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Was Trump's order to attack and ultimately kill 11 civilians in a Venezuelan boat in Caribbean Sea on September 2 lawful?

Was President Trump's order for the Navy to attack a Venezuelan vessel killing 11 civilians lawful?

  • Total voters
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TangoNoCash said:
Most people would just call that straight up murder.
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That's pretty much what it is. The fishing boat probably couldn't even have reached the United States, let alone transport drugs into the country for that purpose. As I said, the current buildup has little to do with drugs. It's the the so-called leader of the free world trying to start WW3 on one continent and trying to overthrow regimes run by brown people on another.
 
Well, when the president does it ... that means that it is not illegal.
 
This isn't the assassination of Bin laden, I don't think Trump was in the loop when it happened.
 
Isidore said:
Well, when the president does it ... that means that it is not illegal.
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Yes, it seems to me that a former disgraced President uttered that line to the shock of Americans.... back when people understood what it meant to be an American president.

dmpi said:
This isn't the assassination of Bin laden, I don't think Trump was in the loop when it happened.
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Seriously? The Navy unilaterally attacks a boat from another country and Trump did not know about it. That would either be naivete on your part or gross negligence on the part of Trump. This is not something the US Navy does as a matter of course. It is not very likely to implausible that Trump did not know and give the order.
 
Risky Thicket said:
It was lawful or it was not. Plain and simple.
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It could probably be deemed lawful depending on how you interpret the global terror policy mostly put in place by Dubya, but the more interesting question is if it were unlawful, who exactly would adjudicate that law? As far as "unlawful" or "immoral" actions go, this is kind of a drop in the bucket as far as the US empire is concerned.

We've done this kind of thing pretty routinely since the end of the second world war. I'm not sure why this is particularly bad, outside of it occurring under a notoriously incompetent administration in a highly polarized political environment.
 
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It's not even remotely lawful.

- The vessel was not attacking.
- In fact, latest reports are that the vessel was turning away.
- The US is not "at war" in any meaningful sense with Tren de Aragua, or vice versa. They're a criminal gang, not a state military organization.
- The US military did not even try to confirm that it was transporting drugs or operated by Tren de Aragua.
- The US is not at war with Venezuela
- Trump's lame attempt to say it's justified because "drugs kill 100,000 Americans a year" is total blathering nonsense. I mean, really. When will the Department of War lay siege to RJ Reynolds, who easily kills that number of Americans a year?

BTW, NYT had a handy write-up on this just now.
www.nytimes.com

Venezuelan Boat Suspected of Drug Smuggling Is Said to Have Turned Before U.S. Strike

The Trump administration has argued that the summary killing of 11 people it accused of running drugs was legal under the laws of war.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
upsideguy said:
Seriously? The Navy unilaterally attacks a boat from another country and Trump did not know about it. That would either be naivete on your part or gross negligence on the part of Trump. This is not something the US Navy does as a matter of course. It is not very likely to implausible that Trump did not know and give the order.
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This is a rare target of opportunity. The extremely short time line doesn't support having too many people in the chain of command.
 
dmpi said:
This is a rare target of opportunity. The extremely short time line doesn't support having too many people in the chain of command.
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"...A rare target opportunity????..." did you come up with that one yourself or did some Fox commentator feed it to you?

You are deluding yourself. This was not the Navy's mission, they would have zero reason to do this without direct orders.
Moreover they would not have unilaterally acted at the risk of an international incident.

Stop lying to yourself and then try to sell those lies here, it is unbecoming.
 
dmpi said:
This is a rare target of opportunity. The extremely short time line doesn't support having too many people in the chain of command.
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Dude.

Just saying words doesn't count as an argument.

You literally just say things.

They mean nothing.
 
They say the key words to try and make this legal but none of it seems to make any sense and really makes you think they are full of it.

They claim "imminent threat" which is a condition that allows something like this. It was a cigar boat like a thousand miles from the US and they originally said it wasn't even headed to the US, that it was headed to Trinidad. Even assuming everything they say is true, and it's 11 people in a small boat loaded with drugs, you have 1000 miles to stop the boat. They made the choice to blow up that boat and that's murder, not protecting the US from an eminent threat.

