What are your SPECIFIC objections to illegal immigration?

[March]

Be specific, the following reply is not acceptable: "Because they reduce our quality of life." How? In what way? Give examples. Support your argument.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

I'll start off: I support immigration. I think it's healthy for our economy and better for our country. I support labor competition, I think if Americans aren't competitive enough in the job market then it's perfectly fine to use immigrants to do work that Americans aren't willing to do for the same wages. Bottom line, I don't think immigration should be illegal. I think we need to make it much easier for people to come here and work and obtain citizenship. When given the choice between doing it the right way and coming illegally most people would choose doing it the right way unless that proved to be especially difficult, which is the case with current immigration law. I know that because my wife is not from this country. The immigration process is more or less bull****. I've even had colleagues of mine have difficulty getting their citizenship even after deployment and honorable discharge. It's borderline retarded. Example question: "Do you plan to overthrow the United States government?" Yeah that's exactly why I came to this country! Seriously, after 50-60 years do you think there has ever been a "yes" answer to this question?

I believe most of the "problems" associated with illegal immigration could be solved by two simple changes in philosophy:

1) Don't criminalize immigration in the first place
2) End socialist programs

The truth is that most illegal immigrants would choose citizenship if they had the choice. These suckers even want -- overwhelmingly -- to join in on the Social Security ponzi scheme, and the only way to keep this ponzi scheme going is to add new suckers to the system. I say let em in as a solution to both the "illegal immigration" problem and Social Security as well. Let them pay into the ponzi scheme so we can slowly wean people off, they pay in like everyone else my around or near my age, but don't expect to get any benefits when you're older.

Secondly, we end all the socialist programs that seem to be the main point of contention among opponents to illegal immigration. Everything from free education to health care and food stamps, all that **** gots to go. In this country you work for what you got and nobody owes you anything. End socialist minimum wage laws which destroy labor competition in the free market, we don't need the government to "level the playing field." Wages are determined by the market, not governments.

 

[Kal'Stang]

This post confirms that all you want is open borders and automatic citizenship willy nilly. Thank you for confirming this.

Be specific, the following reply is not acceptable: "Because they reduce our quality of life." How? In what way? Give examples. Support your argument.

Actually "Because they reduce our quality of life" is a valid reply. While they certainly don't reduce it by simply being here they do so in indirect means. For one they take up resources. Resources that our country alone does not have an unlimited supply of. As such those resources would be better spent towards citizens or those that are here legally. One such resource is jobs. There are only so many jobs available. By allowing illegals to take those jobs you are taking away jobs from citizens. Which means we have citizens without an income. Without an income people can end up living on the streets. That is a serious lowering of quality of life.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

Very well, I'll stay away from the "because its illegal"...for now.

I'll start off: I support immigration. I think it's healthy for our economy and better for our country.

I support legal immigration too. But I do not support unrestrained legal immigration or illegal immigration as the effects are pretty much the same. Those effects being in the negative. I responded to this in the other thread though so will skip it for now.

I support labor competition, I think if Americans aren't competitive enough in the job market then it's perfectly fine to use immigrants to do work that Americans aren't willing to do for the same wages.

Labor competition is good, I agree. However high unemployment is not a good thing. As such we should restrict labor competition to those that are here legally and are citizens.

By allowing open borders and giving out citizenship willy nilly like you prefer then you will end up with high unemployment. Remember, our country only has a finite amount of jobs available. We can currently barely take care of our country as it stand currently. (assuming of course if there were no illegals in the US) Having open borders and autoatic citizenship while other countries have closed borders and requirements for citizenship would mean that we would have to have jobs in the billions available. That simply is not possible nor feasible.

Bottom line, I don't think immigration should be illegal.

Just quoting this to show the proof that you prefer wide open borders and automatic citizenship.

I think we need to make it much easier for people to come here and work and obtain citizenship. When given the choice between doing it the right way and coming illegally most people would choose doing it the right way unless that proved to be especially difficult, which is the case with current immigration law. I know that because my wife is not from this country. The immigration process is more or less bull****. I've even had colleagues of mine have difficulty getting their citizenship even after deployment and honorable discharge. It's borderline retarded. Example question: "Do you plan to overthrow the United States government?" Yeah that's exactly why I came to this country! Seriously, after 50-60 years do you think there has ever been a "yes" answer to this question?

Your example is only one small fraction of why we must have border restrictions. A very small one. As I have already stated, we do not have an infinite amount of resources. As such immigration must be curbed in order to preserve what resources we do have.

I believe most of the "problems" associated with illegal immigration could be solved by two simple changes in philosophy:

Ok....

1) Don't criminalize immigration in the first place

I've already explained why we need restricted immigration. By its very nature though we will have illegal immigration. Which if allowed to happen is nothing more than having wide open borders. I've already explained why this is a bad thing.

2) End socialist programs

You address this down lower in your post so will respond to your examples as they arise.

The truth is that most illegal immigrants would choose citizenship if they had the choice.

Glad you said most. However I would contend that "most" either don't care if they got citizenship or were against it because they generally hate the US, no doubt to thier own sense of national pride or they just simply hate our government. Indeed I have talked to a few who said that they are entitled to be here due to this was orginally thier land. (Texas area) They hate the fact that it was taken from them and blame the US government for it.

