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What do we do about Africa?

-Demosthenes-

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Africa has been all but destroyed by colonialism and other Western influences. It is full of political turmoil, hunger, and diseases like AIDs. What can we do about this? Should we take over governments that aren't doing well and install new ones? Should we send enormous amounts of money? Is there anything we can do?
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Africa has been all but destroyed by colonialism and other Western influences. It is full of political turmoil, hunger, and diseases like AIDs. What can we do about this? Should we take over governments that aren't doing well and install new ones? Should we send enormous amounts of money? Is there anything we can do?
What do you mean "Western influences"? I see Africans leading Africans. It ain't our fault that they can't take care of their own people. It's something called RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!
 

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Donkey said:
What do you mean "Western influences"? I see Africans leading Africans. It ain't our fault that they can't take care of their own people. It's something called RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!
The take over of parts of Africa by European powers, the "tyranny of the map" the European borders have caused the separated political and culture groups. In parts of Africa were Europeans live they created a two class system where Africans are 2nd class citizens. Colonialism has overall created a great destabilization in Africa, one that continues to this day.
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
The take over of parts of Africa by European powers, the "tyranny of the map" the European borders have caused the separated political and culture groups. In parts of Africa were Europeans live they created a two class system where Africans are 2nd class citizens. Colonialism has overall created a great destabilization in Africa, one that continues to this day.
Here we go with the "white man's fault" crap again. Then why don't they do something about it? It's their fault that their people are starving. You can't blame past incidents on present day stuff on this subject. It's like a black man coming up to me on the street and blaming me for his ancestors being slaves. It's like, what the hell did I do?
 

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Donkey said:
Here we go with the "white man's fault" crap again. Then why don't they do something about it? It's their fault that their people are starving. You can't blame past incidents on present day stuff on this subject. It's like a black man coming up to me on the street and blaming me for his ancestors being slaves. It's like, what the hell did I do?
Not at all. I don't think that the "white man" did anything as a collective whole. That's a rather racist idea. But Western European powers did damage and destabilize the situation in Africa. I'm not saying we have a responsibility to help the people who did it are all dead now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help if we can, does it?
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Not at all. I don't think that the "white man" did anything as a collective whole. That's a rather racist idea. But Western European powers did damage and destabilize the situation in Africa. I'm not saying we have a responsibility to help the people who did it are all dead now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't help if we can, does it?
We're dropping rubbers like crazy over there. Ain't that enough? :mrgreen:
 

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Apparently not, it's not getting any better really.
 

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There actually still is "white man's crap" going on - the international aids industry has been fooling around in africa for decades, and has been a complete failure, due to its PC obsession with condoms. By contrast, Uganda, shunning the international aids industry has successfully instituted the "ABC" program - Abstinence, Be faithful, Condoms. The $15 billion of taxpayer money Bush threw into the african aids rathole will disappear with no effect. One feels very sorry for the africans - they are mostly doomed.
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Africa has been all but destroyed by colonialism and other Western influences. It is full of political turmoil, hunger, and diseases like AIDs. What can we do about this? Should we take over governments that aren't doing well and install new ones? Should we send enormous amounts of money? Is there anything we can do?
What western nations need to do is reform economic policies that damge the third world. By changeing these policies we can allow the continent to work its way out of poverty. For example its often the case that organisations like the World Bank force african nations to liberalise there economys by refusing to cancel there debt or give them aid. This is damageing in a number of ways.

For one thing its often better to keep some industrys nationalised. Water is a good example of this as its a scarce resource that needs to be provided as cheaply and efficiently as possible. As a result of the World Bank many governments have been forced to privitise there water industry leaving it under the control of westen mulinationals. This has often made water harder to get hold of.

Another related problem is that some contrys are forced to abandon protectionist policies. This is often damageing to farmers who find them selves having to compete with heavily subsidised E.U and U.S goods. These farmers often have trouble selling there goods to the U.S and E.U due to ridiculosly high tarrifs so the result is grosely unjust.

Those farmers working for mulinationals also have a major problem in that they tend to be paid a pittance this could be changed by a change in western economic poilcy.

Ild advocate,

1 Cutting E.U and U.S subsidies.

2Changeing the conditions that the World Bank gives for debt relief so that african countrys can choose there own economic policys.