Then, of course, nothing else makes sense. Rubio said it was headed to Trinidad but they changed it to the US. A boat that size is going to have to stop multiple times before it would make it to the US, so the idea it was going to the US loaded with both people and drugs is ****ing impossible.

They claim it was a boat full of drugs. There was a 11 people on that boat. You'd think they would want to have as few people as possible to stack as much drugs as possible on that boat. It honestly seems like a boat carrying people fleeing from Venezuela.

They continue to escalate the threat and what is on that boat because their story makes zero sense. Also, this administration has proven to be inept. They make these shows of force but ultimately just look like idiots.

It's murder. It's murder of international citizens. There should be prosecutions depending on whose on that boat. I don't see prosecutions over cartel members despite the blatant illegality of it, but if it's not cartel members, the people making the orders need to be prosecuted.
 
Various cartels/gangs are now designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations..drug smugglers are then terrorists
 
j brown's body said:
Shouldn't the president be in the loop, or is the government the Mafia now?
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Yes, in the loop as it were.

More than in the loop however. Potus/C'nC would need to authorize deadly force outside of self defense against foreign nationals/citizens for the Navy to go ahead and blast 'em as it did do.

Also, whoever is in command of the task force holding at the line of Venezuela territorial waters could have a standing order by superiors to blast any "drug fast boat" it may encounter. And not have anything more as orders to use force for the time being.

Important to the mission to eventually reduce drug production, the Navy welcomed the opportunity is was looking for to blast a "drugboat" and those aboard with cargo to smithereens, armed or unarmed. This violent act announced explosively the presence of the task force and its orders to be destructive against drug production and lethal for the many civilians involved.

The silence is deafening by governments of the region and throughout Europe. They're just not too upset about this if at all.
 
Risky Thicket said:
It was lawful or it was not. Plain and simple.

www.justsecurity.org

The Many Ways in Which the Caribbean Strike was Unlawful

Legal expert on domestic authority and law most relevant to the US strike on alleged Venezuelan drug boat
www.justsecurity.org www.justsecurity.org
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shrug...

I almost don't care. It doesn't chap my ass when terrorists get killed. I don't have an opinion on whether it was lawful or not. I'll leave that to the government or, ultimately, to the judicial system.
 
Well hard to say who would decide whether it was illegal or not since it happened in international waters.

And as we know well from decades of war the United States is never held accountable for war crimes.

Just another slab of red meat for his redneck base.

Everyone knows the majority of drugs coming into America go right through our border checkpoints in containers or trailers. Sure some still comes by boat and by mules across the southern. Border but not the majority.

The majority of drugs are smuggled into the United States via passenger vehicles, commercial trucks, and other transport methods that pass through official land ports of entry (POEs) along the U.S.-Mexico border.
 
TangoNoCash said:
Most people would just call that straight up murder.
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Remind me. Was it justified, or murder, when Obama ordered dozens (hundreds?) of drone attacks in Yemen, killing hundreds of civilians?
 
Noodlegawd said:
Remind me. Was it justified, or murder, when Obama ordered dozens (hundreds?) of drone attacks in Yemen, killing hundreds of civilians?
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I’m not familiar with the incident but if he was targeting civilians I would say that’s also murder.
 
No. Add another criminal act to the treasonous shit stain.
 
Noodlegawd said:
Remind me. Was it justified, or murder, when Obama ordered dozens (hundreds?) of drone attacks in Yemen, killing hundreds of civilians?
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Murder, obviously. Obama's a bigger criminal than Trump, but that doesn't make Trump not a criminal
 
TangoNoCash said:
Most people would just call that straight up murder.
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Yep, Fascist trump desperately wants to be one of the dictator/authoritarian club, one of the Big Boys. He's just earning his war criminal status, of course without having to use any brains, brawn or courage. After all, he is an ignorant weak coward. The orange piece of shit has a lot of blood on his hands, his tiny sore foul hands.
 
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