• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

West Virginia Flooding, The Real Story

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
160,471
Reaction score
57,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
So far all I hear in the news about the WVA flooding is that it's due to lots of rain. But, what really lies beneath the damage, death and injuries is mountain top removal. Very few media outlets--none on the Right--seem to be addressing that as of yet. You have to look way Left to see even a brief mention of this underlying culprit. But, they are more apt to blame GlowBall warming.


The Majority Of West Virginia Is Under A State Of Emergency After Floods Devastate The State | ThinkProgress

...the process of coal mining can actually make flooding worse. Mountaintop removal mining — a widespread technique in West Virginia that involves blasting off the tops of mountains to reach the coal underneath — makes the state more vulnerable to flooding by removing trees and other plants that help hold back the rainwater. Without the help of root systems, soil that becomes wet during extreme precipitation events and flooding can also lead to dangerous mudslides.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
There has been no mountain top removal in the area affected. Those practices occur largely in southern WV.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
160,471
Reaction score
57,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
There has been no mountain top removal in the area affected. Those practices occur largely in southern WV.

The flooding is in Southern West Virginia.

Greenbrier County:
Grnb-map.jpg


At least 26 dead as historic floods sweep West Virginia
On Saturday, President Obama declared a major disaster for West Virginia and ordered federal aid to supplement state and local recovery efforts in the counties of Greenbrier, Kanawha and Nicholas.

Kanawha
200px-Map_of_West_Virginia_highlighting_Kanawha_County.svg.png


Nicholas
200px-Map_of_West_Virginia_highlighting_Nicholas_County.svg.png
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The flooding is in Southern West Virginia.

Greenbrier County:
Grnb-map.jpg


At least 26 dead as historic floods sweep West Virginia


Kanawha
200px-Map_of_West_Virginia_highlighting_Kanawha_County.svg.png


Nicholas
200px-Map_of_West_Virginia_highlighting_Nicholas_County.svg.png

I know where the flooding is. I live close by. Been in those areas many times. I also know where the mountain top mining is. It isn't there in any great amount, and wasn't the cause or a significant contributor to the flooding. There was also serious flooding in Covington, VA, Hot Springs, VA and other areas. No mountain top removal at all in those places any more than there is in White Sulfur, WV. The rainfall in those areas approached that experienced in 1985 in this region, and the result for that area is similar. If one is familiar with the topography of those areas, such results can be expected when rainfall reaches the recorded amounts.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
160,471
Reaction score
57,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
I know where the flooding is. I live close by. Been in those areas many times. I also know where the mountain top mining is. It isn't there in any great amount, and wasn't the cause or a significant contributor to the flooding. There was also serious flooding in Covington, VA, Hot Springs, VA and other areas. No mountain top removal at all in those places any more than there is in White Sulfur, WV. The rainfall in those areas approached that experienced in 1985 in this region, and the result for that area is similar. If one is familiar with the topography of those areas, such results can be expected when rainfall reaches the recorded amounts.

MTR is all over that area.
Map_Mountains.jpg
 

bubbabgone

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
31,894
Reaction score
16,196
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I know where the flooding is. I live close by. Been in those areas many times. I also know where the mountain top mining is. It isn't there in any great amount, and wasn't the cause or a significant contributor to the flooding. There was also serious flooding in Covington, VA, Hot Springs, VA and other areas. No mountain top removal at all in those places any more than there is in White Sulfur, WV. The rainfall in those areas approached that experienced in 1985 in this region, and the result for that area is similar. If one is familiar with the topography of those areas, such results can be expected when rainfall reaches the recorded amounts.

For what it's worth, Joe Manchin said mountain top mining isn't a factor also.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Shame!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
29,285
Reaction score
8,890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
If we hadn't crippled development of new Nuclear power plants decades ago MTR would be a moot issue.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Shame!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
29,285
Reaction score
8,890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
For what it's worth, Joe Manchin said mountain top mining isn't a factor also.

He's going to show up with his rifle and shoot any geological studies showing that to be a factor.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's the hollers.

It is. The vast majority of the mountain top removal is in the far south of the state. That's not to say there isn't some in those areas, but we have a history to refer to which pretty clearly demonstrates that while that kind of mining is destructive, it isn't the contributor in this case many claim. Mountain top removal is an environmental pariah, but it didn't cause this flooding, and it doesn't cause tooth decay either. The rain and topography caused the flooding.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
For what it's worth, Joe Manchin said mountain top mining isn't a factor also.