But then again both contentions are nothing more than opinion based on who we have personally dealt with. As such there really is no use debating it.

These suckers even want -- overwhelmingly -- to join in on the Social Security ponzi scheme, and the only way to keep this ponzi scheme going is to add new suckers to the system. I say let em in as a solution to both the "illegal immigration" problem and Social Security as well. Let them pay into the ponzi scheme so we can slowly wean people off, they pay in like everyone else my around or near my age, but don't expect to get any benefits when you're older.

Wait...didn't you say to get rid of all "socialist programs"? *shrug* oh well, doesn't matter.

In anycase the ones that work under the table do not pay into SS. As the majority of illegals work under the table your statement is not entirely accurate.

Secondly, we end all the socialist programs that seem to be the main point of contention among opponents to illegal immigration. Everything from free education to health care and food stamps, all that **** gots to go. In this country you work for what you got and nobody owes you anything.

Free education is a very needed thing. Without free education the only ones that would be able to afford education are those that have money. We would end up no better off than 3rd world countries. All the money consolidated into the hands of a few while the majority barely lives day to day...and even then many would die.

Health care: Good health care prevents sicknesses, which by default also prevents the spread of sicknesses. Which means more people in the workforce which means more money circulating which means a better quality of life...the whole thing really is circular. But true none the less.

As for food stamps...without it those that did not have jobs due to not enough available job market would die of starvation. We're suppose to be civilized....which means we try our best to make sure our citizens do not starve to death.

End socialist minimum wage laws which destroy labor competition in the free market, we don't need the government to "level the playing field." Wages are determined by the market, not governments.

Yep...cause all them sweatshops were a good thing to have huh? Don't understand where that came from? Simple. One of the reasons to enact minimum wage laws was to force employers to giving everyone decent wages which would end sweat shops for the simple fact that no one would work in a sweatshop when down the corner there is someone willing to pay the same amount but with less the hassle. A good example of what it is like without a minimum wage law is to look at China. They still have child sweatshops....yeah...free market with no reins is a good thing. :wink wink:

Ok, 2:30AM here...time for bed.

 

[lpast]

Im against illegal immigration, uh, because its illegal DUH. Im against illegal immigration because we have no responsibilty to feed cloth and give medical care thats breaking our backs to any illegal immigrant because their country WONT....Im against illegal immigration because we cant afford it and the CRIME and the costs of incarceration for THOSE CRIMES...March I truly dont understand how you can come to the conclusions you have...its baffling

 

[March]

Actually "Because they reduce our quality of life" is a valid reply.

Not by itself it isn't. Thankfully, you demonstrated that by elaborating. You deserve a pat on the back for following direction this once.

While they certainly don't reduce it by simply being here they do so in indirect means. For one they take up resources. Resources that our country alone does not have an unlimited supply of. As such those resources would be better spent towards citizens or those that are here legally. One such resource is jobs. There are only so many jobs available. By allowing illegals to take those jobs you are taking away jobs from citizens. Which means we have citizens without an income. Without an income people can end up living on the streets. That is a serious lowering of quality of life.

I don't see any evidence that illegal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans. I believe those jobs wouldn't exist at all without the illegal immigrants to fill them. I believe Americans are unwilling to do the same kind of work for the same wages as illegal immigrants, which is why they wouldn't exist.

Very well, I'll stay away from the "because its illegal"...for now.

Labor competition is good, I agree. However high unemployment is not a good thing. As such we should restrict labor competition to those that are here legally and are citizens.

By allowing open borders and giving out citizenship willy nilly like you prefer then you will end up with high unemployment. Remember, our country only has a finite amount of jobs available. We can currently barely take care of our country as it stand currently. (assuming of course if there were no illegals in the US) Having open borders and autoatic citizenship while other countries have closed borders and requirements for citizenship would mean that we would have to have jobs in the billions available. That simply is not possible nor feasible.

I don't agree that unemployment is as high as it is because "there are no jobs." I believe that illegal immigrants are simply willing to do jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. I believe a lot of Americans would rather sit around and collect an unemployment check than work in a field for example. I believe many Americans feel they are "above" certain jobs, and so would rather stay on unemployment than work for less than what they previously earned.

Your argument doesn't make sense either because if there were no jobs why the hell would illegal immigrants come to this country? Answer: there are jobs, plenty of them. It's just that only illegal immigrants are willing to do them. If these unemployed Americans were really looking for jobs then the illegals would come to this country only to find that all the jobs are already taken by Americans -- which is not the case. Instead they see that Americans aren't willing to do those jobs, giving them a competitive advantage over Americans.

Just quoting this to show the proof that you prefer wide open borders and automatic citizenship.

For what purpose, exactly?

Your example is only one small fraction of why we must have border restrictions. A very small one. As I have already stated, we do not have an infinite amount of resources. As such immigration must be curbed in order to preserve what resources we do have.

Which resources? I've already debunked your "jobs" nonsense, if those are the "resources" you're talking about then they are wasted resources and illegal immigrants are putting them to good use.

Glad you said most. However I would contend that "most" either don't care if they got citizenship or were against it because they generally hate the US, no doubt to thier own sense of national pride or they just simply hate our government. Indeed I have talked to a few who said that they are entitled to be here due to this was orginally thier land. (Texas area) They hate the fact that it was taken from them and blame the US government for it.

