We need more gun laws.

[ataraxia]

Sure it does.

That's the nature of understanding statistics.

If there is a causal relationship between gun ownership and crime..well then such a relationship should be 1. Consistent ( Idaho should have a high murder rate)
2. Show a dose response..( in other words ..Idaho having the most guns should have the highest murder rate.).
( there are other criteria for causation but let's start with that).

In addition you have to understand validity.

If " gun crime" is a valid measure of safety..

Then idaho with higher " gun crime"..
Should consequently have a higher murder rate. But it doesn't.

You see your disconnect right? You cited statistics and made a conclusion.

Yet you didn't have all the statistics did you. ???

Statistics does not mean comparing two states together and drawing a conclusion.

 

[jaeger19]

I am glad you find violent crime so amusing.

"In the past 12 years, several new studies found that increases in the prevalence of gun ownership are associated with increases in violent crime. "

The Relationship Between Firearm Prevalence and Violent Crime

In the past 12 years, several new studies found that increases in the prevalence of gun ownership are associated with increases in violent crime. Whether this association is attributable to gun prevalence causing more violent crime is unclear. If people are more likely to acquire guns when crime...

www.rand.org

Well..
Not in idaho..so....
Or many other countries or states.

I mean..no doubt that you can find an association with higher gun ownership and increased crime.
For a variety of reasons.
Just not a causal relationship that guns cause crime..

However..its not surprising that an increase in crime rates could cause people to go out and purchase firearms.

Thus the association.

 

[ataraxia]

Well..
Not in idaho..so....
Or many other countries or states.

The link I posted to using actual statistics says otherwise.

 

[jaeger19]

Statistics does not mean comparing two states together and drawing a conclusion.

Sure it does.

Just like you compare a few states and drew a conclusion...
I however didn't draw a conclusion of causality..
While you did.

 

[jaeger19]

The link I posted to using actual statistics says otherwise.

I did.
But here you go

Stats of the States - Homicide Mortality

www.cdc.gov

Gun Ownership by State 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[ataraxia]

Sure it does.

Just like you compare a few states and drew a conclusion...
I however didn't draw a conclusion of causality..
While you did.

Nah, the p-values and statistical analyses, done by statisticians, are all in the papers.

 

[jaeger19]

The link I posted to using actual statistics says otherwise.

No it doesn't.

Here is what you cited says.

"While most of the new studies provide evidence consistent with the hypothesis that gun prevalence increases violent crime, the methodological weaknesses that led NRC (2004) to conclude that the causal effects of gun prevalence were not proven to continue to apply. In particular, if people are more likely to acquire guns when crime rates are rising or high (as suggested by, for instance, Bice and Hemley, 2002, and Kleck and Patterson, 1993), then the same pattern of evidence would be expected, but it would be crime rates causing gun prevalence, not the reverse.".

Sounds eerily similar to what I said..now doesn't it. ???

 

[ataraxia]

I did.
But here you go

Stats of the States - Homicide Mortality

www.cdc.gov

Gun Ownership by State 2025

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

Statistical analysis has to control for lots of different variables to sort through complex cause-and-effect relationships.

1. Statistical Controls: Studies often use statistical methods to control for various factors that can affect crime rates. In the case of rural vs. urban areas, researchers can include variables like population density, socioeconomic status, and other demographic factors that might influence crime rates. By controlling for these variables, they can isolate the effect of gun prevalence on crime rates.
2. Comparative Analysis: Some studies compare areas with similar demographic and socioeconomic characteristics but with differing levels of gun prevalence. This helps to determine whether differences in crime rates can be attributed to gun availability rather than other factors.
3. Longitudinal Studies: Researchers might look at how changes in gun laws or gun ownership over time affect crime rates. For instance, they might study a city before and after a significant change in gun laws while controlling for other factors that could influence crime rates.
4. Geographic Stratification: Some studies specifically compare rural and urban areas by stratifying their samples. They analyze these areas separately to understand how gun prevalence impacts crime in different contexts. This helps to account for the different baseline crime rates and gun ownership patterns in rural vs. urban settings.
5. Disaggregated Data: Researchers may disaggregate data by different types of violent crime (e.g., homicides vs. assaults) and by different types of areas (rural vs. urban) to see if the relationship between gun prevalence and crime varies by crime type or by geographic context.
6. Case Studies: In some cases, detailed case studies of specific regions or cities with varying levels of gun prevalence can provide insights into how gun availability affects crime. These case studies can reveal nuanced understandings that broader statistical analyses might miss.

