-Demosthenes-
Internet Revolutionist
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2005
- Messages
- 919
- Reaction score
- 7
- Location
- USA
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Conservative
-Demosthenes- said:Africa has been all but destroyed by colonialism and other Western influences. It is full of political turmoil, hunger, and diseases like AIDs. What can we do about this? Should we take over governments that aren't doing well and install new ones? Should we send enormous amounts of money? Is there anything we can do?
Donkey said:What do you mean "Western influences"? I see Africans leading Africans. It ain't our fault that they can't take care of their own people. It's something called RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!
-Demosthenes- said:The take over of parts of Africa by European powers, the "tyranny of the map" the European borders have caused the separated political and culture groups. In parts of Africa were Europeans live they created a two class system where Africans are 2nd class citizens. Colonialism has overall created a great destabilization in Africa, one that continues to this day.
Donkey said:Here we go with the "white man's fault" crap again. Then why don't they do something about it? It's their fault that their people are starving. You can't blame past incidents on present day stuff on this subject. It's like a black man coming up to me on the street and blaming me for his ancestors being slaves. It's like, what the hell did I do?
-Demosthenes- said:Not at all. I don't think that the "white man" did anything as a collective whole. That's a rather racist idea. But Western European powers did damage and destabilize the situation in Africa. I'm not saying we have a responsibility to help the people who did it are all dead now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help if we can, does it?
-Demosthenes- said:Africa has been all but destroyed by colonialism and other Western influences. It is full of political turmoil, hunger, and diseases like AIDs. What can we do about this? Should we take over governments that aren't doing well and install new ones? Should we send enormous amounts of money? Is there anything we can do?
-Demosthenes- said:The take over of parts of Africa by European powers, the "tyranny of the map" the European borders have caused the separated political and culture groups. In parts of Africa were Europeans live they created a two class system where Africans are 2nd class citizens. Colonialism has overall created a great destabilization in Africa, one that continues to this day.
Nero said:While i agree with you 100% that the situation in Africa is the wests fault, you haven't exactly given a reason why that means we should help them out. The west gains alot from keeping africa as it is, what interest do we have helping them out.
Morals? In international politics? don't make me laugh. The only goal a country has is to further the interests of its Civilians as much as possible, anything else is a breach of contract.Red_Dave said:A Moral one?
Nero said:Morals? In international politics? don't make me laugh. The only goal a country has is to further the interests of its Civilians as much as possible, anything else is a breach of contract.
Red_Dave said:Well unless your some sort of Nihilist you will except that we have a moral responsibilty for our own actions. I dont see why the same principle doest apply to governments. I dont see why a country should meet the needs of its citizens at the expence of others, indeed that seams a bit nonsensical to me as this inevitably leads to conflict. Its that sort of attitude that led to european colonialism and two world wars. The fact that these historical events where not particually productive surgests to me that a more progressive attitude towards these things is needed.
Nero said:While i agree with you that a person must take responsibility for his/her own action i see no reason why a person must take responsibility for the action of his ancestors over which he had no control. Furthermore while not a Nhilist i do beleive that morality is derived only from agreement of both parties, in other words you have no moral duty were there was no commitment. In the case of international politics the colonial powers were bound by no agreement with Africa and therefor owed them nothing.
-Demosthenes- said:Maybe not, but why not help those out who need help?
There are many reasons not too:
1. Its extremly expensive, the west has so far thrown billions into africa with little or no results.
2.Cost in manpower. In africa currently there are hundreds of tiny wars and to even begin rehabilitation these areas must be pacified.
3.Loss of cheap easy exploitable workforce.
4.We would have to pay full price for resources we aquire now nearly free.
In general most material practical reasons speak against helping them. the reasons in favor of helping them tend to be sentimental, the value of which i am debating now with dave.
-Demosthenes- said:1 and 2) You can have the opinion that it's worth it.
3 and 4) These are in no way immoral?
Nero said:Like i said to red dave before, morality is not an issue on the international plane specificly becuase both sides have not agreed on the laws of morality. Furthermore we are not talking about morality through action, we are talking about morality of inaction and in this case the obligation to prove cause for action is on the actor. In other words we are not talking about acting imoraly on the basis of a part of the countrys take on morality. The only way the US could act in this case without reneging on its agreement to its own citizenry is if there is unanimity in the states on the morality of intervention which you will never have.
yeah, thats what ive been saying.-Demosthenes- said:States don't have to act morally?
Medussa said:Oooh you might not like this...
Money is not the solution, the mismanagement of funds and corruption is basically everywhere. Very bad move to pour money into countries, it will not go to the poor rural people who really need it.
In SA racial issues is still a big part of everyday life. We know it, we live it and we deal with it. And well... Americans are not really loved over here, the people are a bit more tolerant of Europeans.
Aids... oh this is a fun topic. Culture and African religions overrule ALL medical views/advice. I'm going to give a rough translation of a view in regards to condoms "Meat with meat, not meat with plastic", so that one does hamper the well advertised slogan of "Don't compromise.. condomise". Very contradictory I know...
In regards to water, I work for the government department that works with both water and forestry issues, water is a huge problem. Huge! The middle and upper class basically finances all the water and sanitation needs of the squatter camps/locations/illegal settlements etc. Plus.. let's not forget the multitude of illegal immigrants that we get. Though I know that you're probably marking more to central african countries, still i'm just as part of Africa as any other African.
Medussa said:Thank you.
SA looks very good in comparison to Zim, Burundi, Rwanda etc... Our biggest struggles are crime, corruption and aids. The battle with aids is a crippeling matter and it is affecting our economy on a large scale. The number of aids orphans are increasing at an alarming pace. People receive monthly grants for being HIV positive, for some it's actually a way to get an income.
http://www.pactworld.org/programs/country/south_africa/south_africa_rrm.htm
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