What can be done about this recent epidemic of blatant mass shoplifting?

[Surrealistik]

Do you even know what an anecdote is?

In this context:

Anecdote - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The point is that individual stories/accounts do not convincingly illustrate a broader overarching problem. You would need a demonstrable trend for that such as via aggregate numbers/statistics, and one, to my knowledge at least, having looked for them, simply does not yet exist.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Apparently not everywhere, or this thread topic wouldn't exist.

It depends on the community, and the state laws.

I already gave several examples of this in California. Even though the state has laws that prevent most real prosecution, many cities still use arrest and incarceration until arraignment as a way to deter them in their community. But all that does is cause them to move to other communities that are not that strict, it does not actually solve the problem.

That is why when I did LP, our biggest tool was California PC 602, which is a formal trespass notice. Once one of those had been given to them and a copy to the police, even being inside the store means they will be immediately arrested even if they are doing nothing. And a 602 is one of those offenses that results in their going immediately to jail, and carries a sentence of up to six months. And when it is a formal written notice, most judges will sentence them to at least three months, even for a first offense.

And it is not all that far off from violating a restraining order, so the courts do take violations of those seriously. When somebody goes as far as to give a legal written notice and files it with the court that they are not allowed to return, the courts take that seriously. Even in towns where the cops would almost never show up when called, they would show up if I called for a PC 602 violation because they had no choice. And the person will be going to jail, once again because the cop has no choice. It is one of the offenses that results in a mandatory arrest, and incarceration until they see a judge.

 

[hecatmoggie]

what can be done is reverse this ridiculous concept of letting people steal stuff and being victims

until that stops, the crime will keep getting more and more

they're acting like animals and they're allowed to do it ..... until they're stopped they'll continue

 

[thinkingoutloud]

Four suspects arrested after Georgia Lululemon robbery, employees fired after confronting looters

Two employees who were fired for calling police.

thepostmillennial.com

This is getting so bad. Here is yet another incident where people just blatantly walk in and leave with tons of expensive stuff. 2 employees were FIRED for following them out to get their license plate and call the cops. Yes, I know it was "store policy" to not interfere with the thieves in any way, but soon we may not have brick and mortar stores to shop at anymore. Insurance companies may stop including theft when writing business insurance policies. If I was in the insurance business I certainly wouldn't. These policies like prop 47 in California that makes it a slap on the wrist if you steal less than $900 worth of goods, and bleeding heart D.A.'s who won't prosecute this shit just emboldens this type of behavior, and probably creates even more criminals, who of course start out small potatoes like this, and then start commiting more serious crimes when they see that they can get away with it.

Go after the people who are fencing the goods. It's mostly not what it looks like on the surface.
Here is another issue that mostly blacks get blamed for:

Californians plead guilty in $600 million nationwide catalytic converter theft scheme​

 

[JRTurner]

As I already know the difference, and I have done both.

Share with the class. What is your understanding of the differences between a security guard and a loss prevention specialist?

 

[JRTurner]

"And what type of thieves are we actually prosecuting and jailing when room in the jails is made for them?"

I asked this question because I was curious as to what type of thieves you would consider for jail time.

Depends on the circumstances. A teenager stealing tampons--not so much. A thirty year old car jacker with pockets full of high-end jewelry--yeah.

What about you? What types of thieves do you consider should go to jail?

 

[JRTurner]

Any reference to show they stopped hiring security guards?

And guards are only a deterrent, they do not actually stop shoplifters.

Yes they do. LPS do not.

 

[JRTurner]

Oh, I know the difference. I worked in the security field for many years.

And what you are saying is almost nonsensical. You claim that it is a rare thing for a store to hire the former, which obviously is a
bonded and insured security guard" that has the "ability to apprehend". That is literally nonsensical, as I bet you do not even know why a bonded and insured security guard can not stop 90% of shoplifters.

And then you say that the latter, loss prevention specialists are not allowed to apprehend.

By what you just said there, it is clear to me that you really do not have a clue what you are talking about. That is just word vomit that is almost completely nonsensical.

Tell me, do you even know the legal requirements for an individual to make a citizen's arrest? I bet you don't, and apparently you think that only "bonded and insured" security can make an arrest.

I suggest you actually learn the facts, and not just try to dazzle others with your bullcrap.

Only police officers can make an arrest.

Only security guards can detain for the police.

Loss prevention specialists just record the lost inventory and description of the shoplifter.

Provide evidence that the above is inaccurate.

 

[Napoleon]

They don’t fear the consequences. Jail doesn’t scare anyone anymore so we need to up the ante. Mandatory capital punishment may force them to reconsider.