By using these and other methods, researchers aim to control for the various factors that could confound the relationship between gun prevalence and violent crime, helping to provide a clearer picture of how guns and crime interact across different settings.

 

[Maidenrules29]

Look at those black criminals your right everyone thats black is a gang banger.

 

[memberya2]

Im sorry i was being sarcastic to make a point that this thread seems racist.

 

[DebateChallenge]

If you have ANY laws, how do you get criminals to stop breaking them?

By enforcing them, that should be obvious enough.

 

[DebateChallenge]

The same kind they have in all other economically developed nations in the world today. We live in the wild west here.

If you're looking at the UK as one of those examples we should follow, if you consider it to be one of those other economically developed nations and as such we should have the same kind of gun laws they have, than you're a traitor to the USA.

 

[DebateChallenge]

We live in the wild west here.

You mean the mild west. Shootouts were rare back then, it's only because of how Hollywood makes it out to be that people think there were shootouts every day.

 

[DebateChallenge]

The Second amendment became obsolete with the infringement on your right to own private nuclear arms.

Newsflash, a gun is nothing like a nuclear arm.

It’s an 18th century law that makes no sense with modern technology. The law to keep up with the tones and technology. The courts have tried to twist and bend interpretations to still have the 2A remain relevant. But it’s becoming increasingly difficult, and will continue to become even more difficult as weapons technology advances. It’s just a matter of how much carnage America is willing to stomach before it finally cries uncle on this dangerously obsolete law.

If the 2A is obsolete and doesn't make sense in this day and age it would've been repealed by now, but as it is it's still around.

 

[jaeger19]

Statistical analysis has to control for lots of different variables to sort through complex cause-and-effect relationships.

1. Statistical Controls: Studies often use statistical methods to control for various factors that can affect crime rates. In the case of rural vs. urban areas, researchers can include variables like population density, socioeconomic status, and other demographic factors that might influence crime rates. By controlling for these variables, they can isolate the effect of gun prevalence on crime rates.
2. Comparative Analysis: Some studies compare areas with similar demographic and socioeconomic characteristics but with differing levels of gun prevalence. This helps to determine whether differences in crime rates can be attributed to gun availability rather than other factors.
3. Longitudinal Studies: Researchers might look at how changes in gun laws or gun ownership over time affect crime rates. For instance, they might study a city before and after a significant change in gun laws while controlling for other factors that could influence crime rates.
4. Geographic Stratification: Some studies specifically compare rural and urban areas by stratifying their samples. They analyze these areas separately to understand how gun prevalence impacts crime in different contexts. This helps to account for the different baseline crime rates and gun ownership patterns in rural vs. urban settings.
5. Disaggregated Data: Researchers may disaggregate data by different types of violent crime (e.g., homicides vs. assaults) and by different types of areas (rural vs. urban) to see if the relationship between gun prevalence and crime varies by crime type or by geographic context.
6. Case Studies: In some cases, detailed case studies of specific regions or cities with varying levels of gun prevalence can provide insights into how gun availability affects crime. These case studies can reveal nuanced understandings that broader statistical analyses might miss.

By using these and other methods, researchers aim to control for the various factors that could confound the relationship between gun prevalence and violent crime, helping to provide a clearer picture of how guns and crime interact across different settings.

Well yes.
And as pointed out it's why these studies show an association..
But not a causal relationship.

However. On a larger note..

If I can live in an area that has low crime..and yet a high prevalence of guns..

Why should I want to be restricted?...

 

[ataraxia]

Newsflash, a gun is nothing like a nuclear arm.

Newsflash, it's nothing like a nail clipper either.

If the 2A is obsolete and doesn't make sense in this day and age it would've been repealed by now, but as it is it's still around.

