that the stupid population holds correct opinions by prior restraint and by punishment of wrong thought. I hope I'm wrong about that.

I would not be comfortable with such a government.

You might label this "paranoia". It might be worth considering that in world history, liberal democracy has a relatively short history, and that there have been liberal democracies that have moved quickly to totalitarianism given certain conditions. It was one of my worries about Trump, but he proved too incompetent to achieve any such thing, even granted he had the imagination to wish for it.

Government repression isn't so far fetched at all.

It's not all or nothing.

There are much better rules about this sort of thing in many European countries, and they aren't becoming an authoritarian state.

People went nuts about the government just letting social media companies know what sort of things might be disinformation during the last election cycle. That wasn't a violation of the 1st amendment, but the idiots went nuts about it.
 
It's not all or nothing.

There are much better rules about this sort of thing in many European countries, and they aren't becoming an authoritarian state.

People went nuts about the government just letting social media companies know what sort of things might be disinformation during the last election cycle. That wasn't a violation of the 1st amendment, but the idiots went nuts about it.

I think it is all or nothing. Either you have a right to speech without prior restraint or you don't.

Of course some countries don't guarantee that right and aren't totalitarian states. That doesn't mean it's something that we should give up. My reference to totalitarianism was in the context of your expressed view that populations are too stupid to form their own opinions; that's a view that sits very comfortably with the idea of absolute rule.

The fact that some idiots said something isn't germane to this discussion, as far as I can see.
 
I think it is all or nothing. Either you have a right to speech without prior restraint or you don't.

Of course some countries don't guarantee that right and aren't totalitarian states. That doesn't mean it's something that we should give up. My reference to totalitarianism was in the context of your expressed view that populations are too stupid to form their own opinions; that's a view that sits very comfortably with the idea of absolute rule.

The fact that some idiots said something isn't germane to this discussion, as far as I can see.

Well, to be honest, i feel the same way as Plato about democracy.
 
Well, to be honest, i feel the same way as Plato about democracy.

Yes, Plato was pretty fascistic. Lots of people talk about The Republic without having any idea what's in it.

I think any sensible person has grave doubts about democracy. The checks and balances built into our government are meant to provide a check on unbridled mob rule, and so far they have proved pretty successful at doing so.

Decisions about who goes into high offices fall to public elections not because that will necessarily produce the best result, but because any other system would put too much power into a small number of hands.

I think regulation of social media is going to be needed. But, as is obvious from my comments on this thread, I don't think prior restraint on content should be the form that regulation takes. I would rather see regulation focused on the things that give social media such an unusual amount of power, such as use of people's posting and viewing habits to self-referentially guide the content they see through algorithms. I don't have a detailed plan, but I think that regulation along those lines can remove some of the danger without throwing out the baby with the bath water.
 
The government created by the founders was too weak. it failed in 1861.
The government created by the founders was too weak - it failed in the 1700's, and was the Articles of Confederation. The current constitution was the second try.
 
I think any sensible person has grave doubts about democracy. The checks and balances built into our government are meant to provide a check on unbridled mob rule, and so far they have proved pretty successful at doing so.

One of the better commentators on this is from a century ago, Walter Lippmann, who began with the book "Public Opinion".
 
Early on, the Biden administration imposed sanctions against Russia and certain individuals as punishment for alleged Russian backed interference in the 2020 election. However, I have not found anything to suggest that the Biden Administration has done anything to protect the integrity of the election system from future Russian interference. Has anyone seen anything regarding what is being done to shore up our system against the onslaught of Russian interference?

For example, Russia apparently puts out memes and misinformation about candidates and this was very hurtful in the 2016 campaign to Hillary Clinton, literally costing her the election. So, has anything been done to stop them from committing this wrong?

And, what about their attempts to hack into and access voting machines and such? Have any measures been taken to stop it from happening and to make the systems more secure?