3 Putting pressure on mulinationals to pay there workers a fair price.

4 Clicking the link "Global call to action against poverty in my signature. :mrgreen:
 

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I've read some stuff about de Soto's idea to give these people property rights, and recognize squatter's rights. The poor of these countries would have trillions of dollars in land, and a means to act on the economy.
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
The take over of parts of Africa by European powers, the "tyranny of the map" the European borders have caused the separated political and culture groups. In parts of Africa were Europeans live they created a two class system where Africans are 2nd class citizens. Colonialism has overall created a great destabilization in Africa, one that continues to this day.
While i agree with you 100% that the situation in Africa is the wests fault, you haven't exactly given a reason why that means we should help them out. The west gains alot from keeping africa as it is, what interest do we have helping them out.
 

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Nero said:
While i agree with you 100% that the situation in Africa is the wests fault, you haven't exactly given a reason why that means we should help them out. The west gains alot from keeping africa as it is, what interest do we have helping them out.
A Moral one?
 

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Red_Dave said:
A Moral one?
Morals? In international politics? don't make me laugh. The only goal a country has is to further the interests of its Civilians as much as possible, anything else is a breach of contract.
 

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Nero said:
Morals? In international politics? don't make me laugh. The only goal a country has is to further the interests of its Civilians as much as possible, anything else is a breach of contract.
Well unless your some sort of Nihilist you will except that we have a moral responsibilty for our own actions. I dont see why the same principle doest apply to governments. I dont see why a country should meet the needs of its citizens at the expence of others, indeed that seams a bit nonsensical to me as this inevitably leads to conflict. Its that sort of attitude that led to european colonialism and two world wars. The fact that these historical events where not particually productive surgests to me that a more progressive attitude towards these things is needed.
 

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Red_Dave said:
Well unless your some sort of Nihilist you will except that we have a moral responsibilty for our own actions. I dont see why the same principle doest apply to governments. I dont see why a country should meet the needs of its citizens at the expence of others, indeed that seams a bit nonsensical to me as this inevitably leads to conflict. Its that sort of attitude that led to european colonialism and two world wars. The fact that these historical events where not particually productive surgests to me that a more progressive attitude towards these things is needed.
While i agree with you that a person must take responsibility for his/her own action i see no reason why a person must take responsibility for the action of his ancestors over which he had no control. Furthermore while not a Nhilist i do beleive that morality is derived only from agreement of both parties, in other words you have no moral duty were there was no commitment. In the case of international politics the colonial powers were bound by no agreement with Africa and therefor owed them nothing.

The reason a country need only act in the intereset of its citizens is derived from the previus paragraph. The citizen body binds itself to the state through civil contract for the sole purpose of protecting the citizen body. Its like in Hobbes and Rossous story of beggening of state, the citizens bind themselfs to mutual law and in return have peace. Citizens of one country have no such accord with citizens of another country and therefor can do whatever they please.

Furthermore as to the alligation that it inevitabky leads to conflict. We are dealing with a case of europe and Africa and in this specific case it did advance europe and was therefor profitable to its citizens making the straregy very usefull. You gave an example of Strong vs Strong while this is clearly a case of Strong vs Weak.
 

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Nero said:
While i agree with you that a person must take responsibility for his/her own action i see no reason why a person must take responsibility for the action of his ancestors over which he had no control. Furthermore while not a Nhilist i do beleive that morality is derived only from agreement of both parties, in other words you have no moral duty were there was no commitment. In the case of international politics the colonial powers were bound by no agreement with Africa and therefor owed them nothing.
Maybe not, but why not help those out who need help?
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Maybe not, but why not help those out who need help?
There are many reasons not too:

1. Its extremly expensive, the west has so far thrown billions into africa with little or no results.

2.Cost in manpower. In africa currently there are hundreds of tiny wars and to even begin rehabilitation these areas must be pacified.

3.Loss of cheap easy exploitable workforce.

4.We would have to pay full price for resources we aquire now nearly free.


In general most material practical reasons speak against helping them. the reasons in favor of helping them tend to be sentimental, the value of which i am debating now with dave.
 

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There are many reasons not too:

1. Its extremly expensive, the west has so far thrown billions into africa with little or no results.

2.Cost in manpower. In africa currently there are hundreds of tiny wars and to even begin rehabilitation these areas must be pacified.

3.Loss of cheap easy exploitable workforce.

4.We would have to pay full price for resources we aquire now nearly free.


In general most material practical reasons speak against helping them. the reasons in favor of helping them tend to be sentimental, the value of which i am debating now with dave.
1 and 2) You can have the opinion that it's worth it.