But then again both contentions are nothing more than opinion based on who we have personally dealt with. As such there really is no use debating it.

I'm calling total bull**** on that one and you're obviously not someone who is familiar with the immigration process and has never dealt with USCIS. I've worked with so many (illegal) mexicans in my life I don't even have to pretend. They all want citizenship, all of them. These suckers even want to be a part of Social Security. The problem is that it's difficult to obtain citizenship, very difficult. It's a lot of bull****, a lot of paperwork, and a lot of money. Plus we have differing standards and different quotas more or less based on an outdated racist system. And besides that -- they can't! If they tried to apply for citizenship the first question on there is "did you enter this country illegally" which automatically disqualifies your application.

It's clear that your primary source of information comes from websites (probably anti-immigration websites) and youtube videos, not actual experience. If you've ever met an illegal Mexican here in the United States who didn't want citizenship, I'd like to meet him, because he's the only one in the world. This is like how I am able to detect whether or not somebody has deployed before. Easy to spot a bull****ter, very easy.

Wait...didn't you say to get rid of all "socialist programs"? *shrug* oh well, doesn't matter.

In anycase the ones that work under the table do not pay into SS. As the majority of illegals work under the table your statement is not entirely accurate.

Yes I did and I'll explain it for you. Social Security can't simply be "ended" outright because old people now who paid into the system their whole lives actually need and depend on it. It has to be phased out, with younger workers given the understanding that though they are paying into the system they will not be recieving anything from it, and should make other arrangements for retirement.

Secondly, illegal immigrants wouldn't have to work under the table if they were citizens.

Free education is a very needed thing. Without free education the only ones that would be able to afford education are those that have money. We would end up no better off than 3rd world countries. All the money consolidated into the hands of a few while the majority barely lives day to day...and even then many would die.

Health care: Good health care prevents sicknesses, which by default also prevents the spread of sicknesses. Which means more people in the workforce which means more money circulating which means a better quality of life...the whole thing really is circular. But true none the less.

As for food stamps...without it those that did not have jobs due to not enough available job market would die of starvation. We're suppose to be civilized....which means we try our best to make sure our citizens do not starve to death.

All of these statements are false. The current education system is unnecessary and based upon an antiquated factory worker/farmer lifestyle that doesn't apply today, but that's for a different topic. Health care doesn't have to be funded by the government either, and in fact that's the biggest reason it's so expensive in the first place is because of government intervention - but that is also another topic. And finally, no, people would not "starve to death" without food stamps. They would be forced to, *gasp* seek help from the church, family, and friends!

Yep...cause all them sweatshops were a good thing to have huh? Don't understand where that came from? Simple. One of the reasons to enact minimum wage laws was to force employers to giving everyone decent wages which would end sweat shops for the simple fact that no one would work in a sweatshop when down the corner there is someone willing to pay the same amount but with less the hassle. A good example of what it is like without a minimum wage law is to look at China. They still have child sweatshops....yeah...free market with no reins is a good thing. :wink wink:

Your fundamental misunderstanding of minimum wage laws and the industrial revolution is not surprising, probably a result of your free public non-education. Minimum wage laws kill jobs, they do not increase the standard of living. Wages were already rising when the first minimum wage laws were enacted, they had begun a steady increase long before the government stepped in.

Question: Why do you suppose it is that most people don't earn minimum wage? Why on Earth would most employers pay greater than minimum wage if they could pay everyone just the minimum wage? Well? Think about it, is your argument valid or well thought out? I don't think so.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I am against illegal immigration because immigrants are not Americans, and we have both a right and a legitimate interest in deciding whom we allow to reside in this country and whom we allow to join our nation. Illegal immigrants bypass the criteria we have established for allowing people to come here and subvert our national sovereignty.

 

[March]

Im against illegal immigration, uh, because its illegal DUH.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

Im against illegal immigration because we have no responsibilty to feed cloth and give medical care thats breaking our backs to any illegal immigrant because their country WONT....Im against illegal immigration because we cant afford it and the CRIME and the costs of incarceration for THOSE CRIMES...March I truly dont understand how you can come to the conclusions you have...its baffling

What if you didn't have to feed, cloth, and give medical care to illegal immigrants, but rather they provided their own? Then would you still oppose it? What if we remove the costs of incarceration and enforcement from the picture (granting citizenship)? Would you still it oppose it then?

 

[March]

I am against illegal immigration because immigrants are not Americans, and we have both a right and a legitimate interest in deciding whom we allow to reside in this country and whom we allow to join our nation. Illegal immigrants bypass the criteria we have established for allowing people to come here and subvert our national sovereignty.

Ok, so do you have a problem with changing that criteria so that less people attempt to bypass it, or....?

 

[lpast]

What if you didn't have to feed, cloth, and give medical care to illegal immigrants, but rather they provided their own? Then would you still oppose it? What if we remove the costs of incarceration and enforcement from the picture (granting citizenship)? Would you still it oppose it then?

Cmon march stay within the realm of realism please...

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Ok, so do you have a problem with changing that criteria so that less people attempt to bypass it, or....?