Of all the things Russia is said to have done in 2016 and 2020 as relates to elections, what is being done to prevent a repeat performance in 2024?
The easiest and most effective way to avoid a repeat of the Russian meddling of 2016 is for the GOP to nominate someone other than Trump. You would think that would go without saying.
 
I don't think the "Russians" have anything over on what is going on now. Jan 6 investigations, documents and electors all lined up in a pretty row. Now there is talk gaining steam of removing his name from state ballots if nothing else works. Can't cheat if his name isn't on the ballot.
Just wait. There will be a COVID lockdown too. There is NOTHING as important as making sure that Biden wins in 2024 and the rights of the people, if need be, MUST be restricted in the interests of saving democracy!
 
Early on, the Biden administration imposed sanctions against Russia and certain individuals as punishment for alleged Russian backed interference in the 2020 election. However, I have not found anything to suggest that the Biden Administration has done anything to protect the integrity of the election system from future Russian interference. Has anyone seen anything regarding what is being done to shore up our system against the onslaught of Russian interference?

For example, Russia apparently puts out memes and misinformation about candidates and this was very hurtful in the 2016 campaign to Hillary Clinton, literally costing her the election. So, has anything been done to stop them from committing this wrong?

And, what about their attempts to hack into and access voting machines and such? Have any measures been taken to stop it from happening and to make the systems more secure?

Of all the things Russia is said to have done in 2016 and 2020 as relates to elections, what is being done to prevent a repeat performance in 2024?
I think it should be obvious that counterintelligence strategies are not going to be publicly advertised. That would largely defeat the purpose. So the fact that you "have not found anything to suggest" that it is being worked on is completely meaningless.

It is being worked on. This is a major focus of our vast intelligence apparatus. Maybe they would have an easier time doing their job if conservative partisans weren't constantly attacking and threatening to defund them.
 
The government created by the founders was too weak - it failed in the 1700's, and was the Articles of Confederation. The current constitution was the second try.
We're on the third try then.
 
You won't hear a peep about it. The Democrats are in power.
 
It's not hard to see some risks that would arise if the government had such power.

The problem is that doing nothing effectively hands that power over, already.

What we see in some cases, just as an example, is that propaganda can amplify noise. It can take disinformation and broadcast it. Grant it an aura of legitimacy and send it far and wide. Give it a cult appeal, like the anti vaxers or the climate denialists or the flat earthers or the people who think birds aren’t real. This kind of attack can effectively take away your freedom of speech.

Let me explain why with an analogy. Let’s say I had some really loud white noise generator and I just followed you around, blasting it wherever you are. Not only would you be unable to hear anything else, but anything you say would get drowned out in noise.

So this feckless “we can’t do anything about it because it could be bad” is a pointless argument, it already is bad, just in a way you have no control over.
 
Because by the time you see the misinformation, the foreigner who created it has laundered it through 100 aunts and uncles who the government can't tell facebook not to publish.
So yeah, you're onto something.

US intelligence is onto it, too. Enough so that they prepared a press release.



"“These influence operations are designed to be deliberately small scale, the overall goal being US [and] Western persons presenting these ideas, seemingly organic,”
 
The problem is that doing nothing effectively hands that power over, already.

What we see in some cases, just as an example, is that propaganda can amplify noise. It can take disinformation and broadcast it. Grant it an aura of legitimacy and send it far and wide. Give it a cult appeal, like the anti vaxers or the climate denialists or the flat earthers or the people who think birds aren’t real. This kind of attack can effectively take away your freedom of speech.

Let me explain why with an analogy. Let’s say I had some really loud white noise generator and I just followed you around, blasting it wherever you are. Not only would you be unable to hear anything else, but anything you say would get drowned out in noise.

So this feckless “we can’t do anything about it because it could be bad” is a pointless argument, it already is bad, just in a way you have no control over.

You're comparing a "kind of like as if" situation with actually giving government the power to shut down speech. I don't find that convincing. Any of us are perfectly free to speak out against misinformation, as is the government.

