What if the legal reasoning for Roe is flawed?

[JayDubya]

Why are women obligated to give birth?

No one has said that they are.

I do feel that everyone is obligated to refrain from killing other humans in aggression, but that is not the same thing.

You're treading on thin ice, Jay.

Thin ice? Do not threaten me, sir.

Especially not after comparing me to a terrorist and suggesting I approve of beheadings just because I disagree with your political opinion on a distinct matter. Your behavior herein is horrific.

YES you claim the unborn are more important than women.

I have never made this claim.

Please refrain from lying, and stay on point.

I believe all humans are created equal. This is not a new concept to you. We have had this conversation before. Equality is all about not treating one human as more important than another.

You'd have women imprisoned for abortion.

Of course I would. Aggressively killing another human being after premeditation is a homicide that should always be criminalized as the most severe category of murder.

This does not mean that anyone is "more important" than anyone else.

Nothing in that sentence indicates a differentiation based upon the age of the victim or the perpetrator.

 

[Removable Mind]

No one has said that they are.

I do feel that everyone is obligated to refrain from killing other humans in aggression, but that is not the same thing.



Thin ice? Do not threaten me, sir.

Especially not after comparing me to a terrorist and suggesting I approve of beheadings just because I disagree with your political opinion on a distinct matter. Your behavior herein is horrific.



I have never made this claim.

Please refrain from lying, and stay on point.

I believe all humans are created equal. This is not a new concept to you. We have had this conversation before. Equality is all about not treating one human as more important than another.



Of course I would. Aggressively killing another human being after premeditation is a homicide that should always be criminalized as the most severe category of murder.

This does not mean that anyone is "more important" than anyone else.

Nothing in that sentence indicates a differentiation based upon the age of the victim or the perpetrator.

Everything you just posted is completely dishonest. You are dead adamant against abortion period - even to the point of severe punishment of women.

Why are women obligated to give birth? Why are the unborn more important to the born.

 

[nota bene]

Why are the unborn more important than the born?

Why do you ask this? How many times do the many people who are pro-life have to say that they regard the unborn as important, not more important, than the mother will it take for you to stop repeating this and making statements such as that the concern of those who are pro-life ends once a baby is born?

 

[Removable Mind]

Why do you ask this? How many times do the many people who are pro-life have to say that they regard the unborn as important, not more important, than the mother will it take for you to stop repeating this and making statements such as that the concern of those who are pro-life ends once a baby is born?

Nota...then stop claiming they are equal...because you can't define how it's possible. Women are way more valuable than the unborn. It's simple common sense.

 

[mac]

Nor will you admit they are meaningless if they aren't enforceable.

They aren't meaningless, they obviously mean something. Further, abortion is illegal (with exceptions) in the countries party to the treaty, so, how is it not enforceable?

 

[JayDubya]

Everything you just posted is completely dishonest.

Everything I have just posted is entirely authentic and entirely consistent with my posting record.

You are being dishonest and uncivil with straw man arguments and the employment of the ad hominem fallacy.

You are dead adamant against abortion period

Hi, I'm JayDubya and I post a lot about how I oppose abortion on this site called Debate Politics. Is this the first time we've met or something? :roll:

Of course I am adamantly against abortion. Duh. So what?

even to the point of severe punishment of women

I do support severe punishment for anyone who kills another human being in aggression. The punishment is based upon the action - the harm they have caused to others - and nothing else.

Why are women obligated to give birth? Why are the unborn more important to the born.

They are not, and they are not.

You are asking bizarre loaded questions based upon assumptions you have made that are false and have been demonstrated to be false.

 

[mac]

Nota...then stop claiming they are equal...because you can't define how it's possible. Women are way more valuable than the unborn. It's simple common sense.

No one life is more valuable than another. Human life, in all its forms, races, abilities and ages is beyond value.

 

[mac]

If personhood existed that is exactly what would happen. Women would be a perpetual victim to laws, governments, religions - simply because they have a uterus.

That's not what happens now. I'm a person and I can't legally kill you unless you attempt to do me grievous bodily harm or try to kill me. Your slippery slope argument doesn't have a shred of logic in it.