Yes. We don't want these people because we don't want them; they're not unwanted because they're illegal, they're illegal because they're unwanted. Changing the law is just as bad as tolerating them breaking it.

 

[Kal'Stang]

I don't see any evidence that illegal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans. I believe those jobs wouldn't exist at all without the illegal immigrants to fill them. I believe Americans are unwilling to do the same kind of work for the same wages as illegal immigrants, which is why they wouldn't exist.

What creates jobs? Demand. The demand for food always exists. The demand for workers to harvest that food is always there. Whether illegals are around or not. Your belief that those jobs wouldn't exist without illegals to fill them is preposterous. Same goes for any other job that illegals do.

I don't agree that unemployment is as high as it is because "there are no jobs." I believe that illegal immigrants are simply willing to do jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. I believe a lot of Americans would rather sit around and collect an unemployment check than work in a field for example. I believe many Americans feel they are "above" certain jobs, and so would rather stay on unemployment than work for less than what they previously earned.

You've been listening to too much propganda. 1: Even with the extensions that Obama and Company have given out unemployment does not last forever. Anyone with even the slightest of brains would do all that they can to find a job before thier unemployment checks ran out for that simple fact. 2: I myself have worked every single job that I have heard of an illegal having. That alone disproves your belief.

Your argument doesn't make sense either because if there were no jobs why the hell would illegal immigrants come to this country? Answer: there are jobs, plenty of them. It's just that only illegal immigrants are willing to do them. If these unemployed Americans were really looking for jobs then the illegals would come to this country only to find that all the jobs are already taken by Americans -- which is not the case. Instead they see that Americans aren't willing to do those jobs, giving them a competitive advantage over Americans.

You are basing your arguement on today's standards with today's laws and restrictions. What you have admitted to wanting is open borders and pretty much automatic citizenship. Under that arguement is where I have placed my reasoning. It is literally impossible to employ everyone. But by having open borders and automatic citizenship that is what you would want...to get everyone employed in the US. If it was possible then there would be no such thing as unemployment.

For what purpose, exactly?

So you may not try to limit or change your stance later on claiming that you really meant <insert whatever here>

Which resources? I've already debunked your "jobs" nonsense, if those are the "resources" you're talking about then they are wasted resources and illegal immigrants are putting them to good use.

No actually you have not debunked anything yet. Other than tout your beliefs. But hey, there's plenty of other resources out there. Food, medical supplies, land, housing, doctors available in any give time of day/night....I could go on and on. Simple fact that we do not have enough resources to take care of the world. Which is what you suggest by wanting open borders and automatic citizenship. One country cannot support the whole world.

I'm calling total bull**** on that one and you're obviously not someone who is familiar with the immigration process and has never dealt with USCIS. I've worked with so many (illegal) mexicans in my life I don't even have to pretend. They all want citizenship, all of them. These suckers even want to be a part of Social Security. The problem is that it's difficult to obtain citizenship, very difficult. It's a lot of bull****, a lot of paperwork, and a lot of money. Plus we have differing standards and different quotas more or less based on an outdated racist system. And besides that -- they can't! If they tried to apply for citizenship the first question on there is "did you enter this country illegally" which automatically disqualifies your application.

You're right, I've never had to deal with the immigration process. Because I'm a citizen that is not in that line of work. But seriously, our immigration process is not near as harsh as other countries. Hell Mexico itself has stricter policies.

Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years' imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years' imprisonment.

Read more at the Washington Examiner

It's clear that your primary source of information comes from websites (probably anti-immigration websites) and youtube videos, not actual experience. If you've ever met an illegal Mexican here in the United States who didn't want citizenship, I'd like to meet him, because he's the only one in the world. This is like how I am able to detect whether or not somebody has deployed before. Easy to spot a bull****ter, very easy.

Even though I have not dealt with the immigration process I certainly have dealt with illegal aliens. In the area that I live in you can often find and talk to illegals at the tree nursery farms. I've worked right next to them. Also despite your belief of me going to anti-immigration sites you would be incorrect. About the only sites I goto are various news sites and forums. Occasionally I'll go to other sites for information when a forum discussion requires it. My most common forums are space and political sites. I've also gone to racial sites to get an idea of why they think the way that they do. Ive been to white pride sites, brown pride sites, black pride sites, even one asian pride site. The ones that I talked to that did not want to stay here and become citizens in fact were those from a brown pride forum that called anyone that was anti-illegal immigration racists, nazi's, and many other names in the book. No matter how you tried to debate them.

In anycase your perception is obviously based on those that you have dealt with...which if you deal in the USCIS wuold obviously be dealing with only those that do want citizenship. Someone that doesn't want to become a citizen will obviously avoid trying to become a citizen. Which means you don't deal with those people. Your experiance is one sided.

Yes I did and I'll explain it for you. Social Security can't simply be "ended" outright because old people now who paid into the system their whole lives actually need and depend on it. It has to be phased out, with younger workers given the understanding that though they are paying into the system they will not be recieving anything from it, and should make other arrangements for retirement.

Why should the younger ones have to pay into anything when they are not going to recieve services from it? Now don't get me wrong, ending SS has its pro's and con's. As such I am on the fence about it. I see the good it does and the bad. So, just so you have to explain yourself, why should it be ended? What is so "bad" about SS? Or do you just generally hate social programs?