As for "'we can't do anything about it because it could be bad"', you might want to direct that to someone who has said such such a thing. There are things that could be done, as I've suggested above. They don't have to involve giving up our basic liberties.
 
You're comparing a "kind of like as if" situation with actually giving government the power to shut down speech. I don't find that convincing.
It’s called an “analogy”.

Any of us are perfectly free to speak out against misinformation, as is the government.

As for "'we can't do anything about it because it could be bad"', you might want to direct that to someone who has said such such a thing. There are things that could be done, as I've suggested above. They don't have to involve giving up our basic liberties.
The solution you proposed is government education. Which I found hilarious because of all your fear about government doing something about it:

Historically, a liberal society will let the marketplace of ideas settle such issues. Giving authority to government to do that would be a dangerous step.

But giving government the authority to define what is or is not "disinformation" and ban its publication is, in my view, very much more dangerous.
Freedom of speech is one of those dangerous liberties the US (and now now many other countries) guaranteed from its beginning. Given the alternative, freedom of expression is worth the risks.

Giving government the power to control ideas that are communicated is a step toward not having recourse.
Personally, I like it that the government does not have the authority to tell me (or anyone else) not to say things, except in some well defined circumstances.

I think the best antidote for misinformation is information and reason. The same platforms that make the one available also make the other available.
But you completely missed by point, which is that by giving foreign governments unlimited freedom to amplify any noise they want, you are essentially giving up freedom of speech. You just don’t understand why.
 
Early on, the Biden administration imposed sanctions against Russia and certain individuals as punishment for alleged Russian backed interference in the 2020 election. However, I have not found anything to suggest that the Biden Administration has done anything to protect the integrity of the election system from future Russian interference. Has anyone seen anything regarding what is being done to shore up our system against the onslaught of Russian interference?

For example, Russia apparently puts out memes and misinformation about candidates and this was very hurtful in the 2016 campaign to Hillary Clinton, literally costing her the election. So, has anything been done to stop them from committing this wrong?

And, what about their attempts to hack into and access voting machines and such? Have any measures been taken to stop it from happening and to make the systems more secure?

Of all the things Russia is said to have done in 2016 and 2020 as relates to elections, what is being done to prevent a repeat performance in 2024?


With us in Canada - it's China!

What's being done? N O T H I N G!




Both sitting powers in USA and Canada are taking from the same pages of socialist/communist regimes.
So - why would they do anything?
 
It’s called an “analogy”.


The solution you proposed is government education. Which I found hilarious because of all your fear about government doing something about it:










But you completely missed by point, which is that by giving foreign governments unlimited freedom to amplify any noise they want, you are essentially giving up freedom of speech. You just don’t understand why.

Most of your post is a reflection of poor reading comprehension.

There are things the government can do to counter misinformation, as I have said. Positively publishing accurate information is one. Regulation of social media use of viewer habits for algorithms is probably another. I certainly have no "fear" of either of these.

Prior restraint on free speech should not be an option.

Your "point" is a weak and strained analogy. I didn't miss it. I just don't accept it.

It will take a much stronger argument than that to convince me to allow government to exercise prior restraint and/or compelled speech. If we give that up in the name of defending ourselves from "the Russians" (or whoever), what exactly are we defending?
 
Most of your post is a reflection of poor reading comprehension.
Ironic.

There are things the government can do to counter misinformation, as I have said. Positively publishing accurate information is one. Regulation of social media use of viewer habits for algorithms is probably another. I certainly have no "fear" of either of these.
Yes but you are unaware that unlimited free speech means bad actors can spoof as the same positively published accurate information sources.

I find it hilarious that you think don’t see the contradiction your argument that the government can’t regulate speech but it can regulate social media algorithms. It’s like saying the government can’t regulate what you say but it can regulate what you think.

Prior restraint on free speech should not be an option.
Based on, your fear?