You're absolutely right. But some dysfunctional habits and traditions just persist in societies because of just the sheer momentum of tradition.

If you ever visit Yemen, they're big into this chewable thing (a little like chewable tobacco) called Khat. It's a big public health problem, creating serious issues from cancer to damaged teeth to addiction. But you can't take it away from them, because... well it's just an inextricable part of their culture, habit, and traditions. So lots of people die and live in dysfunction. That's humans for ya.

Khat (Catha edulis): health aspects of khat chewing - PubMed

Catha edulis Forsk leaves (khat) are chewed daily by a high proportion of the adult population in Yemen for the mild stimulant effect. Cathinone is believed to be the main active ingredient in fresh khat leaves and is structurally related and pharmacologically similar to amphetamine. The habit...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[jaeger19]

Newsflash, it's nothing like a nail clipper either.

You're absolutely right. But some dysfunctional habits and traditions just persist in societies because of just the sheer momentum of tradition.

If you ever visit Yemen, they're big into this chewable thing (a little like chewable tobacco) called Khat. It's a big public health problem, creating serious issues from cancer to damaged teeth to addiction. But you can't take it away from them, because... well it's just an inextricable part of their culture, habit, and traditions. So lots of people die and live in dysfunction. That's humans for ya.

Khat (Catha edulis): health aspects of khat chewing - PubMed

Catha edulis Forsk leaves (khat) are chewed daily by a high proportion of the adult population in Yemen for the mild stimulant effect. Cathinone is believed to be the main active ingredient in fresh khat leaves and is structurally related and pharmacologically similar to amphetamine. The habit...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Well..except for the fact that guns in my culture don't create negatives but many very large positives.

From social relationships with my family..hunting..shooting ..competition.

To economic as my community economics are tied to hunting..and shooting.
Hunting brings in millions of dollars unto my community.

 

[ataraxia]

Well yes.
And as pointed out it's why these studies show an association..

Wow! Well at least we are making some progress- because you were denying this before.

And another thing that's clear now: these things don't make us safer.

But not a causal relationship.

Yeah those exist too.

"Where there were multiple estimates regarding the effect of gun levels on a given crime rate, the one based on the strongest methods was included - e.g., the finding based on the model with the largest number of significant control variables, the strongest methods for addressing causal order, or the most valid measure of gun prevalence. Using these guidelines, there were 90 distinct findings, i.e. distinct tests of the hypothesis that higher gun levels cause higher crime rates."

The Impact of Gun Ownership Rates on Crime Rates: A Methodological Review of the Evidence

This paper reviews 41 English-language studies that tested the hypothesis that higher gun prevalence levels cause higher crime rates, especially highe…

www.sciencedirect.com

However. On a larger note..

If I can live in an area that has low crime..and yet a high prevalence of guns..

Why should I want to be restricted?...

These guns are bought in one area and used in another. Most guns used in Chicago violent crime, for example, are bought in Indiana.

So on an even larger note yet: would you be OK with living with a high prevalence of guns knowing that your freedom is leading to death and bereavement of a lot of your fellow Americans elsewhere? Or does that just not matter and it's too bad for them?

 

[ataraxia]

Well..except for the fact that guns in my culture don't create negatives but many very large positives.

From social relationships with my family..hunting..shooting ..competition.

Lots of countries have those, along with sensible gun laws. Canada is a good example.

To economic as my community economics are tied to hunting..and shooting.
Hunting brings in millions of dollars unto my community.

What gun control proposal, that the vast majority of Americans want, do you think would interfere with that?

 

[jaeger19]

Lots of countries have those, along with sensible gun laws. Canada is a good example.


What gun control proposal, that the vast majority of Americans want, do you think would interfere with that?

Sure. So does my state. With less restrictions than Canada and a comparable murder rate.
Canada has severe restrictions on the handguns I use to compete with and carry for predator protection. ( me and livestock,)
Yet tge gun most used in Canada in crime?
Handguns

Explain why I should accept a Canada like restriction which takes away my rights but doesn't appreciable increase my safety?
In fact likely decreases it.

And I don't really care what the " majority of America wants".

I care what makes sense.

Cripes..America voted for trump as president.

