What do you believe to be true, or not true

[quip]

1. We are all born the same

No. All are born with differing dispositions and personalities.

2. Our development is dictated by our environment

To a large degree, yes.

3. Everyone has their own version of what is "right"

Right!

4. Most people couldn't care less

Depends on the issue. Some have a penchant for caring too much.

5. As a species, we are improving

Evolution runs at a glacial speed, but yes.

6. We believe what we "want" to believe

Quite often. Our biases give us a feeling of security.

7. We can't change other people, we can only change ourselves

If mankind is changeable then both be true.

8. Humans tend to live in "tribes" excluding those not in their tribe

An all too human instinct I believe we're ultimately moving away from. Re: #'s 2, 5, 6 & 7

9. Religion is in fact opium for the masses

At the core humans are spiritual beings, religion taps into this, for good or ill.

10. Most humans regret the choices they made when the end arrives

Of course. You haven't fully lived without committing a few errors. Some larger than others.

 

[ataraxia]

Stating religion is the opiate of the people suggests its like a drug that makes people complacent and not care about other people. I could literally cut and paste thousands of ministries that are engaged in helping people. If it is an opiate...its a good one.

It's probably more like alcohol: there are some benefits to it: it can help people relax, act as a social lubricant in get-togethers, etc.... but it also has a lot of downsides, like the propensity of so many to alcoholism, broken marriages, drunk driving, liver disease, cancer, etc... Taken as a whole, I would probably say it has more minuses than pluses.

Religion is the same: there are some pluses to it, but probably more minuses.

“Whether the possibility of rearing new Martin Luther Kings is worth the risk of rearing new Jerry Falwells is a matter of risk management. To my mind, the advantage of getting rid of the Falwells is worth the risk of getting rid of the Kings. But I have no knock-down argument to bring to bear. I just suspect that the continued existence of the churches is, by and large, more of a danger than a help to the rise of a global democratic society.”
-Richard Rorty

And much like the rise of non-alcoholic bars and drinks- where you try to eliminate the alcohol but keep the good parts of it (the social and fun aspects), there are some movements afoot to do the same with religion, like the idea of atheist churches. Here, you have the weekly social gatherings and networks, the inspiring sermons, charity works, etc.... without all the superstitious baggage and tribalism. Will it work? I guess we will see, just like with non-alcoholic beer.

Alain de Botton reveals plans for 'temple to atheism' in heart of London

Writer wants to build tower to celebrate life on earth as an antidote to Richard Dawkins' 'destructive' approach to atheism

www.theguardian.com

 

[ataraxia]

No, it's human behavior that is relativistic, not morals.

How would we know we have figured out the ultimate objective morality? All we see is religious people claim their latest opinions are "objective morality", and constantly changing it as their own opinions change.

 

[DrewPaul]

Stating religion is the opiate of the people suggests its like a drug that makes people complacent and not care about other people. I could literally cut and paste thousands of ministries that are engaged in helping people. If it is an opiate...its a good one.

It's probably more like alcohol: there are some benefits to it: it can help people relax, act as a social lubricant in get-togethers, etc.... but it also has a lot of downsides, like the propensity of so many to alcoholism, broken marriages, drunk driving, liver disease, cancer, etc... Taken as a whole, I would probably say it has more minuses than pluses.

Religion is the same: there are some pluses to it, but probably more minuses.

That's quite the equivocation comparing religion to alcoholism. Religious belief far more often leads to saving a marriage and breaking from alcoholism. Does religious belief cause people to drive erratically? Cause liver disease and cancer? Its obvious you're taking a known evil in society (excessive alcohol) and claiming that's what religion is like.

“Whether the possibility of rearing new Martin Luther Kings is worth the risk of rearing new Jerry Falwells is a matter of risk management. To my mind, the advantage of getting rid of the Falwells is worth the risk of getting rid of the Kings. But I have no knock-down argument to bring to bear. I just suspect that the continued existence of the churches is, by and large, more of a danger than a help to the rise of a global democratic society.”
-Richard Rorty

What about the risk of raising Mao Se Tung, Adolph Hitler, Mussolini, Pot Pol, The Uni-bomber. I'm sure you didn't like Falwell but did he murder people? Did he imprison people? Then he was caught in a scandal and was denounced. How do you know a church of atheism won't cause its own us vs them tribalism?