 

[nota bene]

Nota...then stop claiming they are equal...because you can't define how it's possible. Women are way more valuable than the unborn. It's simple common sense.

I can say exactly what I want, which is exactly what I believe. Either all life is valuable, which is my opinion, or none is.

What you call "common sense" is your opinion. I don't share it. And what I don't appreciate is your continually stating as fact what I consistently say is not: I do NOT believe that a fetus is MORE valuable than a woman; I believe that the fetus's life is AS valuable. Not more.

Get it? NOT MORE. Obviously, you believe that my opinion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's not my opinion, sincerely held. You don't get to tell me or anybody else what I believe.

 

[JayDubya]

I can say exactly what I want, which is exactly what I believe. Either all life is valuable, which is my opinion, or none is.

What you call "common sense" is your opinion. I don't share it. And what I don't appreciate is your continually stating as fact what I consistently say is not: I do NOT believe that a fetus is MORE valuable than a woman; I believe that the fetus's life is AS valuable. Not more.

Get it? NOT MORE. Obviously, you believe that my opinion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's not my opinion, sincerely held. You don't get to tell me or anybody else what I believe.

A like is not enough. Thank you for this post.

I agree most heartily with the sentiments within.

Women are way more valuable than the unborn. It's simple common sense.

Your naked bigotry is not "common sense."

 

[nota bene]

I just get tired of endlessly recycled lies/myths/talking points. Over and over those who post in this forum who are pro-life state emphatically that what's being said is not their view, but this doesn't seem to matter. And I wonder about that too--why it doesn't matter at all.

 

[Removable Mind]

I can say exactly what I want, which is exactly what I believe. Either all life is valuable, which is my opinion, or none is.

What you call "common sense" is your opinion. I don't share it. And what I don't appreciate is your continually stating as fact what I consistently say is not: I do NOT believe that a fetus is MORE valuable than a woman; I believe that the fetus's life is AS valuable. Not more.

Get it? NOT MORE. Obviously, you believe that my opinion is wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's not my opinion, sincerely held. You don't get to tell me or anybody else what I believe.

Not all life is as valuable or equal to others. There has to be a way to give equality to the unborn - that doesn't infringe on the rights of the born but more in particular women. IT CAN'T BE DONE without significant negative consequences to the born.

 

[Removable Mind]

That's not what happens now. I'm a person and I can't legally kill you unless you attempt to do me grievous bodily harm or try to kill me. Your slippery slope argument doesn't have a shred of logic in it.

That has nothing to do with the argument. There is ZERO way to give personhood rights with all things being equal. You can't or won't give an outline as to how that is possible and can be done without the unborn infringing on the rights of the born...and in very significant ways.

 

[nota bene]

Not all life is as valuable or equal to others. There has to be a way to give equality to the unborn - that doesn't infringe on the rights of the born but more in particular women. IT CAN'T BE DONE without significant negative consequences to the born.

This is your opinion. It's not "common sense" or fact. You're entitled to your sincerely held opinion...but you are not entitled to make false statements about what I or others who are pro-life believe. When you are repeatedly and consistently told that someone does not believe that the unborn are more valuable than the born, why do you persist in making this claim?

Again, I do not think that the unborn are more valuable than the born. I do believe that the unborn have a right to life. I do not women to be punished; I want unborn babies not to be killed.

 

[Removable Mind]

This is your opinion. It's not "common sense" or fact. You're entitled to your sincerely held opinion...but you are not entitled to make false statements about what I or others who are pro-life believe. When you are repeatedly and consistently told that someone does not believe that the unborn are more valuable than the born, why do you persist in making this claim?

Again, I do not think that the unborn are more valuable than the born. I do believe that the unborn have a right to life. I do not women to be punished; I want unborn babies not to be killed.

You can't outline how equality can be given to the unborn without many negative consequences to the born. Women would be punished if personhood is granted.