3 and 4) These are in no way immoral?
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
1 and 2) You can have the opinion that it's worth it.

3 and 4) These are in no way immoral?
Like i said to red dave before, morality is not an issue on the international plane specificly becuase both sides have not agreed on the laws of morality. Furthermore we are not talking about morality through action, we are talking about morality of inaction and in this case the obligation to prove cause for action is on the actor. In other words we are not talking about acting imoraly on the basis of a part of the countrys take on morality. The only way the US could act in this case without reneging on its agreement to its own citizenry is if there is unanimity in the states on the morality of intervention which you will never have.
 

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Nero said:
Like i said to red dave before, morality is not an issue on the international plane specificly becuase both sides have not agreed on the laws of morality. Furthermore we are not talking about morality through action, we are talking about morality of inaction and in this case the obligation to prove cause for action is on the actor. In other words we are not talking about acting imoraly on the basis of a part of the countrys take on morality. The only way the US could act in this case without reneging on its agreement to its own citizenry is if there is unanimity in the states on the morality of intervention which you will never have.
States don't have to act morally?
 

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Oooh you might not like this...

Money is not the solution, the mismanagement of funds and corruption is basically everywhere. Very bad move to pour money into countries, it will not go to the poor rural people who really need it.

In SA racial issues is still a big part of everyday life. We know it, we live it and we deal with it. And well... Americans are not really loved over here, the people are a bit more tolerant of Europeans.

Aids... oh this is a fun topic. Culture and African religions overrule ALL medical views/advice. I'm going to give a rough translation of a view in regards to condoms "Meat with meat, not meat with plastic", so that one does hamper the well advertised slogan of "Don't compromise.. condomise". Very contradictory I know...

In regards to water, I work for the government department that works with both water and forestry issues, water is a huge problem. Huge! The middle and upper class basically finances all the water and sanitation needs of the squatter camps/locations/illegal settlements etc. Plus.. let's not forget the multitude of illegal immigrants that we get. Though I know that you're probably marking more to central african countries, still i'm just as part of Africa as any other African.
 
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Medussa said:
Oooh you might not like this...

Money is not the solution, the mismanagement of funds and corruption is basically everywhere. Very bad move to pour money into countries, it will not go to the poor rural people who really need it.

In SA racial issues is still a big part of everyday life. We know it, we live it and we deal with it. And well... Americans are not really loved over here, the people are a bit more tolerant of Europeans.

Aids... oh this is a fun topic. Culture and African religions overrule ALL medical views/advice. I'm going to give a rough translation of a view in regards to condoms "Meat with meat, not meat with plastic", so that one does hamper the well advertised slogan of "Don't compromise.. condomise". Very contradictory I know...

In regards to water, I work for the government department that works with both water and forestry issues, water is a huge problem. Huge! The middle and upper class basically finances all the water and sanitation needs of the squatter camps/locations/illegal settlements etc. Plus.. let's not forget the multitude of illegal immigrants that we get. Though I know that you're probably marking more to central african countries, still i'm just as part of Africa as any other African.
Well said Medussa...

The only place in Africa I've spent much time in was Senegal..(3 weeks)
The people treated me very well and from what I saw for my own eyes I wish the rest of the continent could live that life.
 

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Thank you.

SA looks very good in comparison to Zim, Burundi, Rwanda etc... Our biggest struggles are crime, corruption and aids. The battle with aids is a crippeling matter and it is affecting our economy on a large scale. The number of aids orphans are increasing at an alarming pace. People receive monthly grants for being HIV positive, for some it's actually a way to get an income.

http://www.pactworld.org/programs/country/south_africa/south_africa_rrm.htm
 

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Medussa said:
Thank you.

SA looks very good in comparison to Zim, Burundi, Rwanda etc... Our biggest struggles are crime, corruption and aids. The battle with aids is a crippeling matter and it is affecting our economy on a large scale. The number of aids orphans are increasing at an alarming pace. People receive monthly grants for being HIV positive, for some it's actually a way to get an income.

http://www.pactworld.org/programs/country/south_africa/south_africa_rrm.htm
I agree....
Let me ask you something and you can PM me with your reply if you dont feel like posting in public.

Its hard for people who have never been outside the US to understand whats going on elsewhere in the world.. With you being there seeing it everyday what would you do if you had all the power to make any changes you wished?


Africa has so much to offer the world but its controlled by so very few...
 
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