 

[JRTurner]

It depends on the community, and the state laws.

I already gave several examples of this in California. Even though the state has laws that prevent most real prosecution, many cities still use arrest and incarceration until arraignment as a way to deter them in their community. But all that does is cause them to move to other communities that are not that strict, it does not actually solve the problem.

That is why when I did LP, our biggest tool was California PC 602, which is a formal trespass notice. Once one of those had been given to them and a copy to the police, even being inside the store means they will be immediately arrested even if they are doing nothing. And a 602 is one of those offenses that results in their going immediately to jail, and carries a sentence of up to six months. And when it is a formal written notice, most judges will sentence them to at least three months, even for a first offense.

And it is not all that far off from violating a restraining order, so the courts do take violations of those seriously. When somebody goes as far as to give a legal written notice and files it with the court that they are not allowed to return, the courts take that seriously. Even in towns where the cops would almost never show up when called, they would show up if I called for a PC 602 violation because they had no choice. And the person will be going to jail, once again because the cop has no choice. It is one of the offenses that results in a mandatory arrest, and incarceration until they see a judge.

Did you make a citizen's arrest while you waiting for the cops to answer a call for a 602?

 

[JRTurner]

They don’t fear the consequences. Jail doesn’t scare anyone anymore so we need to up the ante. Mandatory capital punishment may force them to reconsider.

You might consider removing "moderate" from your profile if you think police officers want to kill unarmed citizens for stealing hot pockets

 

[dockside]

Which stores are leaving because of shoplifters?

Two Target stores in Seattle come to mind.

 

[JRTurner]

Two Target stores in Seattle come to mind.

That's a shame. I wish they would have kept proper security guards instead. The switch to teens in vests to watch for shoplifters is really hurting a lot of stores.

I don't buy the idea that these major national commercial big box stores can't pressure local law enforcement to show up and arrest shoplifters legally detained by actual security guards. I'm sure Seattle would have responded to the pressure--if it had been applied.

No one (retail, law enforcement, communities, etc.) appears to want to foot the bill for prevention--so now they're all having to deal with the consequences. It's like brushing and flossing--if you say it's cheaper now to just gargle--you'll bear the burden of the expense and pain later down the road--and end up toothless.

 

[Roadvirus]

I'm sure Seattle would have responded to the pressure--if it had been applied.

The same Seattle that let a bunch of assholes take over an entire city block for weeks? That Seattle?

That's so cute.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Yes they do. LPS do not.

That is completely backwards, because at almost no times do security guards even have the required steps required to even perform an arrest.

And yes, AP-LP officers can and do arrest them, because they do have the steps required by law to make an arrest.

It is quite obvious you have never actually been trained in the powers of arrest, or you would know this.

 

[JRTurner]

The same Seattle that let a bunch of assholes take over an entire city block for weeks? That Seattle?

That's so cute.

That was also public pressure at the time--proving they can cave

 

[Oozlefinch]

Only police officers can make an arrest.

Oh, my dear sweet summer child. How wrong you are.

For how it applied to me, that was covered under California Penal Code 837.

A private person may arrest another:

1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.

2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.

3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

If you think that only a police officer can arrest another, you are screaming your actual ignorance of the law. I have arrested hundreds of people. I even laughed as I put people in handcuffs as they were screaming I was not allowed to arrest them because I was not a cop.

You really do not have any idea of what you are saying, and that is obvious. You are getting almost every aspect wrong, or completely backwards.

Tell me, as I have hinted at it several times already. Why can an AP-LP officer arrest somebody for shoplifting, but a security guard can almost never do so? I bet you do not have a freaking clue, which is why your trying to sound authoritative is so damned funny.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I don't buy the idea that these major national commercial big box stores can't pressure local law enforcement to show up and arrest shoplifters legally detained by actual security guards.

Uh, when do you see security guard inside a Walmart? And why do you think a security guard would be allowed to legally detain a shoplifter?

 

[JRTurner]

That is completely backwards, because at almost no times do security guards even have the required steps required to even perform an arrest.

Security guards--again--cannot arrest anyone. They can detain for suspicion of shoplifting however.

And yes, AP-LP officers can and do arrest them, because they do have the steps required by law to make an arrest.

Officers? Those are very different than specialists/associates. If they are a sworn officer, that's a different animal.

It is quite obvious you have never actually been trained in the powers of arrest, or you would know this.

It's quite obvious you are unaware that I have nearly completed my degree in criminal justice and have worked retail for over 20 years.