 

[Removable Mind]

I just get tired of endlessly recycled lies/myths/talking points. Over and over those who post in this forum who are pro-life state emphatically that what's being said is not their view, but this doesn't seem to matter. And I wonder about that too--why it doesn't matter at all.

there is no myths associated with attempting to give personhood to the unborn. That's why states who have tried fail because such laws have been declared unconstitutional

 

[minnie616]

Not all life is as valuable or equal to others. There has to be a way to give equality to the unborn - that doesn't infringe on the rights of the born but more in particular women. IT CAN'T BE DONE without significant negative consequences to the born.

Agreed.

Many people including many pro lifers do not even think about unintended consequences that would happen if the unborn were granted personhood.

From the following:

Thus, this initiative is the first step in a plan by Personhood USA to overturn Roe V Wade and end all abortion in this country. The impact goes further than shutting down clinics. This amendment could literally imprison women in addition to imprisoning women in their own bodies.

Here are some examples that come to mind of the possible impacts this amendment would have. Add your own insane scenarios in the comments section:

1. A pregnant woman who goes out to dinner with family and friends and accidentally picks up the wrong glass and has a swig of rum and coke can be charged for child abuse.

2. What about pregnant illegal immigrants? The right wing is pretty hot on getting them out of the country as fast as possible. Well, this is going to be a big problem when the pregnant immigrant is actually two people…one who is legal (the fertilized egg) and the other who is not (the living, breathing woman). I guess at this point most folks trying to avoid deportation should get pregnant and move to Mississippi and have their “legal” zygote/fetus/child apply for welfare and medicaid.

3. Women who are found to have birth control pills could be prosecuted for attempted murder.

4. If a pregnant woman wearing 2″ heels trips and falls, subsequently having a miscarriage, she could be prosecuted for manslaughter.

5. When a woman has a life threatening ectopic pregnancy, who decides which “person” gets to live and which “person” gets to die?

6. Will an ultrasound picture be an acceptable form of ID for the fetus/person to be able to travel out of the country? Will “don’t know yet” be acceptable as a category for gender?

7. How will any future candidate for President prove that they were conceived/born in the United States?

Fertilized Eggs Are NOT People!

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention to Pro-life...

More potential problems from the more radical pro-life side.

If personhood is granted to the unborn, then it's very possible that the use of certain contraceptives will be outlawed. Birth control pills, intrauterine devices (IUD’s), and the morning after pill work by preventing fertilization from occurring but, theoretically, may occasionally prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. Because personhood groups believe that every stage of development is legally a person from the moment of fertilization, these methods of birth control would not be allowed.

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention Pro-Life...MORE COMPLICATIONS....

If a physician is faced with the choice of saving a woman’s life or refusing to harm an embryo/person, could he or she be sued for malpractice no matter what choice was made?

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention Pro-life...MORE COMPLICATION....

15% to 20% of pregnancies result in miscarriages.

Are Police going to have to investigate each miscarriage as a possible homicide? Significant numbers of police will have to be employed to carry out investigations.

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention Pro-life....MORE COMPLICATIONS...

For all of you social services hating pro-life conservatives....in all probability the unborn will automatically qualify to receive government assistance.

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention Pro-life...MORE COMPLICATIONS....

If embryos are persons, is the freezing of embryos considered child abuse? If so, what is the role of the Department of Human Services?

 

[Removable Mind]

Attention Pro-life...MORE COMPLICATIONS...

If an embryos “dies” in some part of the in vitro fertilization process, what kind of investigation will be conducted? Could an In vitro technician be tried for manslaughter if they accidentally kill an embryo?

 

[nota bene]

there is no myths associated with attempting to give personhood to the unborn. That's why states who have tried fail because such laws have been declared unconstitutional

Please don't dissemble. You know as well as I do that I was referring to the myths which you perpetuate--that those who are pro-life value the unborn more than the mother, that pro-life interest in the welfare of children stops at birth, and etc.

 

[Removable Mind]

Please don't dissemble. You know as well as I do that I was referring to the myths which you perpetuate--that those who are pro-life value the unborn more than the mother, that pro-life interest in the welfare of children stops at birth, and etc.

The evidence points very much to....the unborn are holy until they are born. Then the many pro-life who want to so desperately control other people's family size and sex life...also want to shutdown many social services which directly impact born children.