And he's correct. All a person has to do is go and observe. Misattributing blame because it attempts to advance an environmental cause doesn't help that cause. Someone should tell those folks that. There are plenty of reasons to dislike mountain top mining. This event isn't one of them because in this instance it wasn't the cause or significant contributor.
 

bubbabgone

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Messages
31,894
Reaction score
16,196
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
And he's correct. All a person has to do is go and observe. Misattributing blame because it attempts to advance an environmental cause doesn't help that cause. Someone should tell those folks that. There are plenty of reasons to dislike mountain top mining. This event isn't one of them because in this instance it wasn't the cause or significant contributor.

I won't claim to know anything about MTM but I do know very few real or imagined opportunities to propagandize natural events will escape the environmental crowd steeped in politics.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
MTR is all over that area.
Map_Mountains.jpg

Those little trees are cute. They don't indicate anything of the extent of such practices. The simple fact is that there is relatively little of the mountain top coal layering in the areas affected by the flood. Those areas where significant mountain top removal occurs are further to the south. In that area, the mining could produce the claimed effect, but not where the flooding occurred. I always enjoy people telling me all about the region in which I live who've never actually been there or live there themselves. So tell me exactly how this mountain top removal affected White Sulphur, WV, Hot Springs, VA and Covington VA and other areas along the VA- WV border that were affected by this flood, realizing that they don't even share the same watershed and where there is absolutely no mountain top mining at all. I'm all ears.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I won't claim to know anything about MTM but I do know very few real or imagined opportunities to propagandize natural events will escape the environmental crowd steeped in politics.

They should've hoped the flooding occurred to the south. That would've bolstered their claim. In fact, it didn't. MTM didn't even exist in 1985, when serious rain caused a similar event - wider in area and more serious to be sure, but similar. That's not to say MTM couldn't or wouldn't cause such flooding. It's just that in this instance it wasn't a significant factor, despite the claims.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
160,471
Reaction score
57,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Those little trees are cute. They don't indicate anything of the extent of such practices. The simple fact is that there is relatively little of the mountain top coal layering in the areas affected by the flood. Those areas where significant mountain top removal occurs are further to the south. In that area, the mining could produce the claimed effect, but not where the flooding occurred. I always enjoy people telling me all about the region in which I live who've never actually been there or live there themselves. So tell me exactly how this mountain top removal affected White Sulphur, WV, Hot Springs, VA and Covington VA and other areas along the VA- WV border that were affected by this flood, realizing that they don't even share the same watershed and where there is absolutely no mountain top mining at all. I'm all ears.

The flooding in those areas was not nearly as severe as in the three counties mentioned. And, all of those are right in the heart of MTR country.
 

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
26,669
Reaction score
17,780
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The flooding in those areas was not nearly as severe as in the three counties mentioned. And, all of those are right in the heart of MTR country.

Believe what suits you. They aren't in the "heart" of MTM, but if you like that idea, you go with it. There's a very old joke from WV about people who drowned in the back of a pick up because they couldn't get the tailgate down on the bed of the truck during a flood. Wonder where that came from? Let me guess. MTM.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
30,953
Reaction score
9,018
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It is. The vast majority of the mountain top removal is in the far south of the state. That's not to say there isn't some in those areas, but we have a history to refer to which pretty clearly demonstrates that while that kind of mining is destructive, it isn't the contributor in this case many claim. Mountain top removal is an environmental pariah, but it didn't cause this flooding, and it doesn't cause tooth decay either. The rain and topography caused the flooding.

Same as it is here on the Balcones escarpment...everything runs downhill , fas
 

ludin

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
57,470
Reaction score
14,585
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I know where the flooding is. I live close by. Been in those areas many times. I also know where the mountain top mining is. It isn't there in any great amount, and wasn't the cause or a significant contributor to the flooding. There was also serious flooding in Covington, VA, Hot Springs, VA and other areas. No mountain top removal at all in those places any more than there is in White Sulfur, WV. The rainfall in those areas approached that experienced in 1985 in this region, and the result for that area is similar. If one is familiar with the topography of those areas, such results can be expected when rainfall reaches the recorded amounts.

a large part of the issue is that the major creeks that run through there were never maintained. They haven't been dredged in years and all the silt build up has caused them to be
shallow where before they were deep.

mountain top removal has affected the weather patterns as the mountains no longer can break up or deflect weather which is what they were doing.
the degree to which they do is the question.

Kanawha county and Nicholas are not mining area's if they are then they are more underground mining.
he doesn't know what he is talking about.
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavides TAB
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
77,292
Reaction score
32,882
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Perhaps the reason it isnt getting mentioned is because even in the obviously UNbiased 'thinkprogress' source article

"And the process of coal mining can actually make flooding worse. Mountaintop removal mining — a widespread technique in West Virginia that involves blasting off the tops of mountains to reach the coal underneath — makes the state more vulnerable to flooding by removing trees and other plants that help hold back the rainwater. Without the help of root systems, soil that becomes wet during extreme precipitation events and flooding can also lead to dangerous mudslides."