 

[ataraxia]

Stating religion is the opiate of the people suggests its like a drug that makes people complacent and not care about other people. I could literally cut and paste thousands of ministries that are engaged in helping people. If it is an opiate...its a good one.

That's quite the equivocation comparing religion to alcoholism. Religious belief far more often leads to saving a marriage and breaking from alcoholism. Does religious belief cause people to drive erratically? Cause liver disease and cancer? Its obvious you're taking a known evil in society (excessive alcohol) and claiming that's what religion is like.

You are mixing analogies. Dishonest.

Alcohol can cause people to drive erratically. Religion can make them closed-minded, stagnant, and intolerant.

What about the risk of raising Mao Se Tung, Adolph Hitler, Mussolini, Pot Pol, The Uni-bomber.

Yes, there are bad people in the world, even without religion. Just like there are bad drivers, even without alcohol. Doesn't make alcohol an unequivocal good because it helps people relax.

I'm sure you didn't like Falwell but did he murder people? Did he imprison people?

The only reason he didn't is because in this country, he can't. The founding fathers of this country took political power away from people like him. It was not a good situation when they did have that kind of power- because then, yes- they certainly did do all those things.

"They [the Christian clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries...Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"
-James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

Scene from St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre:

How do you know a church of atheism won't cause its own us vs them tribalism?

Because it doesn't lay claim to any kind of ultimate truth, and look down on those who say anything else. The only people it looks down on are people who make claims without any evidence or rationality.

 

[DrewPaul]

You are mixing analogies. Dishonest.

Alcohol can cause people to drive erratically. Religion can make them closed-minded, stagnant, and intolerant.

It also leads to thousands of hospitals, hospices, food, medicine, shelter and education. It leads to shelter for battered woman and orphanages for abandoned children. It leads to people going to the armpits of the world and bringing hope. It leads to counseling of the down trodden. There are plenty of non-religious beliefs that make folks close-minded and stagnant, like those who claim religion is the cause of all evil in the world. Its utter BS but many folks religiously believe it.

 

[ataraxia]

It also leads to thousands of hospitals, hospices, food, medicine, shelter and education. It leads to shelter for battered woman and orphanages for abandoned children. It leads to people going to the armpits of the world and bringing hope. It leads to counseling of the down trodden. There are plenty of non-religious beliefs that make folks close-minded and stagnant, like those who claim religion is the cause of all evil in the world. Its utter BS but many folks religiously believe it.

True. But alcohol also has lots of benefits too. People bond and have more fun when they have it, they forget their troubles, etc... I am not questioning that both alcohol and religion have pluses. The only question is whether all the pluses outweigh all the minuses. Considering that there are lots of secular organizations which already do that kind of charity work and counseling (the equivalent of non-alcoholic beer in our analogy), I suspect the minuses outweigh the pluses.

 

[Mircea]

How would we know we have figured out the ultimate objective morality? All we see is religious people claim their latest opinions are "objective morality", and constantly changing it as their own opinions change.

I have no interest in anything religious people might say. That's right, I'm an Atheist.

 

[Mach]

1. We are all born the same

As brotherhood? Yes. Biologically? Obviously not.

2. Our development is dictated by our environment

nature + nurture.

3. Everyone has their own version of what is "right"

yes

4. Most people couldn't care less

often if its not their butt on the line, but they perk up often times when it is

5. As a species, we are improving

In some ways yes, but we are drifting further and further from what our bodies evolved for, so we're experiencing some issues that arise from our modern lifestyles

6. We believe what we "want" to believe

Thankfully not all of us

7. We can't change other people, we can only change ourselves

Easier to change yourself, but totally possible to help others change
Good friends/family often change each other, and keep each other grounded. Sometimes you'll give advice to a friend in distress, then years later they give the same advice to you, and really you both needed the advice, and you both already knew the advice. People can and do help people change and grow.

8. Humans tend to live in "tribes" excluding those not in their tribe

sadly, yes

9. Religion is in fact opium for the masses

a lot more than that, its quite complex and still intertwined with much of humanity

10. Most humans regret the choices they made when the end arrives

Doubtful, or at least, that's only a small part for most people.