 

[jaeger19]

Wow! Well at least we are making some progress- because you were denying this before.

And another thing that's clear now: these things don't make us safer.

Yeah those exist too.

"Where there were multiple estimates regarding the effect of gun levels on a given crime rate, the one based on the strongest methods was included - e.g., the finding based on the model with the largest number of significant control variables, the strongest methods for addressing causal order, or the most valid measure of gun prevalence. Using these guidelines, there were 90 distinct findings, i.e. distinct tests of the hypothesis that higher gun levels cause higher crime rates."

The Impact of Gun Ownership Rates on Crime Rates: A Methodological Review of the Evidence

This paper reviews 41 English-language studies that tested the hypothesis that higher gun prevalence levels cause higher crime rates, especially highe…

www.sciencedirect.com

These guns are bought in one area and used in another. Most guns used in Chicago violent crime, for example, are bought in Indiana.

So on an even larger note yet: would you be OK with living with a high prevalence of guns knowing that your freedom is leading to death and bereavement of a lot of your fellow Americans elsewhere? Or does that just not matter and it's too bad for them?

Nope. Never denied that some studies show an association.
Particularly in America.

2. They make me safer. You maybe not. But then you can choose not to buy one.

3. Great. Show me the physiological way that guns CAUSE someone to say commit murder. Or CAUSE someone to be suicidal.

There isn't. Which is why the research you cited concluded.

"Conclusions

"Technically weak research mostly supports the hypothesis, while strong research does not. It must be tentatively concluded that higher gun ownership rates do not cause higher crime rates, including homicide rates"

The study you cited concluded that higher gun ownership did not cause higher crime rates.

Did you even bother to read the study you cited.?

4. Well.. you would have to show exactly how my owning firearms CAUSES other to commit crimes in other states.

What's the mechanism?

Having lived in places like ny with high crime rates and draconian gun laws..
Despite low gun crime rates.

It seems criminals still find a way to murder rape and steal.

I would suggest we do things that actually reduce criminal behavior

Rather than worry about my firearms.

 

[ataraxia]

Explain why I should accept a Canada like restriction which takes away my rights but doesn't appreciable increase my safety?

Because it may increase the safety of your fellow citizens and your nation? Or does that not matter to you?

After all, Canadian are safer from violent crimes than Americans.

In fact likely decreases it.

We reviewed the observations that it doesn't. That's not an opinion- just a fact.

 

[ataraxia]

3. Great. Show me the physiological way that guns CAUSE someone to say commit murder. Or CAUSE someone to be suicidal.

Because it's the right tool for the job. It's the same reason nuclear proliferation is considered undesirable. It's not that nukes grow legs and kill people by themselves. It's true that nukes don't kill people. Poeple kill people. The nukes need people to use them. But that doesn't mean you just leave them on sale at Walmart. The tool matters.

 

[jaeger19]

Because it's the right tool for the job. It's the same reason nuclear proliferation is considered undesirable. It's not that nukes grow legs and kill people by themselves. It's true that nukes don't kill people. Poeple kill people. The nukes need people to use them. But that doesn't mean you just leave them on sale at Walmart. The tool matters.

Except that people still find away to murder
Germany..with considerably more firearms and less restrictions ...has a lower murder rate than the uk.

In this case the tool doesn't really matter.

Unless you want to go to the absurd extreme of taking a nuclear weapon and saying it's the equivalent of a .22 handgun.

 

[ataraxia]

Except that people still find away to murder
Germany..with considerably more firearms and less restrictions ...has a lower murder rate than the uk.

Again, I don't think you understand the idea of statistics, correlations, etc... I would be fine with restrictions such as Germany.

And certainly whatever firearms are doing, they are not making us as a society safer, as you seem to suggest.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

More firearms do not keep people safe, hard numbers show. Why do so many Americans believe the opposite?

www.scientificamerican.com

In this case the tool doesn't really matter.

Unless you want to go to the absurd extreme of taking a nuclear weapon and saying it's the equivalent of a .22 handgun.

... or the ridiculous extreme of saying that an AR15 with bump stock and high capacity magazine clip is the same thing as a .22 handgun.