Secondly, illegal immigrants wouldn't have to work under the table if they were citizens.

Open borders and automatic citizenship is not the answer to the problems as it would create far more problems as I have already explained.

All of these statements are false. The current education system is unnecessary and based upon an antiquated factory worker/farmer lifestyle that doesn't apply today, but that's for a different topic. Health care doesn't have to be funded by the government either, and in fact that's the biggest reason it's so expensive in the first place is because of government intervention - but that is also another topic. And finally, no, people would not "starve to death" without food stamps. They would be forced to, *gasp* seek help from the church, family, and friends!

Actually only the timing of when school is in session is based on antiquated worker/farmer lifestyle. The reasons to have free education still exist and always will. Historically slaves, serfs and peasents were not educated and the lords were. Whose lifestyle do you think was better off? The lords? Or the slaves, serfs, peasents? In todays terms take a look at third world countries. The amount of education available to the poor is, when compared to 1st world countries, down right disgusting. It also explains why there is always so much more strife and hunger within individual third world countries. As the old saying goes..."Feed a man a fish and he will be fed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will be fed his entire life". The ones that are educated will always be able to dominate those that are not educated.

As for universal health care...i'm against it.

As for the food bit. If what you say is true...why is it that people that live on the streets and die from starvation? Granted not many do because of social programs...but it still happens. How much more would it happen without social programs supported by our tax dollars?

Your fundamental misunderstanding of minimum wage laws and the industrial revolution is not surprising, probably a result of your free public non-education. Minimum wage laws kill jobs, they do not increase the standard of living. Wages were already rising when the first minimum wage laws were enacted, they had begun a steady increase long before the government stepped in.

Actually you are correct here. They do kill jobs. But they were also enacted to what I said. Which they have done. As with many things...there are pro's and con's to it.

Minimum wage

Question: Why do you suppose it is that most people don't earn minimum wage? Why on Earth would most employers pay greater than minimum wage if they could pay everyone just the minimum wage? Well? Think about it, is your argument valid or well thought out? I don't think so.

Even before minimum wage laws wages varied based on numerous factors. So you question is irrelevant.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Hmm....been 3 days...Thought March wanted to discuss this subject?

 

[MaggieD]

Be specific, the following reply is not acceptable: "Because they reduce our quality of life." How? In what way? Give examples. Support your argument.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

I'll start off: I support immigration. I think it's healthy for our economy and better for our country. I support labor competition, I think if Americans aren't competitive enough in the job market then it's perfectly fine to use immigrants to do work that Americans aren't willing to do for the same wages. Bottom line, I don't think immigration should be illegal. I think we need to make it much easier for people to come here and work and obtain citizenship. When given the choice between doing it the right way and coming illegally most people would choose doing it the right way unless that proved to be especially difficult, which is the case with current immigration law. I know that because my wife is not from this country. The immigration process is more or less bull****. I've even had colleagues of mine have difficulty getting their citizenship even after deployment and honorable discharge. It's borderline retarded. Example question: "Do you plan to overthrow the United States government?" Yeah that's exactly why I came to this country! Seriously, after 50-60 years do you think there has ever been a "yes" answer to this question?

I believe most of the "problems" associated with illegal immigration could be solved by two simple changes in philosophy:

1) Don't criminalize immigration in the first place
2) End socialist programs

The truth is that most illegal immigrants would choose citizenship if they had the choice. These suckers even want -- overwhelmingly -- to join in on the Social Security ponzi scheme, and the only way to keep this ponzi scheme going is to add new suckers to the system. I say let em in as a solution to both the "illegal immigration" problem and Social Security as well. Let them pay into the ponzi scheme so we can slowly wean people off, they pay in like everyone else my around or near my age, but don't expect to get any benefits when you're older.

Secondly, we end all the socialist programs that seem to be the main point of contention among opponents to illegal immigration. Everything from free education to health care and food stamps, all that **** gots to go. In this country you work for what you got and nobody owes you anything. End socialist minimum wage laws which destroy labor competition in the free market, we don't need the government to "level the playing field." Wages are determined by the market, not governments.

I support restricted immigration because the United States, like every other country, has finite resources.

We have approximately 307,000,000 people in the US today. The consequences of tripling that to one billion are so obvious and dire that I don't even feel I need to debate it.

So. Once one believes that one billion -- two billion -- three billion won't work...that our resources can't support that number...then one is automatically for restricted immigration. Taking the position of "come-one-come-all" is indefensible. It's a silly position to take.

 

[Badmutha]

A flute with no holes is not a flute.....

.....a country with no borders.....is not a country......
.
.
.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Be specific, the following reply is not acceptable: "Because they reduce our quality of life." How? In what way? Give examples. Support your argument.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

Well, it is easier to win the argument if you can set the rules to eliminate the opponents' arguments. Why can't "because it is illegal" be a valid argument? Enforcing the law is required as long as the law is on the books.

I'll start off: I support immigration.

So does everyone else. But the reason for immigration rules is to prevent massive waves of people overwhelming resources.

I think it's healthy for our economy and better for our country. I support labor competition, I think if Americans aren't competitive enough in the job market then it's perfectly fine to use immigrants to do work that Americans aren't willing to do for the same wages.