 

[multivita-man]

1. We are all born the same

Not the same but we're born with the same basic needs and as individuals, we're the same in that we do what we can to ensure our own survival. It starts with crying to get our mother's attention.

2. Our development is dictated by our environment

3. Everyone has their own version of what is "right"

6. We believe what we "want" to believe

7. We can't change other people, we can only change ourselves

8. Humans tend to live in "tribes" excluding those not in their tribe

9. Religion is in fact opium for the masses

Our behavior is socially-mediated. We're not just individuals; we're a part of a group and we are usually interdependent to some degrees, although modern life has enabled individualism to much greater degrees than was possible when we were living without state assistance.

5. As a species, we are improving

We are growing. We will continue to grow as a species until our environment no longer supports that growth. Then we will rapidly collapse and try growing again if that's still possible.

10. Most humans regret the choices they made when the end arrives

I think most people become evermore aware of the finiteness of their time on this planet, the irreversibility of time, and maybe wish they had used some of that time differently. I think this is how mid-life crises start: an awareness that so much of their time is now gone and there's nothing they can do to change past or even present outcomes. We can only do something about future outcomes, except for the one inevitable outcome that awaits us all.

 

[poppopfox]

“You live as if you were destined to live forever, no thought of your frailty ever enters your head, of how much time has already gone by you take no heed. You squander time as if you drew from a full and abundant supply, though all the while that day which you bestow on some person or thing is perhaps your last.”
- Seneca

 

[DCCougar]

1. We are all born the same

Except for disabilities or deformities, I'd say yes. But seconds after birth, everyone's experience is different and begins to diverge.

2. Our development is dictated by our environment

I'm thinking this is an 8 or a 9. Except for disabilities or deformities, the effect of genetics is overestimated.

3. Everyone has their own version of what is "right"

Quite a few things are actually "right," regardless of anyone's "version."

4. Most people couldn't care less

It seems too many Americans couldn't care less.

5. As a species, we are improving

10.

6. We believe what we "want" to believe

"We"? Obviously some do, but this should not be the basis for "belief." It's a comforting belief to think my Masai necklace wards off all danger. Comforting, but nonsense.

7. We can't change other people, we can only change ourselves

1 -- False. Despite the experience on this site, plenty of people are flexible enough to change their views.

8. Humans tend to live in "tribes" excluding those not in their tribe

2. Historically, the "tendency" is away from tribalism and toward cosmopolitanism. Unfortunately, some in the U.S. seek to regress.

9. Religion is in fact opium for the masses

More or less. Overlooking the false "beliefs," there are usually some useful lessons in the various religions, including how to get along with others. But as noted by Carl Sagan, ""Ethical rules... were not originally invented by some enlightened human lawgiver. They go deep into our evolutionary past. They were with our ancestral line from a time before we were human." When humans cooperate, the individuals benefit.

10. Most humans regret the choices they made when the end arrives

Who knows? I doubt it. When the end arrived for one woman I knew, all she said was "Well, it's been interesting."

 

[noonereal]

What do you believe to be true, or not true

I believe whatever MAGA Media tells me because I am out of my ****in mind.

 

[DCCougar]

Our environment changes so quickly I suspect our evolution is somewhat directionless.

Well, evolution does not have the "direction" that many people think it does.

"Our world overflows with peculiar, otherwise senseless shapes and behaviors that function only to promote victory in the great game of mating and reproduction. No other world but Darwin's would fill nature with such curiosities that weaken species and hinder good design but bring success where it really matters in Darwin's universe alone -- passing more genes to future generations." -- S.J.Gould​

 

[DCCougar]

5. As a species, we are improving

Evolution runs at a glacial speed, but yes.

When humans figured out how to pass to future generations not just genes but information and what has been learned before, evolution was left in the dust.

 

[Sweden]

I believe whatever MAGA Media tells me because I am out of my ****in mind.

I think the importance of genetic inheritance in both physical and personality factors is massively underrated. Researches over many years in many countries all point in the same direction: genes matter more than upbringing.

'We are all born the same' may be a nice thing to believe but it does not chime with reality.