Your "point" is a weak and strained analogy. I didn't miss it. I just don't accept it.
Simply denial then.

It will take a much stronger argument than that to convince me to allow government to exercise prior restraint and/or compelled speech.
I think you are confused. Do you not understand that the government can already impose prior restraint in cases involving national security? Compelled speech is a strawman.

If we give that up in the name of defending ourselves from "the Russians" (or whoever), what exactly are we defending?
Oh yes, an unconvincing platitude like when the good guy in a movie puts a bullet in the head of a genocidal dictator and someone says, “now you’re as bad as they were.”
 
Ironic.


Yes but you are unaware that unlimited free speech means bad actors can spoof as the same positively published accurate information sources.

I find it hilarious that you think don’t see the contradiction your argument that the government can’t regulate speech but it can regulate social media algorithms. It’s like saying the government can’t regulate what you say but it can regulate what you think.


Based on, your fear?


Simply denial then.


I think you are confused. Do you not understand that the government can already impose prior restraint in cases involving national security? Compelled speech is a strawman.


Oh yes, an unconvincing platitude like when the good guy in a movie puts a bullet in the head of a genocidal dictator and someone says, “now you’re as bad as they were.”

I'm not going to do back and forth spitballs with you. You won't find any reciprocal insults in what follows. There are a couple of points here, though, that could be discussed if you're so inclined.

I don't think your analogy is convincing for reasons I've already given. I don't like repeating myself, but I will. Someone following you around making noise doesn't actually take away your power of speech; I see that as the flaw in your analogy. You remain capable, and the government remains capable, of free expression in as great a volume as you want.

You actually have a point about regulation of algorithms. That could come pretty close to the edge. However, I maintain that algorithms and how they are used are fundamentally not the same as speech. Preventing certain manipulations of user's habits could, I think, be done without prior restraint on speech itself. I don't have a detailed idea of how that would work, but I can give the reasons why I think it's at the heart of the matter.

Since the printing press, it's been possible to transmit information and misinformation much more rapidly. And of course, advances in technology have made it ever easier and cheaper to do so. Now, people talk as if the Internet and social media are a qualitative change in that progression, but they aren't. It's just more of the same of what we've had in growing amounts since Gutenberg.

What's new is the rapid, automatic processing of data about user's interests, how long they look at particular things posted, etc. to create custom echo chambers for people. This is leading to individuals self-selecting certain points of view, and the misinformation that goes with them, without even realizing it. These manipulations are not, I believe, speech in themselves, and can be regulated with no 1st Amendment issues. This has the advantage of attacking the problem without taking away individual liberties, as well as attacking what is genuinely new and different about social media that seems to be causing many of the associated problems.

When I say that prior restraint should not be an option, it's because I value highly the basic liberties guaranteed in the Bill or Rights. Of course speech is sometimes limited in certain extreme circumstances of national security and incitement to violence. I don't think idiotic posts on Facebook about COVID or Qanon rise to that standard.

If you want to call that "fear", be my guest. I find it odd that so many people think they can win an argument by ascribing "fear" to their opponent. If the government gains the power to dictate what people can and can't say outside of limited extreme circumstances, you're damn right that I fear what the consequences of that may be. I worry about global warming as well; would you dismiss that as "fear"?

Your final comment about the "unconvincing platitude" makes no sense to me. Surely you're aware of the times in our history when we have compromised our basic liberties in the interests of fighting off some bogeyman, to bad effect. Loyalty oaths in the 50's and early 60's come to mind. Whether you think it's a platitude or not, what's great about what we have in the US is our guaranteed basic liberties. To give them up in the name of fighting off those who would take them away is worse than pointless.
 
I don't think your analogy is convincing for reasons I've already given... Someone following you around making noise doesn't actually take away your power of speech; I see that as the flaw in your analogy. You remain capable, and the government remains capable, of free expression in as great a volume as you want.
It doesn’t take away your freedom to speak, but it can completely prevent you from being heard which is effectively no different. We do not allow extraordinary noise with audio waves, if you started blasting music so loud your neighbors walls shook, the police could intervene. For bots pretending to be people posting on the internet, or creating fake “news station” websites that are full of propaganda, you argue our hands are tied.