That's a huge fallacy. Americans are willing to do the work. In fact, I talked to a black woman a while back in South Dakota. She was from California and she said to me; "I'm sure glad to see black people cleaning rooms up here." Why? Because they can't get those jobs in California for the illegal immigrants.

Bottom line, I don't think immigration should be illegal.

It isn't.

I think we need to make it much easier for people to come here and work and obtain citizenship. When given the choice between doing it the right way and coming illegally most people would choose doing it the right way unless that proved to be especially difficult, which is the case with current immigration law. o/quote]

You know, it is interesting that you bring this up, because it was the topic of discussion in church this morning. What to choose, the easy way or the right way. Guess which side the Pastor came down on?

I know that because my wife is not from this country. The immigration process is more or less bull****. I've even had colleagues of mine have difficulty getting their citizenship even after deployment and honorable discharge. It's borderline retarded. Example question: "Do you plan to overthrow the United States government?" Yeah that's exactly why I came to this country! Seriously, after 50-60 years do you think there has ever been a "yes" answer to this question?

That is funny. Who answers yes to that?

I believe most of the "problems" associated with illegal immigration could be solved by two simple changes in philosophy:

1) Don't criminalize immigration in the first place

It is not criminal to gain citizenship to the US.

2) End socialist programs

That would fix tons of problems.

The truth is that most illegal immigrants would choose citizenship if they had the choice.

They do have a choice.

These suckers even want -- overwhelmingly -- to join in on the Social Security ponzi scheme, and the only way to keep this ponzi scheme going is to add new suckers to the system. I say let em in as a solution to both the "illegal immigration" problem and Social Security as well. Let them pay into the ponzi scheme so we can slowly wean people off, they pay in like everyone else my around or near my age, but don't expect to get any benefits when you're older.

What happened to ending social programs?

Secondly, we end all the socialist programs that seem to be the main point of contention among opponents to illegal immigration.

Oh, there it is.

Everything from free education to health care and food stamps, all that **** gots to go. In this country you work for what you got and nobody owes you anything. End socialist minimum wage laws which destroy labor competition in the free market, we don't need the government to "level the playing field." Wages are determined by the market, not governments.

 

[lpast]

What if you didn't have to feed, cloth, and give medical care to illegal immigrants, but rather they provided their own? Then would you still oppose it? What if we remove the costs of incarceration and enforcement from the picture (granting citizenship)? Would you still it oppose it then?

I will ignore your insult and not insult you in return march...You cherry picked my first sentence READ THE REST OF MY POST that gives the reasons

 

[MKULTRABOY]

I am against illegal immigration because immigrants are not Americans.

This is a dissapointing chest thump.

and we have both a right and a legitimate interest in deciding whom we allow to reside in this country and whom we allow to join our nation.

Yes, we do.

Illegal immigrants bypass the criteria we have established for allowing people to come here and subvert our national sovereignty.

By what means is sovereignty subverted when the very symbols of our nation support and encourage and are founded on immigration?

As far as I'm concerned the illegal immigration situation could be a designed scam on the part of big business to provide cheap labor for all I care.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

This is a dissapointing chest thump.

We either defend our territory or we lose it. I agree that this nation was founded upon immigration-- even unrestricted immigration-- but that time has passed, and it is now in our best interests to be a little more selective about who we allow in. The structure of our society has changed, and the privileges of living here have changed. We are an established people with our own customs and culture now, and these are things which must be protected.

 

[samsmart]

Be specific, the following reply is not acceptable: "Because they reduce our quality of life." How? In what way? Give examples. Support your argument.

Also, no circular arguments. "Because it's ILLEGAL." Yeah, but that's the law that is in question in the first place. I request that this thread be heavily moderated to root out all the dummies not interested in a rational debate on the subject.

I'll start off: I support immigration. I think it's healthy for our economy and better for our country. I support labor competition, I think if Americans aren't competitive enough in the job market then it's perfectly fine to use immigrants to do work that Americans aren't willing to do for the same wages. Bottom line, I don't think immigration should be illegal. I think we need to make it much easier for people to come here and work and obtain citizenship. When given the choice between doing it the right way and coming illegally most people would choose doing it the right way unless that proved to be especially difficult, which is the case with current immigration law. I know that because my wife is not from this country. The immigration process is more or less bull****. I've even had colleagues of mine have difficulty getting their citizenship even after deployment and honorable discharge. It's borderline retarded. Example question: "Do you plan to overthrow the United States government?" Yeah that's exactly why I came to this country! Seriously, after 50-60 years do you think there has ever been a "yes" answer to this question?

I believe most of the "problems" associated with illegal immigration could be solved by two simple changes in philosophy:

1) Don't criminalize immigration in the first place
2) End socialist programs

The truth is that most illegal immigrants would choose citizenship if they had the choice. These suckers even want -- overwhelmingly -- to join in on the Social Security ponzi scheme, and the only way to keep this ponzi scheme going is to add new suckers to the system. I say let em in as a solution to both the "illegal immigration" problem and Social Security as well. Let them pay into the ponzi scheme so we can slowly wean people off, they pay in like everyone else my around or near my age, but don't expect to get any benefits when you're older.