 

[NatMorton]

Well, evolution does not have the "direction" that many people think it does.

"Our world overflows with peculiar, otherwise senseless shapes and behaviors that function only to promote victory in the great game of mating and reproduction. No other world but Darwin's would fill nature with such curiosities that weaken species and hinder good design but bring success where it really matters in Darwin's universe alone -- passing more genes to future generations." -- S.J.Gould​

Yes, it does have a direction. Its direction is toward increasing a set of favorable characteristics in future generations given a set of environmental pressures. It gets directionless when those pressures change frequently, and I think that is true of the environment humans live in today.

It's a bit like a piece of paper blowing in the wind. If the wind is constant, the paper has an overall direction. If the wind is swirling, much less so.

 

[Sweden]

Yes, it does have a direction. Its direction is toward increasing a set of favorable characteristics in future generations given a set of environmental pressures. It gets directionless when those pressures change frequently, and I think that is true of the environment humans live in today.

It's a bit like a piece of paper blowing in the wind. If the wind is constant, the paper has an overall direction. If the wind is swirling, much less so.

Yes what is an adaptive - favourable - mutation will depend on factors external to the organism. These factors vary - in your good analogy the wind is always swirling faster, usually, than genes can mutate.

 

[noonereal]

I think the importance of genetic inheritance in both physical and personality factors is massively underrated. Researches over many years in many countries all point in the same direction: genes matter more than upbringing.

'We are all born the same' may be a nice thing to believe but it does not chime with reality.

This has been agreed for a long time now. Nature not nurture is dominate and it's not close.

 

[DCCougar]

Yes, it does have a direction. Its direction is toward increasing a set of favorable characteristics in future generations given a set of environmental pressures.

Fair enough. The question is, what exactly is "favorable"? Survival of the fittest? Complexity? Individual fitness for survival is obviously a key factor, but the enormous tail of the male peacock is a serious drawback in that regard. Apparently its benefit in reproduction has outweighed that disadvantage in individual survival fitness.

 

[mrjurrs]

his thread is NOT about Biden, or Trump, or the Left or the Right. Evaluate the following statements on their own merit. Do you agree or disagree with the statements made, and please state why. If you want you can even rate each statement from 1 to 10, 10 being the most truthful in YOUR opinion.

1. We are all born the same

2. Our development is dictated by our environment

3. Everyone has their own version of what is "right"

4. Most people couldn't care less

5. As a species, we are improving

6. We believe what we "want" to believe

7. We can't change other people, we can only change ourselves

8. Humans tend to live in "tribes" excluding those not in their tribe

9. Religion is in fact opium for the masses

10. Most humans regret the choices they made when the end arrives

I posted this in philosophy because it is YOUR philosophy that likely will dictate which statements you argee with or not agree with.

And yes, I realize, each statement needs more "nuance", but that is where YOU come in, to provide the nuance that reflects your answers. Enjoy.

1. Similar, not the same.
2. Partly
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Yes, but...
6. Yes and no
7. Yes and no
8. Agree
9. Agree
10. ? Not there yet

 

[NatMorton]

Fair enough. The question is, what exactly is "favorable"? Survival of the fittest? Complexity? Individual fitness for survival is obviously a key factor, but the enormous tail of the male peacock is a serious drawback in that regard. Apparently its benefit in reproduction has outweighed that disadvantage in individual survival fitness.

Survival of the fittest is accurate enough. More accurate is he who leaves the most genes in the next generation wins.

 

[DCCougar]

This has been agreed for a long time now. Nature not nurture is dominate and it's not close.

Huh. News to me. Any peer-reviewed studies reaching this conclusion? Of course genetics determines the physical -- eye and hair color, height, etc. -- but personality? Musical ability? Good at sports? These skills are for the most part acquired, not innate, IMO.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

1. Similar, not the same.
2. Partly
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Yes, but...
6. Yes and no
7. Yes and no
8. Agree
9. Agree
10. ? Not there yet

11. Concise

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Except for disabilities or deformities, I'd say yes. But seconds after birth, everyone's experience is different and begins to diverge.

By same I meant with an empty slate. All born without prejudices or attitudes. All born with red blood too.