You actually have a point about regulation of algorithms. That could come pretty close to the edge. However, I maintain that algorithms and how they are used are fundamentally not the same as speech. Preventing certain manipulations of user's habits could, I think, be done without prior restraint on speech itself. I don't have a detailed idea of how that would work, but I can give the reasons why I think it's at the heart of the matter.

What's new is the rapid, automatic processing of data about user's interests, how long they look at particular things posted, etc. to create custom echo chambers for people. This is leading to individuals self-selecting certain points of view, and the misinformation that goes with them, without even realizing it. These manipulations are not, I believe, speech in themselves, and can be regulated with no 1st Amendment issues. This has the advantage of attacking the problem without taking away individual liberties, as well as attacking what is genuinely new and different about social media that seems to be causing many of the associated problems.
I don’t have an issue with echo chambers. Those are old. What we have now is that our lives are being published and processed by powerful information systems that piece together how to best tug our heart strings and completely manipulate us as an individual, so that those targeted propaganda messages can be sent straight to us. There’s nothing stopping them from sending a video of President Trump pretending to support gun rights to a gun rights advocate, and sending a different video of President Trump pretending to support gun control to a gun control advocate.

Feedback is crucially important. Society needs high quality feedback. Noise in our feedback loops can be absolutely devastating, and it has no value. You wouldn’t drive with your eyes closed, would you? Of course not. Would you think it’s okay for other drivers to blind you so you can’t see? I think not. You can’t even wear headphones because it could interfere with your ability to hear an ambulance’s siren!

But somehow we are failing to apply the exact same logic to information technology.

When I say that prior restraint should not be an option, it's because I value highly the basic liberties guaranteed in the Bill or Rights. Of course speech is sometimes limited in certain extreme circumstances of national security and incitement to violence. I don't think idiotic posts on Facebook about COVID or Qanon rise to that standard.
I’m not talking about what the law is, I’m talking about what it ought to be. Even then, the first amendment is consistent with protections against fraud.

If the government gains the power to dictate what people can and can't say outside of limited extreme circumstances, you're damn right that I fear what the consequences of that may be.
The government already has that power, for the sake of national security. The theater of war is no longer clashing lines of calvary on a field, it is being fought on a new medium.

Your final comment about the "unconvincing platitude" makes no sense to me. Surely you're aware of the times in our history when we have compromised our basic liberties in the interests of fighting off some bogeyman, to bad effect. Loyalty oaths in the 50's and early 60's come to mind. Whether you think it's a platitude or not, what's great about what we have in the US is our guaranteed basic liberties. To give them up in the name of fighting off those who would take them away is worse than pointless.
You said “what are we defending?”- we’re still defending everything else. What liberty of yours is given up if some Russian or Chinese propaganda organization gets countered? Absolutely ****ing none.
 
Early on, the Biden administration imposed sanctions against Russia and certain individuals as punishment for alleged Russian backed interference in the 2020 election. However, I have not found anything to suggest that the Biden Administration has done anything to protect the integrity of the election system from future Russian interference. Has anyone seen anything regarding what is being done to shore up our system against the onslaught of Russian interference?

For example, Russia apparently puts out memes and misinformation about candidates and this was very hurtful in the 2016 campaign to Hillary Clinton, literally costing her the election. So, has anything been done to stop them from committing this wrong?

And, what about their attempts to hack into and access voting machines and such? Have any measures been taken to stop it from happening and to make the systems more secure?

Of all the things Russia is said to have done in 2016 and 2020 as relates to elections, what is being done to prevent a repeat performance in 2024?

Republicans are very much opposed to stopping misinformation and doing everything they can in Congress to protect it.
 
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