Secondly, we end all the socialist programs that seem to be the main point of contention among opponents to illegal immigration. Everything from free education to health care and food stamps, all that **** gots to go. In this country you work for what you got and nobody owes you anything. End socialist minimum wage laws which destroy labor competition in the free market, we don't need the government to "level the playing field." Wages are determined by the market, not governments.

I object to illegal immigration because it's illegal.

Now to address your points.

1) The only reason why illegal immigrants want to get social security benefits is because they pay into it through the illegal SS numbers they get in order to work a job. So not only do they get paid very low wages, they also have part of those wages diverted to Social Security - which they can't legally get back when they retire. Since they get so little wages, I can understand why they'd want to address this.

The answer to this isn't to stop Social Security. Rather, it's to make it easier for immigrants to work visas. After all, most illegal immigrants, especially from Mexico, come here just to work. Very few of them want to become citizens; those who do want to become citizens in order to get jobs.

So let's make it easier for them to get work visas. This way immigrants can legally get jobs and we don't have to do anything with regards to Social Security.

2) Repealing minimum wage laws won't end food stamp programs, government health care programs, or the public school system. If anything, repealing minimum wage laws will only make people rely on those things more. Why? Because they will get paid less.

Instead, companies need to invest more money in salaries and wages to their workers rather than their CEOs. CEOs get insane amounts of money for generally short-term growth. All the wealth those executives get could instead go to a company's work force which will increase the quality of goods and services that company provides.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

We either defend our territory or we lose it. I agree that this nation was founded upon immigration-- even unrestricted immigration-- but that time has passed, and it is now in our best interests to be a little more selective about who we allow in. The structure of our society has changed, and the privileges of living here have changed. We are an established people with our own customs and culture now, and these are things which must be protected.

I don't see how illegal immigration is a threat to our territorial integrity, even less so that illegal immigrants are somehow subversive to the state. Like most anywhere they are trying to get by. Your arguments could easily succumb to exclusivism in representation in a state with no official race or religion. We should be selective about who we allow in, but 'amnesty' is not a threat just as having illegals in the state so far has not led to collapse. It just seems a little unnecessarily alarmist when the phenomena is not necessarily understoon completely and there is no single cohesive race or culture. It's not even 100% certain that illegals are causing significant damage to the country in any way.

 

[TheGirlNextDoor]

It's not even 100% certain that illegals are causing significant damage to the country in any way.

Really.

Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Economic Costs

The Cost of Undoing the Damage Done by Illegal Aliens
The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the National Park Service (NPS) are the units of DOI responsible for land management. Outlays for BLM and NPS are estimated at $1.756 billion and $2.135, respectively, in fiscal year (FY) 2007. Their combined spending—$3.891 billion—represents about 35 percent of all DOI outlays.
In the four years following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Congress appropriated nearly $87.6 million in one-time funding and over $36.4 million in recurring funding to the NPS directly related to homeland security costs.1 The $87.6 million included $53.1 million for construction projects related to homeland security, including $17.8 million for the vehicle barrier at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument—a popular border crossing point. The $87.6 million also included $33.8 million in operational increases dedicated to security for border parks. Cite.
Interest in mitigating the damage done by illegal immigrants along the southwestern border was stimulated by a study pushed forward by Congressman Jim Kolbe (R-Arizona) and released jointly in 2002 by the Interior Department, INS, and Environmental Protection Agency.
“As a result of the vast amount of smuggling of humans and controlled substances in southeast Arizona,” said the study, “the extremely valuable, and sometimes irreplaceable, natural and cultural resources...are in jeopardy.” Cite.

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_18_2/tsc_18_2_rubenstein_doi.shtml

 

[cpwill]

the importance of the rule of law is in and of itself a good reason to enforce the law. lawlessness in select area's leads rapidly to lawlessness in others; witness the rise of the cartels and hispanic gangs in the US.

that being said, illegal immigrants in this nation serve to increaes unemployment among our poor (who can't compete as they are hindered by minimum wage laws), increase the cost of our entitlements (draining resources designed to flow to support our own poor), and weaken public education (especially, again, those school systems that our poor are in).

So why am I against illegal immigration? Aside from the lawlessness, it's bad for the poor.

It's also a major security threat; there have been numerous instances of individuals with known terrorist ties getting caught crossing our southern border; where are the ones we haven't caught?

 

[samsmart]

the importance of the rule of law is in and of itself a good reason to enforce the law. lawlessness in select area's leads rapidly to lawlessness in others; witness the rise of the cartels and hispanic gangs in the US.

that being said, illegal immigrants in this nation serve to increaes unemployment among our poor (who can't compete as they are hindered by minimum wage laws), increase the cost of our entitlements (draining resources designed to flow to support our own poor), and weaken public education (especially, again, those school systems that our poor are in).

So why am I against illegal immigration? Aside from the lawlessness, it's bad for the poor.

It's also a major security threat; there have been numerous instances of individuals with known terrorist ties getting caught crossing our southern border; where are the ones we haven't caught?

I absolutely agree with you when it comes to the need to hinder criminal organizations who operate via illegal immigrants. In the Southwest, that's typically drug cartels. However, I think the best way to deal with them is to legalize recreational drugs. Doing so will cut down on their interaction in the U.S. more than any increased security will.

As for the increased burden on the poor, that's not quite so true.