Even that article cant bring itself to say "did".
 

longview

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
32,652
Reaction score
10,544
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
And here I was thinking the flooding was caused by a mountainous getting three times their monthly
rain fall in a few days!
 

jimbo

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
19,078
Reaction score
6,745
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
So this is the worst flooding in 100 years. Meaning that around 101 years ago there was a worse flood. But now it's coal mining's fault. Coincidentally coal mining elimination is an issue Hillary is going to have to address in the next 6 months. Coincidence?

Coal mining has been around WVA since the 1700's. In the meantime floods in WVA have come and gone. MTM has been around for a while without causing floods for a hundred years. Why this year?
 

Lord of Planar

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
49,038
Reaction score
14,396
Location
Portlandia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
So far all I hear in the news about the WVA flooding is that it's due to lots of rain. But, what really lies beneath the damage, death and injuries is mountain top removal. Very few media outlets--none on the Right--seem to be addressing that as of yet. You have to look way Left to see even a brief mention of this underlying culprit. But, they are more apt to blame GlowBall warming.


The Majority Of West Virginia Is Under A State Of Emergency After Floods Devastate The State | ThinkProgress

Think Progress telling you how to think...

If it's the worse in 100 years, then how is topping imaginary mountains the cause? Doesn't this mean 100 years ago, there was a worse one yot? Did we start topping mountains over 100 years ago?

Land use changes are definitely the cause of more flooding in the USA. We diminish the area of land which reduced the amount of water the land can hold. Much of this water would normally be used by plants that no longer exist where roads, building, etc. are now. They would normally shed their water through transpiration which also cools the air in the process. This water is now channeled through storm sewers which increase the flow demand of rivers, streams, etc. Once this flow capacity is limited below the rate of flow, we have flooding. It doesn't help that most bridges have also reduced the flow capacities.

Why do you even bother bringing up such tripe?


Climate scientists predict that as warmer temperatures allow more moisture to stay in the atmosphere, this can lead to more intense downpours.

Now this is a given. There is more moisture built up that can cause more precipitation when released. It's a pretty small change however, and is both natural and unnatural. Anyone doing any decent research on the topic realizes land use is a serious issue for changing the way precipitated water acts.
 

Lord of Planar

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
49,038
Reaction score
14,396
Location
Portlandia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
There has been no mountain top removal in the area affected. Those practices occur largely in southern WV.

Hmmm....

Water goes downstream and many rivers are very long...
 

Lord of Planar

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
49,038
Reaction score
14,396
Location
Portlandia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
So this is the worst flooding in 100 years. Meaning that around 101 years ago there was a worse flood. But now it's coal mining's fault. Coincidentally coal mining elimination is an issue Hillary is going to have to address in the next 6 months. Coincidence?

Coal mining has been around WVA since the 1700's. In the meantime floods in WVA have come and gone. MTM has been around for a while without causing floods for a hundred years. Why this year?

Don't you love how their religion/agenda supersedes rational thought?
 

jimbo

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
19,078
Reaction score
6,745
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Think Progress telling you how to think...

If it's the worse in 100 years, then how is topping imaginary mountains the cause? Doesn't this mean 100 years ago, there was a worse one yot? Did we start topping mountains over 100 years ago?

Land use changes are definitely the cause of more flooding in the USA. We diminish the area of land which reduced the amount of water the land can hold. Much of this water would normally be used by plants that no longer exist where roads, building, etc. are now. They would normally shed their water through transpiration which also cools the air in the process. This water is now channeled through storm sewers which increase the flow demand of rivers, streams, etc. Once this flow capacity is limited below the rate of flow, we have flooding. It doesn't help that most bridges have also reduced the flow capacities.

Why do you even bother bringing up such tripe?


Climate scientists predict that as warmer temperatures allow more moisture to stay in the atmosphere, this can lead to more intense downpours.

Now this is a given. There is more moisture built up that can cause more precipitation when released. It's a pretty small change however, and is both natural and unnatural. Anyone doing any decent research on the topic realizes land use is a serious issue for changing the way precipitated water acts.

Another small, missed by the environmrentalists, point is that alternative energy production destroys more land per energy unit to produce than coal. Alcohol from corn is a net energy loser and utilizes a lot of land. Solar production requires huge areas of land and renders it unfit for habitat. Wind? Special exemptions for bird kills must be granted.
 
Top Bottom