I think we're in a grey area of definitions here. Let me explain my understanding:

A security guard has the right to detain an individual under suspicion of shoplifting to await the police. They can be armed or unarmed. They wear a uniform, have at the very least many hours of training, and usually have to be insurable/bonded for the purpose of lawsuits, etc.

A Loss Prevention Specialist/Associate can be one of two things:
A secretarial person who decides what products become alarmed or are under lock and key, investigate employee and customer theft, and adjust inventory accordingly.
Or an untrained individual wearing a vest at the front door who greets customers, takes the "shortage walk" and records stolen inventory/description of the shoplifter. They are trained by watching a short video on the day of hire, never ever carry a weapon and don't wear a uniform.

A loss prevention OFFICER is more in line with a security GUARD.

None of them, however, can make an arrest. That is wholly different than detaining for the police and only a security OFFICER or GUARD can do such a thing.

I hope my definition help you understand the conversation moving forward

 

[JRTurner]

Oh, my dear sweet summer child. How wrong you are.

For how it applied to me, that was covered under California Penal Code 837.



If you think that only a police officer can arrest another, you are screaming your actual ignorance of the law. I have arrested hundreds of people. I even laughed as I put people in handcuffs as they were screaming I was not allowed to arrest them because I was not a cop.

You really do not have any idea of what you are saying, and that is obvious. You are getting almost every aspect wrong, or completely backwards.

Tell me, as I have hinted at it several times already. Why can an AP-LP officer arrest somebody for shoplifting, but a security guard can almost never do so? I bet you do not have a freaking clue, which is why your trying to sound authoritative is so damned funny.

Any Loss Prevention Associate attempting a citizen's arrest while on duty would be fired immediately.

 

[JRTurner]

Uh, when do you see security guard inside a Walmart?

Never. That's the problem.

And why do you think a security guard would be allowed to legally detain a shoplifter?

I suppose it depends on what the corporate policies are, but in most cases the corporate policies for security guards allow them to detain shoplifters.

Also depends on the state--we wouldn't say Florida is a bastion of progressive policies, but Miami is right up there with San Fran for shoplifting issues. But state laws are very different than corporate policies.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Security guards--again--cannot arrest anyone. They can detain for suspicion of shoplifting however.

Officers? Those are very different than specialists/associates. If they are a sworn officer, that's a different animal.

Once again, word soup.

Oh, and a "security guard" can arrest somebody. Hell, I even quoted California PC 837 for you! Here is is again, in case you did not bother to read it.

A private person may arrest another:

1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.

2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.

3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

So here you are saying a security guard may not arrest somebody, but the California Penal Code quite clearly says that they can. And that is not unique, anybody can arrest anybody. I can arrest you, under the guidelines of PC 837 in the state of California. And every single state in the nation has an almost identical Citizen's Arrest law.

Sorry, you make all these claims, and still avoid basic questions.

Tell me, why can somebody in Loss Prevention arrest somebody, while a Security Guard can not? You claim to have a degree and are a professional in this, so why can a security guard not arrest a shoplifter? You know, this is a really basic thing, anybody that has a Guard Card should be able to answer it without thought. As can anybody that actually did AP-LP for a living. And don't just spin in circles again and avoid it, AP-LP personnel can and do arrest people all the damned time.

Oh, and if you detain somebody, you have made a citizen's arrest. Only law enforcement can detain somebody without making an arrest. They are allowed to detain individuals as they investigate to determine if a crime has happened. A private individual is not allowed to do that. Once again, a Powers of Arrest 101 kind of subject. One you quite clearly have never really studied or had to work under.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I suppose it depends on what the corporate policies are

*BUZZ*

WRONG.

I did not ask "corporate policies", I asked quite clearly "why do you think a security guard would be allowed to legally detain a shoplifter?"

I said not a damned thing about "corporate policy", I was speaking clearly the legal aspects. And you completely avoided answering and went into corporate policy.

So once again, try answering that. Why do you think a security guard would be allowed to legally detain a shoplifter?

 

[bomberfox]

You've got your own, seemingly more pressing problems. You live in one of the most RWE states in the U.S. and
you read the BS web spew of a fascist disinfo web troll.

Human Events - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"..In May 2021, Human Events announced that conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec had been hired as senior editor.[25] In May 2022, Human Events announced that it had acquired The Post Millennial, a Canadian conservative online news magazine.[20]"

They are desperate for clicks

 

[noonereal]

What can be done about this recent epidemic of blatant mass shoplifting?​

Do what I do, just turn the channel.

Recall when wilding was the rage? It was mostly media driven crap. This is the same.

If you want to lose sleep over it, be my guest.