People say that illegal immigrants provide "unskilled labor." Well, that isn't quite accurate. Rather, what illegal immigrants provide is labor that requires very little training times or cost. That is, they don't require a degree or lengthy certification in order to work in construction or agricultural jobs, the two major types of jobs illegal immigrants work in.

That is not to say, however, that those jobs are unskilled. I'd argue that it certainly takes skill to drive tractors, to hammer nails, to pick vegetables, and to do installations and to do so in a way that is cost effective for their employer.

You can't just take anyone from any other type of job and get them to do that. You can't pull a waiter or a customer service provider and expect them to do a good job in construction or agricultural work.

So just as our country lacks a base for manufacturing jobs because they've all been outsourced so too does our country now lack a base for agricultural and construction jobs because they've all been supplanted by illegal immigrants.

But, as I said before, the thing to do isn't to increase immigration security. Rather, it's to make work visas easier to get for immigrants. This way, they can do what they want to do - which is work - and the U.S. doesn't have to worry about them being such a drain on our resources.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I don't see how illegal immigration is a threat to our territorial integrity...

How are they not a threat to our territorial integrity? They're a threat by definition. We don't want them here, and they get in despite our intentions and despite our efforts to the contrary. They are actively undermining our national security, and they have no loyalty to either our State or our people. It doesn't matter what further harm they are causing by coming here, because they are first and foremost foreign invaders and they are not welcome here. The fact that they are causing further harm, by destroying private property, straining State resources, and engaging in other criminal enterprises is just gravy on top of the harm they are causing by just being here in the first place.

Like most anywhere they are trying to get by.

So? That doesn't mean they have the right to.

It just seems a little unnecessarily alarmist when the phenomena is not necessarily understoon completely and there is no single cohesive race or culture.

If you do not understand that America has its own cohesive culture, you're part of the problem. We are Americans and they are not like us. This is not a problem when we accept aliens in small numbers and acclimate them to our society, but when there are millions of undocumented and unassimilated aliens entering our country every year, our culture and our way of life are at risk.

 

[reaper]

Immigration is a controlled issue cause of boundary laws physical, legal, and political. You say not to quote because they lower our resources or standards of life or because it is a criminal act. Well, immigration has been an issue since our country started in 1776. Today it is an issue that covers many reasons. Many people don't want illegal immigration cause of financial reasons such as illegal immigrants taking jobs for lower pay, getting medical care and using false names cause of language barriers as well as few legal ones, and government assistance. Take your natural born citizen and they apply for a business grant and they are denied but people of other races or ethnicities get it that are not even citizens. It makes you upset when your own government denies you and helps someone who is not even a citizen.
That aside lets go to legal and political. A man comes here from Mexico, gets government assistance for food, housing, and medical. Now the government is losing money cause more people are taking out than putting in so eventually the bank is going to go empty. Second that same illegal immigrant comes to your house and shoots your child and spouse. That man flees back to Mexico where mexico denies us extradition because he is connected to political mafioso's there. Where is justice?? OUr lawmen cant go there like in the old days and hunt him down. Yet that one illegal immigrant has not cost the U.S. $100,000 or more in government assistance, medical care, and now for legal persecution. Immigration is needed in any society or culture. The problem is that America is treated as a feeding trough instead of a country and people come get what they need and leave instead of contributing to grow the next harvest.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

How are they not a threat to our territorial integrity? They're a threat by definition.

The negativity of their economic impact is disputable, that and they do not form any significant political or para-military movements that would issue a threat militarily to the government of the United States, not moreso than current 'member-of-ze-culture' citizens.

We don't want them here, and they get in despite our intentions and despite our efforts to the contrary.

Whether they aren't wanted and whether we actually issue any effort to keeping them out hasnt been seriously evidenced. What is more likely is we profit from their illegal status.

They are actively undermining our national security, and they have no loyalty to either our State or our people.

Meaningless, I have less loyalty to our state to half this country. Who Ironically believes they are more loyal yet wish to practically dissolve the government.

It doesn't matter what further harm they are causing by coming here, because they are first and foremost foreign invaders and they are not welcome here.

Don't play games, you know very well they aren't invaders, they are not organised into comitting any race or political war, and seek labor above all else.

The fact that they are causing further harm, by destroying private property...

What do you mean?

straining State resources, and engaging in other criminal enterprises is just gravy on top of the harm they are causing by just being here in the first place.

Generalizations, the vast majority of illegals are not part of some casanostra organisation or conspiracy. As for straining state resources it's arguably a minor economic pressure likely outweighed by their labor presence.

So? That doesn't mean they have the right to.

In my opinion this is likely where profit comes into play for the US.

If you do not understand that America has its own cohesive culture, you're part of the problem.

/meh, I guess it does. I wonder if there were any cultures here before us... like... Mexicans.

We are Americans and they are not like us.

Weak, bro, this is something I'd expect from a floating poster that sticks around for a week or two then leaves.

This is not a problem when we accept aliens in small numbers and acclimate them to our society, but when there are millions of undocumented and unassimilated aliens entering our country every year, our culture and our way of life are at risk.

More ethno-political alarmism and self-victimization. A failure tactic of modern racists. (I don't allege you are one, I can't assume that yet, moralistic divisions aside.)